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Rodgers due respect

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Just now, Mike Oxlong said:

You can give Brendan respect for his broad achievements and still criticise aspects of what he has done or instances of his decision making.  It doesn’t have to be either/or. The two are not mutually exclusive. 

Yeah this is my point made more eloquently and in fewer words. I want him here and think we can proud to have him as our gaffer but still recognise his faults without someone piping up with 'we were in league 1 ten years ago, what do you expect' or similar nonsense

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1 minute ago, foxfanazer said:

I think maybe you're being a little sensitive now mate as I wasn't talking about you, haven't seen your posts in this thread tbh. 

 

'bottler' is just one of those lazy throwaway football buzz words. Not getting over the line last year isn't something I'm willing to completely forget as we should've done enough to get over the line. This season he's got valid excuses due to the packed schedule and injury crisis. I do feel like he's always had people making excuses for any faults he's made here but that's hardly his fault. 

 

Anyway this is a fantastic forum full of posters from all walks of life with differing levels of optimism and tolerance etc. Would just like to see a bit more respectful debate at times 

Not seen much if any disrespectful debate tbh, but then again I tend to just get on with it. Like you saying then, I am a little sensitive, just made me laugh. It's all banter at the end of the day, mixed with genuine opposing views. 

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7 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

The inferior squads finished 9th, 9th and 12th.

 

Rodgers with a superior squad has finished 5th and currently 3rd. 

 

Compare that to the squads of Man U, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool, Spurs and perhaps even Arsenal (on paper)... would you not say that is an achievement and perhaps even a little better than our current squad is expected to finish (on paper)? 

 

Surely at the very least, you would admit a 5th and 3rd place is in line with superior expectations?

 

5th is good in isolation but in the context of throwing away 15 points to United, not so good. I appreciate the team did so well to begin with but still....

 

If we finish 3rd then I will give the so much credit. I've said before if he gets us top 4 and wins us a cup then IMO he will go down as our second greatest manager ever after Ranieri.

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6 minutes ago, Koke said:

The reason I personally sometimes is critical of Rodgers is because of the squad he has. Others have pointed  out our previous league finishes but failed to mention previous managers had inferior squads. With the squad we have and the elite level salary we're paying our manager, it is not unreasonable to expect a lot more than we usually do. 

 

Puel was working with Iborra, Silva, Gray, Slimani etc. Shakespeare was working with an aging Morgan, Simpson, Fuchs etc. 

 

*I accept our current injury crisis and I'm not blaming BR for that.

Everyone has a different take on things, and I like reading all views as sometimes it does make you think, and on occasion sympathise with someones point of view. 

 

I respect BR for what he has done in 2 seasons,  and do think he has over achieved with what he has available. 

 

As a manager the praise and criticism go hand in hand, he could be the highest paid manager in the world it wont change our injury stats or the inconsistency caused by the injuries, but what I admire about him is his graciousness in defeat, and an acceptance of criticism for team selection (Slavia Prague game). He wants to win, and that's important I just hope he can satisfy that need to win by staying and doing it with the Foxes, and isnt tempted by bigger clubs with more resources ie cash to buy those players needed to achieve the wins.. Its a working progress, he needs more time to get where he needs to be no matter how frustrating some results and team performances will be.

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3 minutes ago, Koke said:

 

5th is good in isolation but in the context of throwing away 15 points to United, not so good. I appreciate the team did so well to begin with but still....

 

If we finish 3rd then I will give the so much credit. I've said before if he gets us top 4 and wins us a cup then IMO he will go down as our second greatest manager ever after Ranieri.

In fairness I think at the same time Man U were in title winning form from Jan onwards when they got Fernandes in. So yes we could’ve done better but United also did very well for that period. So you’ve got to assess it based on the whole season and over the course of the season MU did slightly better than us hence why they finished above us. 

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1 minute ago, Koke said:

 

5th is good in isolation but in the context of throwing away 15 points to United, not so good. I appreciate the team did so well to begin with but still....

