US Presidential Election 2020

[foxile5 2,706]

2 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Im pretty sure... scumbag trump can phone ANY tv station in the world and get air time.

He is blocked because he is trying to overthrow democracy... his free speech is NOT restricted

 

This isn't about his freedom of speech more rule control of public narrative. 

 

Twitter have used public hate to insert themselves into the public and political narrative of the times. They shouldn't be doing that. 

[foxile5 2,706]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I see what you're saying but no, still not getting there.

 

Twitter isn't some be-all-end-all behemoth of communication and other platforms existing isn't by the by IMO - it's critical to the nature of this discussion. They may be dominant now (possibly), but it would take much less than some folks think to have another platform come along and gain a good market share too. For me, they aren't arbiters of free speech or discourse and I really don't think they should be considered to be - that is always the job and responsibility of elected officials. If they engage in the slippery slope that is being depicted here, then a populace will (most likely) reject them and find other platforms.

 

NB. If they had chosen to remove Sanders account because he was violating their ToS in some way and shown how he was doing it, then I would have agreed with their right to do it then too.

 

 

You might be right about the public rejecting them but I really think it'll be the opposite. The pessimist to your optimist. 

 

I'd wholeheartedly agree with you if it weren't for the timing of the whole affair. It seems too calculated. 

 

I do feel the need to say again - this comes from the backdrop of me finding trump politically and personally abhorrent. 

[ozleicester 7,487]

4 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

This isn't about his freedom of speech more rule control of public narrative. 

 

Twitter have used public hate to insert themselves into the public and political narrative of the times. They shouldn't be doing that. 

The Sun has being doing the same (worse) for years, no one is bitching about who they choose to allow voice and who they dont.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot 1,391]

It's all a bit bloody depressing we're having to have these conversations. The leader of the free world can't be on twitter because he's trying to murder politicians by riling up his mental fan base, even his own VP. Christ. 

Edited 13 January by Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot
.

[leicsmac 4,938]

5 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

You might be right about the public rejecting them but I really think it'll be the opposite. The pessimist to your optimist. 

 

I'd wholeheartedly agree with you if it weren't for the timing of the whole affair. It seems too calculated. 

 

I do feel the need to say again - this comes from the backdrop of me finding trump politically and personally abhorrent. 

Goodness knows I do have a certain amount of cynicism about people so I see where you're coming from and I'm not going to dismiss your fears as groundless.

 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[ozleicester 7,487]

By the way, equating Sanders supporting uprisings against police brutality and institutional racism.....and Trump trying to overthrow democracy is pretty crap.

[Fightforever 928]

1 hour ago, foxile5 said:

Whilst free speech isn't part of the terms of service of twitter the CEO and PR team are well aware of its impact. They'll point to their user agreement but they know they're removing a mouthpiece. They do this in the knowledge that it will be a popular move in terms of the cultural narrative. 

 

It's the timing that is of issue. He's been doing this for FOUR years. Why now? You can find multiple violations of the terms of service repeatedly. You can find other users espousing the same beliefs without any real concern. So, why now? Well, most likely, he's no longer president so has served the platform for the time being. It will make twitter the 'hero' in the public narrative. 

 

Whichever way you slice it Trump is an objectionable human and I entirely disagree with house politics. I need to make that clear before I say this - he has been, in effect, censored by a company who are also a huge megaphone for the 'cancel culture'. This is not a good thing to happen for democracy. It is a very, very bad thing that's been dressed up as a success of democracy. This has huge implications. Its 1984 style. 

I think what some people fail to understand Trump was not caused by twitter and other tech companies not banning him. His support hasn't really increased since 2016.

 

It really is just a PR stunt (twitter could have good intentions here but I doubt it since the 1% have never cared about anything other than their own pocket). I mentioned in a previous post on this thread it will backfire but not for the "it's 1984" type reasoning.

 

Regardless

 

Trump was caused by many factors rolled into one big mess.

 

Anyone who has the time study the Weimar republic and how it gave rise to Hitler. Even if Hitler wasn't given a voice it wouldn't have done much. Hitler took advantage of the problems the republic had and if he hadn't someone else would have.

