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2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

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Just now, Foxy-Lady said:

Please tell me you're not proposing that Beaglehole should be Rodgers successor...?!?  :D

lol no quite the opposite.

 

In many ways i've always found it a shame that our go to caretaker has been Mike Stowell. Not knocking him as a coach, but really the U23/U18 managers should be ready to step up for a few games if required IMO

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2 hours ago, UHDrive said:

Maybe we should demote BR to replace Steve Beaglehole in the role he did at chelsea and run the development teams. Sorted 👍

Are you suggesting role reversal for BR and Beaglehole??   If so, at least we would have some amazing young talent coming through to help in our Div 1 relegation fight...! :D

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2 hours ago, AjcW said:

The best youth coaches go on to be managers and first team coaches in their own right. We literally have one in charge of us lol 

 

Steve Cooper is a good example, from Liverpool to the England set up and now Manager at Swansea. 

 

Our Steve hasn't moved up, down or out in what? 18 years? That's the sign of a very comfortable man who knows he's onto a good thing. How does that translate onto the players ambition wise when you're coached by someone who has seemingly never seaked to better themselves? Come on now we've all worked with that one person in the office who is a bit shit but has been there 20 years and the company has no idea how to move them on lol 

 

I personally want us to have coaches at that level who are regularly interviewed for Championship management jobs, we SHOULD be having to replace them every couple of years and we should be proud of that fact. 

 

Look at the way it often works in Germany and Spain where the B-Team boss ends up being in charge of the first team eventually, wouldn't it be great if we could call upon that too? And they could then promote the talent they had been nurturing in the youth set up.

...I  would rather keep a Coach that is excellent than having to replace him every two year's!!

  So long as he brings innovation and is open mind in relation to new ideas and their implementation then I want that Coach to be here.

  Managers tend to last for about two years and what you would want is the continuity in regards to the academy players and not all Coaches are looking any further than where they feel they are adding value and are valued themselves. 

  Idiakez was a revered Coach at one time but we lost him and he went on to Derby then Luton, I would not be surprised if he did not have a hand in getting James Justin to our club.

  His departure I believe really set us back.

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Just now, sacreblueits442 said:

...I  would rather keep a Coach that is excellent than having to replace him every two year's!!

  So long as he brings innovation and is open mind in relation to new ideas and their implementation then I want that Coach to be here.

  Managers tend to last for about two years and what you would want is the continuity in regards to the academy players and not all Coaches are looking any further than where they feel they are adding value and are valued themselves. 

  Idiakez was a revered Coach at one time but we lost him and he went on to Derby then Luton, I would not be surprised if he did not have a hand in getting James Justin to our club.

  His departure I believe really set us back.

Leicester, Derby, Luton. That's not an upward trajectory. If he was that good, surely a bigger club would be employing him? 

 

I do feel some people in this thread are looking for things to moan about. In truth our academy is not doing bad. 

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1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Leicester, Derby, Luton. That's not an upward trajectory. If he was that good, surely a bigger club would be employing him? 

 

I do feel some people in this thread are looking for things to moan about. In truth our academy is not doing bad. 

. .he is now a manager in the Spanish third tier!!!

 I was not looking at the trajectory of Coaches, what I am saying is if you have a great Coach keep him anyway you can.

  You do not have to be at a big club to be an outstanding Coach.

  If you took a poll regarding Dario Gradi who has stayed at Crewe for what seems like forever and you will see the esteem his coaching abilities are held in.

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3 hours ago, Webbo said:

Leicester, Derby, Luton. That's not an upward trajectory. If he was that good, surely a bigger club would be employing him? 

