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US Presidential Election 2020

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8 minutes ago, SO1 said:

But you at least have affordable Health Care.:)

There are millions who didn't vote for Trump or Biden who have a say in this as well. How this gets solved would be for the government to care for all its citizens. Franklin Roosevelt style would be a good start. Take that 740 billion we just gave to the military and look after the people . Not just the rich corrupt corporations and the people who enable them (lobbyists and elected representatives etc.).

 

Why can't our government do the right thing? Working people are fighting for their lives right now and have been since Reagan and Clinton flushed them down the toilet.

Its just the fact that you are TARGET to our WAITROSE. You are much bigger, your errors make more noise and make more mess, and take bloody ages to clear up.  :D

 

Neither Government emerges from recent times with gold stars  :(

 

Returning to the original topic for the moment, I think what you reasonably request is no longer feasible, there is no longer a single unifying point of normality/acceptance.

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45 minutes ago, SO1 said:

This is beyond Trump. My fear is the big picture or how this works out for the person on the street.

After 9/11 I'm suspect of everything my government tries to control and then turns into a way to criminalize its citizens.

I hear you. Listen, I am suspect of everything your government has done since way before that. In my lifetime alone I've lost count of the illegal invasions and overthrows of democratically elected leaders that weren't friendly to US interests. And don't get me started on US bases abroad - the US could quite easily crush our country if it so desired.

Edited by HighPeakFox
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6 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Its just the fact that you are TARGET to our WAITROSE. You are much bigger, your errors make more noise and make more mess, and take bloody ages to clear up.  :D

 

Neither Government emerges from recent times with gold stars  :(

 

Returning to the original topic for the moment, I think what you reasonably request is no longer feasible, there is no longer a single unifying point of normality/acceptance.

We've both had our turn at the trough(empire) so don't deny us our opportunity to throw some of our remaining  sxxt.:D

Perhaps its just time to bury my head in the sand. Onwards and Backwards.

 

Its feasible. Just on a smaller scale and more localized. I have enormous faith in my community to bind together to create solutions for all of us. Not easy but "necessity is the mother of invention". A different economic order must be created. Something that contains the old with the new.

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1 hour ago, SO1 said:

I wasn't being in jest. People perceive the internet/twitter to be a place of free speech. Shut that down and its seen by me and others as an abuse of power and a shutting down of peaceful dissent. Slowly but surely dissent(anywhere) is being criminalized. That's whats behind my posting of the Kennedy quote.

 

Everywhere I look in the world peaceful protests are being met with violent resistance by governments. Little being covered by mainstream media or news outlets on the internet. Where else does dissent go if you have 80 million people with no voice? The only place is supposed to be government and no one listens or cares.

Thanks for your rational comments.

 

Except when they do cover it it's mainstream lies and actually antifa were there being incredibly violent.  You yourself only recently said:

3 hours ago, SO1 said:

After watching the riots, police precincts and miscellaneous businesses destroyed this summer only to see this new riot turned into 9/11 seems the height of hypocrisy. Like watching people turn into an idea(Fascism) which they fear the most.

So you clearly buy into the idea that BLM was more aggressive than peaceful which makes your complaint come across a little disingenuous to me.

 

Besides, this one here wasn't a peaceful protest, it was an attack on your democracy. To hopefully avoid getting muzzled again I'll provide verification of what I'm saying so you and the mods can see it's not hysterical hyperbole trying to wind people up, but here are some solid facts about what occurred after the mob moved from the rally to join the smaller gathering:  They stormed into the capitol building, fighting police officers and smashing up the building to get in**.  There's footage of a mob using the stars and stripes of all things to bludgeon an officer on the ground**, in another well-reported incident Officer Sicknick got beaten to death supposedly with a fire extinguisher (blue lives matter though was always code for black lives don't to a lot of these people).  A woman got shot in the neck and later died for trying to break through the final barricade before a room that senators were actively occupying.  Elsewhere the mob smeared faeces on the walls and urinated in representatives' offices and stole laptops with potential sensitive information on them.  Then there's the chants of "hang Mike Pence", the presence of a (presumably symbolic going by the shoddy build quality) noose on capitol hill. men with zip-cuffs for goodness sake.  Now, not everybody was out to cause trouble that day but enough were, if they had been successful it doesn't even bear thinking about.  Nonetheless 5 people still died as a result of this one incident. 