 

If we finish 3rd then I will give the so much credit. I've said before if he gets us top 4 and wins us a cup then IMO he will go down as our second greatest manager ever after Ranieri.

How about another 5th place finish and no cup? 

 

I think with the injuries and lack of squad depth, that is looking more likely, but if he and the squad manage to get through these next 3 games with 6 points, I will be a lot more confident we can still do it. 

 

I just don't think we can put too much on Rodgers if we fall short this season. With a fully fit starting 11, he had us playing some of the best football I have seen us play and we were dominating some top teams along the way. 

 

Freak amount of injuries and a lack of investment will be our downfall this season if we don't make that top 4 IMO. 

 

 

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The other issue is there are at least 6 clubs who think they should be in the top 4. Then add the likes of us, Everton, West Ham, Wolves etc that think their teams should be in the top 6 that’s 10 clubs for 6 positions. So in order to get top 4 we have to finish above at least 3 of the “sky 6” who all chuck many million pound notes at their squads. Even Arsenal who have been decidedly average the last couple of seasons, and the worst of those 6 sides in recent years still boast the likes of Aubamayang, Lacazette and Pepe all of whom were much more expensive than any player we’ve ever signed. 
 

So whilst we’ve come a long way you still have to perform consistently well over the course of a season to finish above any of those sides, and finishing above them should be seen as an achievement.

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Regarding last season what might be called a lack of bottle I’d prefer to call inexperience. If we tail off this season it will be for entirely different reasons. Injuries and fatigue are a major factor. Saw it reported today that we have more first team injuries than any other PL side. The lack of options then increases the pressure and mental and physical demands on those fit to play. Vicious circle, particularly when we don’t have the quality of depth of some of our competitors 

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6 minutes ago, Foxes96 said:

The other issue is there are at least 6 clubs who think they should be in the top 4. Then add the likes of us, Everton, West Ham, Wolves etc that think their teams should be in the top 6 that’s 10 clubs for 6 positions. So in order to get top 4 we have to finish above at least 3 of the “sky 6” who all chuck many million pound notes at their squads. Even Arsenal who have been decidedly average the last couple of seasons, and the worst of those 6 sides in recent years still boast the likes of Aubamayang, Lacazette and Pepe all of whom were much more expensive than any player we’ve ever signed. 
 

So whilst we’ve come a long way you still have to perform consistently well over the course of a season to finish above any of those sides, and finishing above them should be seen as an achievement.

We're just better than most of those sides though imo. Go through the starting 11 of most of their teams and pick the players you'd have over ours, think we have the majority of players in most combined 11's. Look I know thats simplistic and they have the funds to strengthen more than we do but that's why I find it disappointing that we've squandered the chance to finish top 4 when in a great position to do so (last season).

 

Feels like securing top 4 before the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs etc sort themselves out will give us a platform to really cement ourselves in the top 6 long term 

 

Then again maybe I'm guilty of overrating our players

Edited by foxfanazer
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Yeh fair comment, quite interesting to compare our side to other sides. But while I guess our first team is about as good as any side in the league other than Man City and Liverpool,  we still lack that strength in depth which is being exasperated by our injury list. 

My point was more from the perspective of other teams and other fan groups. Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea fans I’d imagine are all disappointed with how their sides are doing this season. 
 

I agree why we should try and make the most of it whilst teams are in transition, or whatever but I think form etc of these sides fluctuates quite a bit. We just need to consistently improve year on year and so far we seem to have done that this year, being in a similar position points wise but also whilst competing in Europe and with the backdrop of our injuries. If we can get a couple more players in next year, and keep our key players fit I see no reason why we can’t go and have another good year next year. 

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46 minutes ago, Koke said:

The reason I personally sometimes is critical of Rodgers is because of the squad he has. Others have pointed  out our previous league finishes but failed to mention previous managers had inferior squads. With the squad we hae and the elite level salary we're paying our manager, it is not unreasonable to expect a lot more than we usually do. 