 

I do feel some people in this thread are looking for things to moan about. In truth our academy is not doing bad

With respect our academy is pretty awful. Recruitment of players is one of the massive drawbacks right now and is an issue that I think requires a change in management structure and to include BR in decision making. Our development squad has been laid bare now that KDH, Muskwe and Wright have gone on loan to mediocre teams for experience (another issue)

 

If you look around at Chelsea's, Man City's and Arsenals development squads not only are they bringing in players from far and wide, but they are making money on those players they've brought in after they have been developed (aside from the ones they retain for first team action). We have nothing like that and moving into a state of the art training ground with the development squads in mind is absolutely pointless unless they change the way they source the players but moreso keep the squads lean and fit and with players ages not exceeding the teams they are assigned too.

 

Take into account all of the above and you have to point the finger at who is running the show (Rudkin etc) and to be in no doubt that we have dead wood in terms of coaches that need moving on and replaced.

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1 minute ago, UHDrive said:

With respect our academy is pretty awful. Recruitment of players is one of the massive drawbacks right now and is an issue that I think requires a change in management structure and to include BR in decision making. Our development squad has been laid bare now that KDH, Muskwe and Wright have gone on loan to mediocre teams for experience (another issue)

 

If you look around at Chelsea's, Man City's and Arsenals development squads not only are they bringing in players from far and wide, but they are making money on those players they've brought in after they have been developed (aside from the ones they retain for first team action). We have nothing like that and moving into a state of the art training ground with the development squads in mind is absolutely pointless unless they change the way they source the players but moreso keep the squads lean and fit and with players ages not exceeding the teams they are assigned too.

 

Take into account all of the above and you have to point the finger at who is running the show (Rudkin etc) and to be in no doubt that we have dead wood in terms of coaches that need moving on and replaced.

I shouldn't really need to say this, but we're not Chelsea or Man City.

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3 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...I  would rather keep a Coach that is excellent than having to replace him every two year's!!

  So long as he brings innovation and is open mind in relation to new ideas and their implementation then I want that Coach to be here.

  Managers tend to last for about two years and what you would want is the continuity in regards to the academy players and not all Coaches are looking any further than where they feel they are adding value and are valued themselves. 

  Idiakez was a revered Coach at one time but we lost him and he went on to Derby then Luton, I would not be surprised if he did not have a hand in getting James Justin to our club.

  His departure I believe really set us back.

I think you've missed the point of the post you replied to.

 

@AjcW was saying that they wanted coaches that are in danger of being poached, as that means they're clearly good at what they do.

 

Obviously, you want to keep good coaches, but it's better to have one that people think could be a manager in the Championship, than one who isn't that good, isn't it?

 

If Idiakez has gone on to take the same, or a similar, role at clubs like Derby and Luton, then doesn't that tell you something about the level he's at?

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3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Since December.

New beginnings need a new approach. I think most members on FT would agree that there are too many players in the dev squad that are either too old or need to be on. Then work on sourcing talent.

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I appreciate that historically we've brought through a decent chunk of players in your Barnes, Chilwell, Hamza and potentially KDH, not to mention in recent memory Schlupp and Kingy - but I don't think you can blindly ignore the horrific style of football that the U23s have been playing, the reports of Beaglehole refusing players loans in order to win the PL2 a while back, and other such rumblings just due to past successes. Whether that's enough to say Beaglehole should be replaced is maybe up for debate, but I think it's fairly clear that we should be doing better in certain areas of the academy, especially with regards to playing style, given how the first team play.

 

We have been loaning players out a bit more this year than we had been and our average age of the U23 lineups have had fewer players in the 22-23 year old range with no future at the club as we did when we were playing the likes of Callum Elder, George Thomas and so on which I think is positive progress, but again I think the U23 team needs more changes to get more out of it, regardless of who is in charge of that. There's definitely been enough rumours about players being too technical and not physical enough for Beaglehole and therefore not transitioning through the U23 team on his say-so, as well as the PL2 rumours both of which don't exactly shine Beaglehole in a great light, so I can fully understand the desire to get someone new in with fresh and more contemporary ideas.

Edited by The_Rorab
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3 minutes ago, Raw Dykes said:

I think you've missed the point of the post you replied to.