 

Trump is doing the same. Taking advantage of a stagnant and increasingly unequal economy (the American economy has only grown at the same rate as inflation and most the little extra growth has been taken by the 1% if you look at living standards for the average Joe especially in republican areas they have decreased).

 

Also due to the rise of atheism and irreligiousity (most people need something to believe in). I think the social justice oppressed vs the oppressor narrative has somewhat filled the void of main stream religion amongst some and this new movement now calls white Christians evil backwards oppressors. This appalls Trump's base who are mostly devout white Christians. Trump comes along who makes the social justice advocates tear their hair out and trump himself who is part of a party that represents a more traditional christian view of the world and of course they vote for him. In my opinion this problem will only get worse especially with the economic pressures facing future American governments. If you have ever dealt with religious people you know how hard they cling to their beliefs this will cause problems down the line make no mistake

 

Trump supporters didn't come out the womb with a swastika tattooed on their arse. They were slowly tricked into thinking that the economic problems in America are due to the immigrants taking their jobs (in reality its more a consequence of globalization leaving them behind combined with Americas growing top 1%) then trump comes along calls the immigrants who they've been told are their main problem rapists and says we will build a wall to keep them out. He also pisses off "those love everyone apart from white Christians and open the borders lefties that let them in the first place". No wonder he won now using the situation that America was in to get people to vote for him now he is taking advantage and attempting to bend America to the will of his ego. If you fix the problems America has extremism will mostly go away with it. The alt right even in Europe only really started growing after the 2008 crash. That says a lot about what caused them to rise in my opinion. 

 

Biden needs to fix the problems America has (I mentioned the main ones but there are MUCH MORE problems that are equally as important) otherwise people like trump will come back and get even more support. And in my opinion due to people who support trump being pushed underground into un-moderated platforms like 4chan which have horrific ideas that make Trump supporters look like hippies. The form of "extremism" Trump has will come back much worse.

 

Most fail to realize that the world is much more nuanced than the media (who get money by selling click bait headlines that make the world seem like its ending remember) make it appear. Due to them seeing the world as a constant black and white Hollywood style good vs evil conflict (in my opinion due to an emotional based thinking process that places little emphasis on getting to the root cause of problems and rather trying to fit all the problems into a buzzword or just finger point at something they never liked anyway) when in reality things are much more complicated and nuanced.  

 

Banning Trump won't fix anything quote me on this in 12 years.

Edited 13 January by Fightforever
Hate using my phones keyboard I always make typos next time I come on this thread I am going to my PC

[Smudge 902]

39 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

I think what some people fail to understand Trump was not caused by twitter and other tech companies not banning him. His support hasn't really increased since 2016.

 

It really is just a PR stunt (twitter could have good intentions here but I doubt it since the 1% have never cared about anything other than their own pocket). I mentioned in a previous post on this thread it will backfire but not for the "it's 1984" type reasoning.

 

Regardless

 

Trump was caused by many factors rolled into one big mess.

 

Anyone who has the time study the Weimar republic and how it gave rise to Hitler. Even if Hitler wasn't given a voice it wouldn't have done much. Hitler took advantage of the problems the republic had and if he hadn't someone else would have.

 

Trump is doing the same. Taking advantage of a stagnant and increasingly unequal economy (the American economy has only grown at the same rate as inflation and most the little extra growth has been taken by the 1% if you look at living standards for the average Joe especially in republican areas they have decreased).

 

Also due to the rise of atheism and irreligiousity (most people need something to believe in). I think the social justice oppressed vs the oppressor narrative has somewhat filled the void of main stream religion amongst some and this new movement now calls white Christians evil backwards oppressors. This appalls Trump's base who are mostly devout white Christians. Trump comes along who makes the social justice advocates tear their hair out and trump himself who is part of a party that represents a more traditional christian view of the world and of course they vote for him. In my opinion this problem will only get worse especially with the economic pressures facing future American governments. If you have ever dealt with religious people you know how hard they cling to their beliefs this will cause problems down the line make no mistake

 

Trump supporters didn't come out the womb with a swastika tattooed on their arse. They were slowly tricked into thinking that the economic problems in America are due to the immigrants taking their jobs (in reality its more a consequence of globalization leaving them behind combined with Americas growing top 1%) then trump comes along calls the immigrants who they've been told are their main problem rapists and says we will build a wall to keep them out. He also pisses off "those love everyone apart from white Christians and open the borders lefties that let them in the first place". No wonder he won now using the situation that America was in to get people to vote for him now he is taking advantage and attempting to bend America to the will of his ego. If you fix the problems America has extremism will mostly go away with it. The alt right even in Europe only really started growing after the 2008 crash. That says a lot about what caused them to rise in my opinion. 