 

Puel was working with Iborra, Silva, Gray, Slimani etc. Shakespeare was working with an aging Morgan, Simpson, Fuchs etc. 

 

*I accept our current injury crisis and I'm not blaming BR for that.

Well we don't normal finish 5th and qualify for Europe.

 

First semi-final in 20 years.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Koke said:

 

5th is good in isolation but in the context of throwing away 15 points to United, not so good. I appreciate the team did so well to begin with but still....

 

If we finish 3rd then I will give the so much credit. I've said before if he gets us top 4 and wins us a cup then IMO he will go down as our second greatest manager ever after Ranieri.

Agreed with all this until your final word :revenge: not a chance

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I'm really worried about this 'slump' becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. A lot of the talk in the media is of our injuries and subsequent slump in form at a similar stage last season resulting in missing out on the top four. Many of us fans are worried about the same thing and it's easy to see why after all the injuries.

 

I know a lot of this is down to Rodgers and the players, but I think the media (RL, the Merc, and Rob Tanner) and, yes, we the fans have roles to play in stopping this from happen.

 

The narrative must be about the tactical flexibility the manager and squad have shown all season long, coping with previous dips in form to come out fighting and end up joint second in the league just a single game ago.

 

We coped before when Maddison and Vardy were off colour and playing through injuries. We coped when we had to play Ndidi in defence.

 

We're not at full strength, nowhere near, and the players who are available will know that. But the coversation has to be about how adaptable, malleable, and resolute our squad is. They're fighters who experienced the disappointment of dropping out of the top four last season and, so far, have shown the determination to bounce back and be in the mix again. The talk has to be about achieving something special and actually being good enough to do it.

 

We're down to the bare bones, but they're good enough, Rodgers is good enough, and we must believe in them. Maybe then the top four can be the self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Length warning- -I'm trying to sum up just my dumb opinions of 5 seasons ,culminating in "respect for BR." I do get through the first 3 seasons at rocket pace (for me) .  

 

I can only give my opinion based on seeing 90 minutes of matches only since end of December when I realised fully for the first time that even seeing 45 minute highlights is insufficient data to attempt to give an accurate opinion and even then much information is still missing. Bearing that in mind my impressions of LCFC starting from 2015/6 are briefly :-

.

2015/6 . Almost literally miraculous, as was the earlier great escape. i had no idea of the reasons or personalities reponsible but gave Claudio and Vichai most of the credit along with the players. I now know of course  Nigel Pearson deserved a lot of the credit. Whether he could have achieved the same I doubt ,although I don't doubt he'd have done very well. Anyway it made my year.

 

2016/19    I think for most of this time I was happy with how LCFC were progressing although there was little obvious progress from the 2016 high, although we did very well in Europe in 2016-7 imo. Difficult to show progress after winning the PL  There were some brief periods when we seemed to be going backwards but its a very competitive field and I did n't expect miracles. Continuous upward progress has happened in English and Scottish football over several seasons but is rare and would usually indicate I suspect an inrush of large sums of money (Gretna), Chelsea)  or a "genius " in football management ( Clough/Taylor, JIm Mclean, Alex Ferguson at Aberdeen). Usually i think of these managers as Great managers. Then there are good managers , also  there are also rans. At an instant guess these 3 arbitary divisions divide into say 1%, 10%. 78% respectively of all football managers. The other 11% you can assume "died in action." in a manner of speaking.(retd, died ,sacked)

 

2019-20   BR arrived. I was delighted, thought we had done very well to get him and progress overall showed a pretty continuous upward trend with a falling away at the end of the season. Generally our results were worse than the effect on league position after N/Year. I had little idea of the facts and reasons for this and generally thought that achieving 5th in the league was a very good performance although mainly due to the period up to NY.  After Vichai died I was tremendously impressed with the dignity and resilience of the club, found out that Vichai was even more impressive as a man,  than I knew previously., and hoped that with Top taking over from his father we would continue to make progress under BR as manager. That has largely happened, and delighted me, not that I have any special importance , I'm just a very long term fan. (early 1963). 

