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One observation, which doesn't seem that far from the mark, is that the more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to act in a 'christian' way.

 

The churchgoers who routinely park across my mother's driveway, blocking her in, just because they don't want to walk any further to church being one of many examples.

 

Consider the flames fanned.

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9 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

If only more of you folk understood this, perhaps fewer little boys' lives would be ruined, eh? :P

Peadophillia is deplorable and I pray that no children are subjected to abuse in any circumstances.

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Just now, Nod.E said:

I said nothing about judgements of what is good or bad within each culture being 'right'.

 

Cultures and subcultures will make that decision for themselves, not some all seeing super power.

 

What's the point in rallying, debating, and protesting if none of it matters and 'god has a plan'?

 

Might as well sit back and let the plan happen. Oh wait, it won't, because we govern ourselves. Our actions. Our belief systems. Our laws. Everything.

 

Glad you brought slavery up actually. Religion is a man-made construct built for the control of mass populations. It's built for the very point I just raised. To keep people dosile.

 

The percentage of people in the states with no religion has doubled since the 70s and look at the chaos. America is waking up and it's getting messy.

 

So you are agreeing that without God, evil doesn’t exist and good and bad is just subjective based on a culture? That’s fine, that’s my point. You can either believe in objective morality and accept there has to be a God or disregard objective morality and thus you don’t need a God. You can’t say within logical cohesion that murdering babies is objectively wrong but there is no absolute standard.

 

Christianity is a man made construct to control people? Exactly who did the apostles control before their untimely gruesome executions? 
 

Since the enlightenment we have killed more people than the entire history of humanity put together. Are you trying to suggest we are more moral

now most people don’t believe in god? 😂

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57 minutes ago, Benguin said:

So you are agreeing that without God, evil doesn’t exist and good and bad is just subjective based on a culture? That’s fine, that’s my point. You can either believe in objective morality and accept there has to be a God or disregard objective morality and thus you don’t need a God. You can’t say within logical cohesion that murdering babies is objectively wrong but there is no absolute standard.

 

Christianity is a man made construct to control people? Exactly who did the apostles control before their untimely gruesome executions? 
 

Since the enlightenment we have killed more people than the entire history of humanity put together. Are you trying to suggest we are more moral

now most people don’t believe in god? 😂

'Evil' is a weird word. Nobody is born evil. People become fvcked up and do fvcked up sh*t. I don't subscribe to the notion that people are evil.

 

There will always be an element of subjectivity. I.e. us in the west wouldn't eat dog, but eating cows is fine. It's subjective and based on the culture. However there are certain things that most people can agree is morally wrong. In the same way most of us can agree blue is blue, and red is red, some things become obvious.

 

Religion, not Christianity, was popularised to control mass populations.

 

I'm not suggesting people are more moral now. I'm arguing people are less willing now than they were to be repressed. Which causes anger. Which causes chaos and heanous acts.

 

Most religions teach a good moral code. I can agree with that without subscribing to the core beliefs of a given religion.

Edited by Nod.E
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1 minute ago, Nod.E said:

'Evil' is a weird word. Nobody is born evil. People become fvcked up and do fvcked up sh*t. I don't subscribe to the notion that people are evil.

 

There will always be an element of subjectivity. I.e. us in the west wouldn't eat dog, but eating cows is fine. It's subjective and bases on the culture. However there are certain things that most people can agree is morally wrong. In the same way most of us can agree blue is blue, and red is red, some things become obvious.

 

Religion, not Christianity, was popularised to control mass populations.

 

I'm not suggesting people are more moral now. I'm arguing people are less willing now than they were to be repressed. Which causes anger. Which causes chaos and heanous acts.

 

Most religions teach a good moral code. I can agree with that without subscribing to the core beliefs of a given religion.

You’re missing the point. I’m not saying that you need religion to be moral. You do however need an absolute standard of morality for something to be absolutely wrong. 
 

I recommend this atheist youtuber who criticises Christopher Hitchens on moral philosophy, as he often did the same as what you’re doing now. 


 

I’m failing to see any connection between the creators of Christianity and control. You can argue that the church controls people now but you cannot say it was created to control people, otherwise there would be evidence that the early church controlled people and gained things. The evidence on the other hand is that they were oppressed and executed. 

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I believe there should be a level of respect shown to others beliefs in this thread. Just as in the depression thread people may go there to express their feelings, the same may apply here. No one should be slated, ridiculed or have the piss taken out of them for having religious beliefs, as that may be the one thing that keeps them going through life. 

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2 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

I believe there should be a level of respect shown to others beliefs in this thread. Just as in the depression thread people may go there to express their feelings, the same may apply here. No one should be slated, ridiculed or have the piss taken out of them for having religious beliefs, as that may be the one thing that keeps them going through life. 

I appreciate this and it’s nice of you to say it. As Christians we absolutely expect to be ridiculed for our beliefs though, the bible tells us that people will hate us because they hate god. 
 

People are welcome to ridicule me, I will as the bible commands “turn the other cheek.” I would though encourage anyone who wants to ridicule to challenge themselves and engage in the conversation. Ridicule sometimes is bred from a fear of being wrong about ones beliefs. Don’t stay in that echo chamber of unbelief, challenge yourself. No one is beyond salvation. 

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13 minutes ago, Izzy said:

The most important thing for me is "do good to others as you would have them do unto you" - and you don't have to be religious to practice that.

I'm very much on the fence with religion but I agree with that.

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22 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Totally agree Harry.

 

I'm a Christian and a regular(ish) church goer. My faith is very personal to me and I wouldn't expect anyone else to understand my religious beliefs and equally I'll never go out of my way to impose them on others - live and let live.

 

I admire @Benguin for his strong beliefs although I think he can be a little clumsy in articulating them sometimes which clearly winds some people up. I also admire those who don't believe and want some sort of 'proof' first - I totally get that too.

 

The most important thing for me is "do good to others as you would have them do unto you" - and you don't have to be religious to practice that.

 

Yep.

 

I'll add that if there is indeed a deity that exists and acts in a way we can even come close to comprehending (which is a discussion in of itself) then I'd hope that it would not require that we think of It to be rewarded, but just that we think.

Edited by leicsmac
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I do apologise if people get wound up by my posts. If a Christian response to a theological question winds you up, might I suggest not asking a Christian a theological question? 

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1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

I ain't getting into this argument, especially with a born again christian about  but, i bet any money,  you live your life to christian principles and morals. 

 

Do you really think that principals and morals didn't exist prior to some bloke writing a bedtime story? Was everyone just an utter evil bastard before, or did people live by a certain code of conduct developed over 1000's of years. 

 

All Christianity did was compile a bunch of them.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, FerrisBueller said:

Just let them be, people believe in all sorts to help them through life. Some people still believe in Brexit...

That's true.

Some people still believe in socialism.

Some people still believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Some people still believe if you cross your eyes, you'll stay that way forever.

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5 minutes ago, Babylon said:

 

Do you really think that principals and morals didn't exist prior to some bloke writing a bedtime story? Was everyone just an utter evil bastard before, or did people live by a certain code of conduct developed over 1000's of years. 

 

All Christianity did was compile a bunch of them.

 

 

You are diverting the actual problem with moral philosophy here either intentionally or through ignorance.

 

it is not a question as to whether an atheist can be moral (of course they can) but rather can an atheist ground objective morality without God. 
 

To achieve this you would either need to admit that there is no such thing as objective morality and even though I think murdering babies evil, it is not. Or you would need to show how we can ground that murdering babies is always evil without God.

 

Saying “ I don’t need religion to be moral” is an answer to an entirely different question.

 

 

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