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twister

Premier League B Teams in the EFL?

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17 hours ago, NaijaFox said:

You mean it’s not the “real world” to make a good weekly wage and still likely end up in the EFL if you don’t make it in the PL?

 

There are no guarantees in football. Vardy failed in the “real world that is the EFL” as undoubtedly has so many other young prospects. The better training (again, inclusive of nutrition, fitness, etc.) and experience a young prospect receives, the greater his career prospects should ordinarily be. I realize that many FTers are of a certain age demographic, but please let’s not unduly romanticize EFL football. Playing before a sparse crowd in driving rain on a muddy field in some dodgy ground in the lower tiers does little or nothing to enhance a young player’s career prospects or longevity,

 

You've gone some way to contradicting yourself bringing up Vards, although reading between the lines it sounds like your point is that he is an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.

 

To some extent I agree, but playing mens football (read sport) is not the same as playing developmental football. I don't think playing FL categorically improves a players career prospects or longevity, but to say it does little to nothing is wrong in my opinion. Throwing a 16 year old in to a mans game will be a far more educational experience than training with the under 23s. Not every player will benefit from it of course, but plenty will.  

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19 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Safe to say I'd be done with Leicester if we ever backed the implementation of this idea.

I'd like to think I'd be the same but my love of Leicester might be too much.

 

Anyone who does back such an idea can do one. The biggest reason English football is revered worldwide is because it has 4 professional leagues which all make the PL stronger. Slap on the community factor on having local professional clubs and there's no rounded argument against it.

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The guy putting this forward isn’t English and clearly doesn’t understand our way. The football pyramid is what keeps English football exciting. It blows my mind that people can be so detached from what these clubs mean to a community.

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6 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

The guy putting this forward isn’t English and clearly doesn’t understand our way. 

This line of argument is highly flawed. We have foreign owners, and there are plenty of people in positions of power that are English who could not care less about 'our way', specifically and generally.

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6 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

This line of argument is highly flawed. We have foreign owners, and there are plenty of people in positions of power that are English who could not care less about 'our way', specifically and generally.

I think this guy is Spanish (not certain) but they are used to this system so you can understand why he thinks it’s the best way. But that’s not how we operate and we never should. 

 

Surely we will learn from the fact that interest in the efl trophy drastically reduced (if possible) with the inclusion of under 23 sides. That competition will be completely done for if a under 23 side gets to the final 

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8 hours ago, twister said:

you dont need to Romanticism its their in front of your eyes it does a lot actual if you know your football

 

Maguire started at league one sheffield united

Calvert Lewin lower league academy

Maddison-coventry

Watkins-exeter city-hattrick last weekend

Mings-Chippenham town

Cash-wycombe wanders academy to forest

Bowen Hereford United

Antonio-non leagues

-Vardy-non league

-cresswell-ipswich town

You want me to respond with an even longer list of players who went from club youth teams to the PL (presumably "you know your football")? 

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10 hours ago, ajthefox said:

You've gone some way to contradicting yourself bringing up Vards, although reading between the lines it sounds like your point is that he is an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.

 

To some extent I agree, but playing mens football (read sport) is not the same as playing developmental football. I don't think playing FL categorically improves a players career prospects or longevity, but to say it does little to nothing is wrong in my opinion. Throwing a 16 year old in to a mans game will be a far more educational experience than training with the under 23s. Not every player will benefit from it of course, but plenty will.  

Totally agree, but as you well acknowledge it is not the only means of development nor frankly the best for everyone. There are many paths to paradise, and throwing kids into the deep end of senior men's football does not work out for all (arguably not even for most kids). In fact, setbacks at that stage of a kid's life and so early in their career might very well serve to break the will of some kids.

 

There are different sorts of football "education" and thus while one supposes there's something to be said about the education of involvement in a relegation scrape or playing in bare bones circumstances in a club a few hundred grand away from going into administration (which obviously is not a universal experience but the reality of a lot of kids in the lower tiers), it cannot compensate for the sort of sports science available at the upper rungs, as well as the education of competing with talent from across the nation, continent and perhaps the globe.

 

 

Edited by NaijaFox
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4 hours ago, NaijaFox said:

You want me to respond with an even longer list of players who went from club youth teams to the PL (presumably "you know your football")? 

We can go all day on this if you want, football nerd is me.

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13 minutes ago, twister said:

We can go all day on this if you want, football nerd is me.

But that's THE point, isn't it?

There are several effective ways to develop players.

 

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On 07/10/2020 at 18:36, ttfn said:

I can’t believe he’s got the brass neck to complain about young English players not being developed.

 

Its clubs like Manchester City (and we are guilty of this too) hoovering up good young talent with no realistic intention of ever picking them for the first XI.

 

In our case this is something we did with George (?) Thomas who’s now at QPR and the lad we signed from Bury last year. These are relatively established players we’ve signed essentially to play for our under 23s. In a properly functioning system they should be developing further in the clubs that they’ve been nurtured at rather than rotting in uncompetitive under 23s football.