 

My opinion:

 

At the very least they wanted to stop the result from being validated, do you understand what I'm saying here?  Subversion of your democracy was their bare minimum expectation and all because of a cavalcade of lies about fraudulent elections was allowed to be spewed over years and years and years.  I know you hurt for the disaffected and the marginalised, and those are very real concerns but that's not what this fight was about.  This fight was about "counting all the real votes", it was refusal to accept an election result.  There were no placards demanding better jobs, better healthcare, or anything else policy related, there was only the one clear goal of preventing the final count and, to play the broken record one final time, that's an attack on your democratic process.  Don't let right-wing demagogues try to portray it as something it wasn't because they're going to be going into overdrive on this one.

 

**The following videos contain distressing scenes and are probably NSFW, one is of a standoff in a hallway between the mob and police, the second is the policeman being beaten by flags while he's incapacitated on the ground.  Mods pls delete if inappropriate, I'm just trying to back up what I've said with evidence.

 

Edited by Carl the Llama
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9 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I hear you. Listen, I am suspect of everything your government has done since way before that. In my lifetime alone I've lost count of the illegal invasions and overthrows of democratically elected leaders that weren't friendly to US interests. And don't get me started on US bases abroad - the US could quite easily crush our country if it so desired.

I'm listening. Always have and I always will.

People who think outside of boxes are why I even show up in this thread. The behavior of my government towards its people and the world is such a huge part of what is going on now. History has consequences.

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51 minutes ago, SO1 said:

I'm listening. Always have and I always will.

People who think outside of boxes are why I even show up in this thread. The behavior of my government towards its people and the world is such a huge part of what is going on now. History has consequences.

If both our nations were less proud of their (past in our case) ability to invade and conquer others, I think the world would probably be a slightly better place.

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On 11/01/2021 at 14:14, leicsmac said:

"...Donnie was cutting every link between himself and the botched election but it had nothing to do with me...

 

....made him sick to have to turn over favours to the guys who messed up the Capitol, he'd rather whack 'em."

Brilliant . Thanks a lot . I now have to watch it again ( for the umpteenth time ) and I’ve got some important s *** to take care of lol

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On 11/01/2021 at 15:18, Izzy said:

Indeed.

 

The sad thing is that Turnberry (one of our best Open venues IMO) will probably never be awarded the Open again while Trump owns it.

It’s an strange world we live in that the open won’t be returning to Turnberry because of Trump ... however the World Cup can be hosted in Qatar and the F1 Can be hosted in China. . . Need I say more?

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11 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

Are people aware that Twitter, Facebook and other social media platforms are in fact private entities and not government projects right? Why are we talking about free speech and liberty when it’s never ever applied to private companies? 


Well that’s presumably part of the problem and why it has caused concern in Europe, despite the fact that next to nobody important will be mourning the loss of this particular Twitter account here. That private companies are, in some ways, more powerful than governments because they have a monopoly on what is pretty much a public good but with little oversight, is much more the problem than just the  basic free speech argument.
 

There’s a disconnect between Europe and the US on how to regulate big tech firms. Jumping into bed with Silicon Valley giants on this occasion, at least partly because the actions are politically agreeable, could be risky and so it’s good that the murmurings from key figures is against this.

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1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:


Well that’s presumably part of the problem and why it has caused concern in Europe, despite the fact that next to nobody important will be mourning the loss of this particular Twitter account here. That private companies are, in some ways, more powerful than governments because they have a monopoly on what is pretty much a public good but with little oversight, is much more the problem than just the  basic free speech argument.
 

Whilst free speech isn't part of the terms of service of twitter the CEO and PR team are well aware of its impact. They'll point to their user agreement but they know they're removing a mouthpiece. They do this in the knowledge that it will be a popular move in terms of the cultural narrative. 

 

It's the timing that is of issue. He's been doing this for FOUR years. Why now? You can find multiple violations of the terms of service repeatedly. You can find other users espousing the same beliefs without any real concern. So, why now? Well, most likely, he's no longer president so has served the platform for the time being. It will make twitter the 'hero' in the public narrative. 