 

2020-21 upward progess continued. I regarded BR as a very very good manager and hoped he might become our long overdue Great manager. I used the forum much more and learned a lot about LCFC (thank you).and the players. i was very impressed with the strengthening of our team and squad and for shorthand gave most of the credit to BR which I suppose is largely true. I mistakenly thought that our squad was sufficient to maybe win the PL again, a feat probably as difficult as 2016. Generally i thought most of the credit was due to Top, BR and the squad. I still do. Apologies for the length but I have covered briefly my impressions of 5 seasons.

 

To sum up I think LCFC was lucky to get such good owners, lucky to get our excellent squad so economically and lucky to get BR. Everyone got lucky. Our failure to maintain continuous improvement I put down almost entirely to covid and an unfortunate run of injuries. Despite these  throughout January I thought our squad was big enough and good enough to may be even win the PL and maybe another trophy. I was wrong. The injuries have meant this is probably no longer possible and imo a top 4 finish alone will be a major achievement for the club and BR, and would certainly re kindle my hopes he might eventually bacome our Great manager. Maybe even that's not necessary, its probably harder to become a Great manager these days. 

 

I think its great we have a long term target for the future, which i suspect is not true for most clubs, (except Man U., I understand they have a long term plan to become Masters of the Universe-only joking--obviously Olly would be gone by now if it were true) .

 

 The Slavia and Arsenal matches and tactics ,and resultant disappointment definitely meant I have lowered ,maybe unfairly, my initial and long held faith in BR a little,but only a little. On the whole Covid has meant I intend to suspend my opinion which is only of any value to me until say the 2021-22 season ,maybe longer. That does not mean i will suspend all interim criticisms of players or BR . They are almost all starting from a very high rating with yours truly. All constructive criticism and corrections welcome, not that anyone needs a bloody invitation. 

Edited by Alan Frost
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On 28/02/2021 at 18:20, Dames said:

I don’t think its a case of disliking him, not from my perspective but for a manager of his supposed calibre and what we are paying, we should be expecting more from him. 
 

Sometimes he delivers and gets lauded, other times he doesn't and gets criticised. 

 

We're currently third btw.

 

For the next few games our choices in the three attacking players behind Vardy will be out of Iheanacho, Ricardo, Albrighton and Under. I live in hope rather than expectation, I'm not sure what more BR can do with those choices and Barnes and Maddison out.

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4 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

 

Every rational fan would've taken that at the start of this season given how the second half of last season panned out - not even factoring in the extra European games or with knowledge of the injury crisis to come. While we dream of CL again, a fifth placed finish would not be a bottle job this season. The progress we're making is incredible. Although I appreciate the progress is not good enough for some. (Younger fans I'm guessing.)

But do we need CL to drive the revenue to keep some key players here, especially given the hit to the finances that the pandemic has delivered ?  Europa league is great (especially if we can go to games)  but if we can’t afford to keep the squad together and add some then our progress could drop off as others improve ....... I see this current period as a genuine opportunity to close the gap between top six and the next three/four.   Everton and West Ham will drive their revenue further via larger ground and investment, (Everton) and higher finishing position (West Ham). Leeds and villa also have potential via their sizeable fanbase.  If we can establish in the top four finishing position then the revenues available now from a savvy approach to social media etc could be ‘life changing’ for us as a club moving forwards. 

 

As a long suffering (up until a few years ago and the MON years) supporter, the thought that ending the season 4th I/o 5th could have such huge ramifications for the future is pretty mind blowing. 

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There’s always room for improvement. That’s why the best get better. Rodgers has done a great job so far for us.

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1 hour ago, Bert said:

There’s always room for improvement. That’s why the best get better. Rodgers has done a great job so far for us.