 

Biden needs to fix the problems America has (I mentioned the main ones but there are MUCH MORE problems that are equally as important) otherwise people like trump will come back and get even more support. And in my opinion due to people who support trump being pushed underground into un-moderated platforms like 4chan which have horrific ideas that make Trump supporters look like hippies. The form of "extremism" Trump has will come back much worse.

 

Most fail to realize that the world is much more nuanced than the media (who get money by selling click bait headlines that make the world seem like its ending remember) make it appear. Due to them seeing the world as a constant black and white Hollywood style good vs evil conflict (in my opinion due to an emotional based thinking process that places little emphasis on getting to the root cause of problems and rather trying to fit all the problems into a buzzword or just finger point at something they never liked anyway) when in reality things are much more complicated and nuanced.  

 

Banning Trump won't fix anything quote me on this in 12 years.

I have no idea what you just said. Could you precis that in one paragraph please.

Edited 13 January by Smudge

[Fightforever 928]

23 minutes ago, Smudge said:

I have no idea what you just said. Could you precis that in one paragraph please.

Part of the problem. Things are too complicated to shorten into a paragraph. Hence why Twitter is such a hell hole. You can't shorten the complicated political issues discussed on there into a few sentences without omitting important facts.

 

 

Trump and people like him were caused by a resistance from republican voters in Americas change in culture, the one top 1%, and globalization bleeding America dry. Problems within a society cause people like Trump and Hitler not letting people like him have a platform doesn't really do much since historically societal problems always manifest in more extreme governments . Banning him off twitter won't change anything and could possibly backfire. Trump supporters see Christian values they grew up with being ditched on mass along with immigrants they believe are taking their jobs and thus making them poorer spilling into America. They see an opportunist like trump say he will build a wall to keep the immigrants out and they see him pissing off the lefties who are opposed to christian values and they fall in love with him. People like Trump won't be stopped via censorship and it could make problems a lot worse. Due to reasons I have discussed in another post.

Edited 13 January by Fightforever

[leicsmac 4,938]

10 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

Trump and people like him were caused by a resistance from republican voters in Americas change in culture, the one top 1%, and globalization bleeding America dry. Problems within a society cause people like Trump and Hitler not letting people like him have a platform doesn't really do much since historically societal problems always manifest in more extreme governments . Banning him off twitter won't change anything and could possibly backfire. Trump supporters see Christian values they grew up with being ditched on mass along with immigrants they believe are taking their jobs and thus making them poorer spilling into America. They see an opportunist like trump say he will build a wall to keep the immigrants out and they see him pissing off the lefties who are opposed to christian values and they fall in love with him. People like Trump won't be stopped via censorship and it could make problems a lot worse. Due to reasons I have discussed in another post.

Assuming all that is true (and it could well be), what would be the best way to solve the problem that Trump tapped into, then? Because it does need to be solved - or at least mitigated.

[Fightforever 928]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Assuming all that is true (and it could well be), what would be the best way to solve the problem that Trump tapped into, then? Because it does need to be solved - or at least mitigated.

Ah now we get to the difficult part.

Extremism only tends to rise during times of stagnation/decline so you would have to fix the growing wealth inequality in America. I really do recommend you take a look into the rise of Hitler and try to draw comparisons to America today.

 

The typical trump voter is screwed in my opinion. Outsourcing and cheaper labor costs abroad mean that they don't really have any good jobs and the 1% keep getting richer.

What needs to happen is that there needs to be a huge re-distribution of wealth that aims to invest into these areas to give them decently paying jobs.