 

The solution is not to put the B teams in competitive football, it’s to ensure that EFL community clubs aren’t raided by Premier League clubs for players whose needs are best met by playing proper football rather than having a 1 in 10 chance of making the first team at a Premier League side.


Unfortunately with EPPP and various other measures the FA has introduced apparently to help player development that horse has well and truly bolted.

This was the ruling I found absolutely scandalous, arguably even worse than FFP. If my understanding was right then it meant that lower league clubs' youngsters could be poached for a set fee, generally far less than what they would've got without this ruling. I feel that this has been largely ignored. It's surely the single biggest potential income for a small club and yet they voted it in? Absolutely corrupt to the core.

 

Nick Powell went to Man Utd for £4mil or something just before this rule came in. Apparently if the rule had been in place Crewe would've taken about £500k. It's a disgrace, it went well under the radar around the time FFP came in.

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43 minutes ago, 420Hashish said:

What if established Pl clubs adopt a lower league club instead? 

Another shite idea, imagine in 2008 Bolton had adopted us? What state would we both be in now? 
Whilst we were playing League one football Bolton, Wigan, Portsmouth, Stoke, Hull,Blackburn were all in the PL. Our game and the fortunes of clubs changes so quickly for the better and worse to make this impossible to ever work.

 Adopting a club would work exactly the same as B teams, could you imagine Simon Grayson being told by Pep he has to play a certain Player every week and in what position and what minute he needs to come off in - this is what would happen.

We would have been forced to play Ryan McGiven every week! Because the money men say so

 

B teams, club adoption it’s all terrible, we could always just filter the money back down through the pyramid, crazy but it might just work.

 

The only funny think with a B team would be when a club like Man City has its B team playing every week Saturday 3pm

in stadium where you can stand and being more affordable they would have more supporters at the B game than the first team.

It could actually show owners and media what is important to the average football fan and completely ruin Man City inthe processz

Edited by Aus Fox
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22 hours ago, davieG said:

Hmm I'm not advocating their inclusion in fact the complete opposite. 

 

The Media will focus on where the fan numbers are the biggest irrespective how well the teams are doing. Do the media stop their none stop over the top saturation coverage of these 'big 6' teams even when they are shite? No! So I'd bet they'd be all over the B teams as well if they were included in the EFL structure it's what they do. Look at the media coverage of the Women's teams?

I dont think so shown zero interested  in the under 21 tteams or premier league 2

 

they only want the top product. which your right tends to be united and liverpool in the prem, theyd have little intetrest in watching their b teams play walsall.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, twister said:

I dont think so shown zero interested  in the under 21 tteams or premier league 2

 

they only want the top product. which your right tends to be united and liverpool in the prem, theyd have little intetrest in watching their b teams play walsall.

 

 

Sky have put a lot more effort into the EFL so I'd imagine if the Man City B were playing Forest or Derby etc they'd be all over it to the exclusion of Barnsley v Wycombe. Same as for the Women's teams they're mostly just interested in the the 'elite' teams Women's matches.

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From a practical point of view, as has already been mentioned, B teams don't work. The best young players go straight into the first team for lower profile fixtures, such as Carabao Cup games against lower league opposition, or out on loan to the very lower league clubs this scheme would endanger. 

 

If we look at our own examples in the current squad, Choudhury and Barnes improved immeasurably as a result of loan spells to clubs who could offer them regular starts in the Football League.

 

Would Barnes have made his debut for England last night if his experience up until last season had been limited to B team football rather than a promotion chase at West Brom? It seems unlikely. Choudhury toughened up immensely after his loan spell. 

 

The reality is that nobody gives a shit about reserve football- they never have. Ironically, we're just about the only club to have made a real effort with it in terms  of crowds- but that was FNF over 20 years ago.

 

On a more ethical point of view, these are football clubs at the heart of their communities. We cannot have a situation where, on the one hand, football people were devastated at the collapse of Bury and all their history and resonance with the community while promoting B team football on the other.

 

You've only to see the pathetic crowds at Checkatrade Trophy games to see that fans aren't interested in PL B teams. We'll be fine if nobody turns up to Holmes Park to see Leicester City B vs Lincoln City, but Lincoln won't be if nobody does for the return fixture at Sincil Bank. 

 

Football is a sport for the fans, and not just the fans of the so-called Big Clubs. It might be a cliche, but every club is a big club to its own fans and communities. Try telling a fan or someone whose livelihood depends on Doncaster Rovers' continued existence that their club matters less than Manchester City's attempts to save a few million on young players. Ridiculous. 

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What an awful idea. As others have said, a Reserve Team league (which includes senior players) would be much better for development. What football really needs is a way to transfer some of that gobshit load of money at the top of the pyramid down below. That would probably have to involve legislation though (perhaps allowing the Football League to own a portion of the Premier League? Don't know, not a lawyer, nor an accountant.)

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It's insulting to clubs that they are viewed at the same level as youth teams, too. One of the great things about the pyramid is that each club is stand alone with it's own identity, heritage, fanbase.

 

Man City B v x club from League Two in front of a few hundred in a league match is so devaluing.

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