Which he has already done this year by improving he's record against the big 6. 

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7 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

 

@Foxes96 makes a very good point. Fernandes turned MUFC from average to sensational. They went on an incredible 15 match unbeaten run to the end of the season, winning 10 and drawing 5 (35pts from 45) while we struggled with injuries along with inexperience. One good result for us/one bad result for them and we would've made top 4. And if we had had made top 4, we might have struggled in the higher quality CL with all the injuries which may in turn have knocked confidence in the league etc. Everything happens for a reason. We didn't "bottle it" last season. We simply came up slightly short on the elevated target we had at Christmas. Don't forget, it was our fifth highest league finish EVER.

 

Every rational fan would've taken that at the start of this season given how the second half of last season panned out - not even factoring in the extra European games or with knowledge of the injury crisis to come. While we dream of CL again, a fifth placed finish would not be a bottle job this season. The progress we're making is incredible. Although I appreciate the progress is not good enough for some. (Younger fans I'm guessing.)

We can say that every time we miss out but surely our high ambition is to get Top 4 so why should we accept not getting it. I am not saying we are under performing, absolutely not. Saying that CL might be worse for us than EL is rubbish though. Players thrive to be on the big stage and unless we do it this season, I think some players will move on (and Rodgers eventually too).

 

Are we having a good season so far? Absolutely. As long as we avoid a complete collapse and finish 7th/8th, we can be happy. Before the season I was expecting 7th/8th at best so the team (including Rodgers) have done a great job (and that's without even considering the amount of injuries).

 

12 games to go, let's see what this already weird season has in store.

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On 01/03/2021 at 00:08, volpeazzurro said:

Think long term not short term fix for multi millions. Each signing has to be evaluated over a period of time, it isn't a computer game it's real money, every last penny of a 3 or 4 years protracted wage contract like Slimani and Silva has to be accounted for. Once bought your stuck with them. If they didn't buy em, they weren't suitable or weren't worth it. Our recruitment team might just be a little more astute than a few armchair YouTube watchers.

Bit random, but I’ve just found out that Chico’s (X Factor - Chico Time) real surname is Slimani. How did we a) never have a song for Slim based on Chico time? b) in light of this revelation might it be worth resigning him? 

Edited by Wasyls Pec Deck
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27 minutes ago, Wasyls Pec Deck said:

Bit random, but I’ve just found out that Chico’s (X Factor - Chico Time) real surname is Slimani. How did we a) never have a song for Slim based on Chico time? b) in light of this revelation might it be worth resigning him? 

It's got to be considered. Or, could it just be possible that we actually bought the wrong Slimani by mistake? It would explain a lot of things.

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On 01/03/2021 at 20:30, Koke said:

 

5th is good in isolation but in the context of throwing away 15 points to United, not so good. I appreciate the team did so well to begin with but still....

 

If we finish 3rd then I will give the so much credit. I've said before if he gets us top 4 and wins us a cup then IMO he will go down as our second greatest manager ever after Ranieri.

Ranieri and Rodgers are not even in the top 3.

 

Pearson, O Neil and Gillies are far superior to those 2.

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I’ve said it countless times before but I’ll say it again. Brendan Rodgers is a decent manager but he’s not a great one unless he wins us a trophy and/or gets us top 4.

Our squad is not punching, we are as good as anyone bar Man City and far better than a majority.

We are certainly not ‘punching’ like everyone seems to think. If we finish 5-7th then BR has failed and we have failed, it’s as simple as that.

 

I like Brendan and I’ve not once wanted him gone, but it would be a failure and there’s no getting away from that.

 

I saw something on YouTube discussing Brendan and they actually say it pretty much how I see it. He’s a good manager but he’s not a top manager and ultimately bottles it.
Blame injuries, Blame ‘were still developing’, blame Stevie g slipping but there’s a pattern he needs to prove before he can be talked as a better than decent manager and that’s to see a job through until the final day.

 

 

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