 

As for the cultural problems. I think they won't go away and will linger for a very long time. Social justice and republican/christian values don't mix and I don't think there is a way to please both sides. It's more or less a religious conflict and those never end well.

Edited 13 January by Fightforever

[leicsmac 4,938]

3 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

Ah now we get to the difficult part.

 

The typical trump voter is screwed in my opinion. Outsourcing and cheaper labor costs abroad mean that they don't really have any good jobs and the 1% keep getting richer.

What needs to happen is that there needs to be a huge re-distribution of wealth that aims to invest into these areas to give them decently paying jobs.

 

As for the cultural problems. I think they won't go away and will linger for a very long time. Social justice and republican/christian values don't mix and I don't think there is a way to please both sides.

Yeah, it's a conundrum.

 

Economically, I'd absolutely agree that there desperately needs to be provision for and investment for those people in areas that have been "left behind".

 

Culturally, I actually take a rather harsher line - AFAIC at least some of those "traditional Christian" values (or at least interpretations of them) involve viewing women as obedient chattel of men and anyone non-white as basically subhuman and thus having the right to have power over both. Such viewpoints are at the extreme end of the spectrum of values out there, but that they have any traction in the political sphere beyond mere thought at all is unacceptable to me and as such there is no need to "please both sides" here - one is completely in the wrong. Of course, negating the harm those beliefs can and do have on other people without disenfranchising a lot of people (itself unacceptable) is really bloody difficult too.

[Fightforever 928]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, it's a conundrum.

 

Economically, I'd absolutely agree that there desperately needs to be provision for and investment for those people in areas that have been "left behind".

 

Culturally, I actually take a rather harsher line - AFAIC at least some of those "traditional Christian" values (or at least interpretations of them) involve viewing women as obedient chattel of men and anyone non-white as basically subhuman and thus having the right to have power over both. Such viewpoints are at the extreme end of the spectrum of values out there, but that they have any traction in the political sphere beyond mere thought at all is unacceptable to me and as such there is no need to "please both sides" here - one is completely in the wrong. Of course, negating the harm those beliefs can and do have on other people without disenfranchising a lot of people (itself unacceptable) is really bloody difficult too.

I think that's a bit too far but I see what your getting at.

 

I think the problem is not so much that should we please both sides. Its the cost of not doing so religious people never change their minds so it will lead to unrest that will cripple America. In my opinion America needs to stay strong or else China will fill in the void and that will make things much worse. The facts of life are that you just don't always get what you want.

 

Cultural issues usually are secondary to economic issues. People usually suck up cultural issues if they have money in their pockets. Look it Islam in the UK for example. Most traditional Islamic values aren't compatible with the British ones but they will suck it up because of the fact that the standard of living is much better here than the countries that adhere to their values completely. Also if you look at the rise of the alt-right in Europe it only really started after the 2008 financial crash. I think if you solve the economic issues you will get to a point where people won't be looking to extremist ideology for answers as to why they are poorer then they were 20 years ago. 

[Fightforever 928]

28 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Assuming all that is true (and it could well be), what would be the best way to solve the problem that Trump tapped into, then? Because it does need to be solved - or at least mitigated.

A positive side to this is that once the older generation dies out most people who hold the toxic christian values would have died out anyway. The only problem is managing to hold America together for the next 20 years.

[leicsmac 4,938]

3 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

I think that's a bit too far but I see what your getting at.

 

I think the problem is not so much that should we please both sides. Its the cost of not doing so religious people never change their minds so it will lead to unrest that will cripple America. In my opinion America needs to stay strong or else China will fill in the void and that will make things much worse. The facts of life are that you just don't always get what you want.

 

Cultural issues usually are secondary to economic issues. People usually suck up cultural issues if they have money in their pockets. Look it Islam in the UK for example. Most traditional Islamic values aren't compatible with the British ones but they will suck it up because of the fact that the standard of living is much better here than the countries that adhere to their values completely. Also if you look at the rise of the alt-right in Europe it only really started after the 2008 financial crash. I think if you solve the economic issues you will get to a point where people won't be looking to extremist ideology for answers as to why they are poorer then they were 20 years ago. 