 

Whichever way you slice it Trump is an objectionable human and I entirely disagree with house politics. I need to make that clear before I say this - he has been, in effect, censored by a company who are also a huge megaphone for the 'cancel culture'. This is not a good thing to happen for democracy. It is a very, very bad thing that's been dressed up as a success of democracy. This has huge implications. Its 1984 style. 

Edited by foxile5
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17 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Whilst free speech isn't part of the terms of service of twitter the CEO and PR team are well aware of its impact. They'll point to their user agreement but they know they're removing a mouthpiece. They do this in the knowledge that it will be a popular move in terms of the cultural narrative. 

 

It's the timing that is of issue. He's been doing this for FOUR years. Why now? You can find multiple violations of the terms of service repeatedly. You can find other users espousing the same beliefs without any real concern. So, why now? Well, most likely, he's no longer president so has served the platform for the time being. It will make twitter the 'hero' in the public narrative. 

 

Whichever way you slice it Trump is an objectionable human and I entirely disagree with house politics. I need to make that clear before I say this - he has been, in effect, censored by a company who are also a huge megaphone for the 'cancel culture'. This is not a good thing to happen for democracy. It is a very, very bad thing that's been dressed up as a success of democracy. This has huge implications. Its 1984 style. 

Totally agree that the timing definitely suits Twitters self-interest and that is why they've done it now rather than before.

 

Still disagree that such actions constitute "censorship" and that it's somehow bad for democracy/an Orwellian slippery slope - the man is the President of the USA (at least for the next seven days), he has multiple platforms from which he could address anyone he wanted available to him.

 

As above, the government isn't arresting him for what he's saying or what he's thinking - people are just choosing, now, not to listen to it.

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9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Totally agree that the timing definitely suits Twitters self-interest and that is why they've done it now rather than before.

 

Still disagree that such actions constitute "censorship" and that it's somehow bad for democracy/an Orwellian slippery slope - the man is the President of the USA (at least for the next seven days), he has multiple platforms from which he could address anyone he wanted available to him.

 

As above, the government isn't arresting him for what he's saying or what he's thinking - people are just choosing, now, not to listen to it.

Oh he does have multiple platforms but that was THE ONE for him. They knew what they were doing. 

 

Put another way. What if, in the wake of George Floyd's death and subsequent protests, twitter banned people like Sanders for decrying the actions of the police. Those kinds of rallying cries led to protests and, inevitably, violence. Twitter didn't ban and remove for that - it was a positive in the cultural narrative and they would've damaged their standing. However, now there is precedent. 

 

Twitter have seized control as arbiter for public discourse in a small but significant way. Yes there are other platforms but that's by the by. Theirs is the dominant voice in the American public and political forum and their decision here isn't going to end with Trump. They've done something a lot of folk globally will support - but that's how stuff like this starts. 

Edited by foxile5
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Im pretty sure... scumbag trump can phone ANY tv station in the world and get air time.

He is blocked because he is trying to overthrow democracy... his free speech is NOT restricted

 

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8 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Oh he does have multiple platforms but that was THE ONE for him. They knew what they were doing. 

 

Put another way. What if, in the wake of George Floyd's death and subsequent protests, twitter banned people like Sanders for decrying the actions of the police. Those kinds of rallying cries led to protests and, inevitably, violence. Twitter didn't ban and remove for that - it was a positive in the cultural narrative and they would've damaged their standing. However, now there is precedent. 

 

Twitter have seized control as arbiter for public discourse in a small but significant way. Yes there are other platforms but that's by the by. Theirs is the dominant voice in the American public and political forum and their decision here isn't going to end with Trump. They've done something a lot of folk globally will support - but that's how stuff like this starts. 

I see what you're saying but no, still not getting there.

 

Twitter isn't some be-all-end-all behemoth of communication and other platforms existing isn't by the by IMO - it's critical to the nature of this discussion. They may be dominant now (possibly), but it would take much less than some folks think to have another platform come along and gain a good market share too. For me, they aren't arbiters of free speech or discourse and I really don't think they should be considered to be - that is always the job and responsibility of elected officials. If they engage in the slippery slope that is being depicted here, then a populace will (most likely) reject them and find other platforms.

 

NB. If they had chosen to remove Sanders account because he was violating their ToS in some way and shown how he was doing it, then I would have agreed with their right to do it then too.

 

 

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