 

@AjcW was saying that they wanted coaches that are in danger of being poached, as that means they're clearly good at what they do.

 

Obviously, you want to keep good coaches, but it's better to have one that people think could be a manager in the Championship, than one who isn't that good, isn't it?

 

If Idiakez has gone on to take the same, or a similar, role at clubs like Derby and Luton, then doesn't that tell you something about the level he's at?

...I can't judge Coaches in the manner of the more they are coveted by other teams, should be how they are valued!!!

Idiakez followed Pearson to go to Derby and I suspect that is how coaches operate as their tends to be a friendship prior to the teaming up with a manager, who they choose to follow.

  I do not wish to be constantly asking the questioning of " is he going this week" because of how your Coach is perceived outside of the club. Long term planning is the key to our success and I would rather have a Coach on a long term contract than one we are looking to replace after his first year. Managers bring in their own staff when they take up a position and for the Academy role there needs to be some kind of continuity.

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20 hours ago, Webbo said:

Tbf to our academy, VDC was the fourth home grown player to play for us this season. We've not long sold Chilwell for £50 million and KDH is getting rave reviews on loan.That's not a bad strike rate

VDC didn't come through our academy he is in his second year at the club

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30 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

VDC didn't come through our academy he is in his second year at the club

If you're going to be pedantic, he's still been improved by our academy staff. 

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26 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If you're going to be pedantic, he's still been improved by our academy staff. 

Now you’re  clutching ..... how much of him did you see before he arrived?  How do you know he’s been improved ? Against a brighton second string winger he did ok - no more, no less ..... I want to see a lot more of him to inform any judgement .......

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37 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Now you’re  clutching ..... how much of him did you see before he arrived?  How do you know he’s been improved ? Against a brighton second string winger he did ok - no more, no less ..... I want to see a lot more of him to inform any judgement .......

If he was that good Arsenal would have given him a contract. Its a bit pathetic to deny the academy any credit when we all know they would have been blamed if he had failed. 

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3 hours ago, Raw Dykes said:

 

If Idiakez has gone on to take the same, or a similar, role at clubs like Derby and Luton, then doesn't that tell you something about the level he's at?

Idiakez left to take 1st Team Assistant Mngr job at Derby alongside Pearson and then subsequently Head of Yth Development at Luton followed by Caretaker 1st team Assnt Mngr in their promotion season.

 

At leicester he was in charge of U16s only but wanted to carry on working with the players he had developed as they progressed onwards through to U23s (ie Barnes, Choudhoury, KDH, Thomas etc...)

 

Hopefully that should tell you something about the level he was at...?

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21 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If he was that good Arsenal would have given him a contract.   ..... 

It's quite possible that Arsenal's judgement of young players is not as good as ours.  Look no further for a comparative example than Saliba v Fofana, and their current league position offers no likelihood that their assessment of players is better than ours.

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6 hours ago, Raw Dykes said:

I think you've missed the point of the post you replied to.

 

@AjcW was saying that they wanted coaches that are in danger of being poached, as that means they're clearly good at what they do.

 

Obviously, you want to keep good coaches, but it's better to have one that people think could be a manager in the Championship, than one who isn't that good, isn't it?

 

If Idiakez has gone on to take the same, or a similar, role at clubs like Derby and Luton, then doesn't that tell you something about the level he's at?

tbf there's a big assumption there that idiakez or similar coaches even want to go on to become managers. they might just find working with younger players more rewarding

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10 minutes ago, blaaklint said:

tbf there's a big assumption there that idiakez or similar coaches even want to go on to become managers. they might just find working with younger players more rewarding

Not really. A coach could be signed by a bigger club to do the same role they were already doing.

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10 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

Anyone know who Dasilva and Mckirdy are?

 

Subs: Doherty, Abdulai, Ewing, Shade, Russ.

Not heard of them, not seen their names in the U18's I don't think. Was hoping Kian Pennant might get a chance with so many of the U23's now training with the first team.

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