I think there's certainly something in that, which simplifies the solution somewhat. Wasn't it Bill Clinton who said "it's the economy, stupid"?

 

I do hope that helping some of the economic problems can allay some of the cultural ones, too.

[Fightforever 928]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think there's certainly something in that, which simplifies the solution somewhat. Wasn't it Bill Clinton who said "it's the economy, stupid"?

 

I do hope that helping some of the economic problems can allay some of the cultural ones, too.

I kind of have to I could honestly write a book on the subject at this rate. Plus my train of thought is strange no one can follow any of the larger posts I make. But historically when people have money in their pockets everything else is a minor issue.

Edited 13 January by Fightforever

[leicsmac 4,938]

5 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

I kind of have to I could honestly write a book on the subject at this rate. Plus my train of thought is strange no one can follow any of the larger posts I make. But historically when people have money in their pockets everything else is a minor issue.

If you've ever read any of the Discworld books, this is pretty much the guiding philosophy of Lord Vetinari and why he's ruled Ankh-Morpork for so long. And I think he's probably spot on.

[Fightforever 928]

Just now, leicsmac said:

If you've ever read any of the Discworld books, this is pretty much the guiding philosophy of Lord Vetinari and why he's ruled Ankh-Morpork for so long. And I think he's probably spot on.

Never read them but for thanks for the suggestion.

[Smudge 902]

1 minute ago, Fightforever said:

I kind of have to I could honestly write a book on the subject at this rate. Plus my train of thought is strange no one can follow any of the larger posts I make. But historically when people have money in their pockets everything else is a minor issue.

 

[SO1 1,727]

10 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

I kind of have to I could honestly write a book on the subject at this rate. Plus my train of thought is strange no one can follow any of the larger posts I make. But historically when people have money in their pockets everything else is a minor issue.

I followed it just fine. Probably because I'm familiar with the topic and argument. Your statement is as concise as it can be. Thank you for writing so clearly.

[Buce 12,238]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I think there's certainly something in that, which simplifies the solution somewhat. Wasn't it Bill Clinton who said "it's the economy, stupid"?

 

I do hope that helping some of the economic problems can allay some of the cultural ones, too.

 

James Carville

[Milo 2,471]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Assuming all that is true (and it could well be), what would be the best way to solve the problem that Trump tapped into, then? Because it does need to be solved - or at least mitigated.

It would be great if it could be solved peacefully - but maybe it's beyond that.

 

America is a pretty young country - a petulant teen to our grumpy old great grandfather.

 

Maybe there is a kind of a natural ending of the United States of America and they need to do what the USSR did, or even go down the Yugoslavia route (preferably without the carnage).  

 

I doubt it will happen, tbh - but it's surely worth a thought.  

[Fightforever 928]

57 minutes ago, Milo said:

It would be great if it could be solved peacefully - but maybe it's beyond that.

 

America is a pretty young country - a petulant teen to our grumpy old great grandfather.

 

Maybe there is a kind of a natural ending of the United States of America and they need to do what the USSR did, or even go down the Yugoslavia route (preferably without the carnage).  

 

I doubt it will happen, tbh - but it's surely worth a thought.  

No it won't. Cultural problems rarely last that long. Its mostly the older people clinging onto these beliefs. They will eventaully die out and be replaced by younger people at the voting booth. The problem is keeping America functional untill they die off.

[HighPeakFox 12,202]

18 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

No it won't. Cultural problems rarely last that long. Its mostly the older people clinging onto these beliefs. They will eventaully die out and be replaced by younger people at the voting booth. The problem is keeping America functional untill they die off.

I don't even think it's that simple. There is generations of prejudice and hatred deeply imbedded in huge swathes of the USA, in much the same way as we have generations of deference to the rich/nobility in this country. 

[Fightforever 928]

41 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I don't even think it's that simple. There is generations of prejudice and hatred deeply imbedded in huge swathes of the USA, in much the same way as we have generations of deference to the rich/nobility in this country. 

 

the younger you go the less red america is. 20 years on and all of a sudden you start to see the American political paradigm shift. The GOP must essentially adapt or eventually die.