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3 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

That sort of indignation is understandable, but its madness to deny the reality of the situation. The Premier League makes loads of money precisely because those teams are in, not in spite of them. I am not suggesting we become subservient or sycophantic to them, but to fail to recognise this reality does not suggest a workable solution will be found.

But but but ....................you seem to accept that there is a problem that needs fixing.

 

That is entirely different to a power grab

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2 minutes ago, Frank Large's Black Book said:

But but but ....................you seem to accept that there is a problem that needs fixing.

 

That is entirely different to a power grab

Ok, you got me, I said solution where I should have said outcome.  :blush:

 

I don't care about the voting question, because its not actually a thing. You sign up for a competition then you are expected to adhere to its rules, not whinge and moan they are unjust.

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17 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Ok, you got me, I said solution where I should have said outcome.  :blush:

 

I don't care about the voting question, because its not actually a thing. You sign up for a competition then you are expected to adhere to its rules, not whinge and moan they are unjust.

Well I reckon that changing the voting principle is a fairly important thing.

 

And I'm not whinging about unjust rules, I don't like rules that are changed after the competition has started

Edited by Frank Large's Black Book
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27 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

That sort of indignation is understandable, but its madness to deny the reality of the situation. The Premier League makes loads of money precisely because those teams are in, not in spite of them. I am not suggesting we become subservient or sycophantic to them, but to fail to recognise this reality does not suggest a workable solution will be found.

Clearly the only result is they get stronger and us hanging on to status every year if that’s the future I’m sorry it’s not for me Footballs finished if that’s the case 

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It’s noteworthy that ManC, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea are yet to publicly comment on these

proposals, maybe they want to see how this is received before putting their name to it.
WHam have apparently spoken out against the proposals it would nice to see some more clubs

do the same.

On a side note surely Rick Parry’s position must be called into question.

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2 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

It’s noteworthy that ManC, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea are yet to publicly comment on these

proposals, maybe they want to see how this is received before putting their name to it.
WHam have apparently spoken out against the proposals it would nice to see some more clubs

do the same.

On a side note surely Rick Parry’s position must be called into question.

 

I suspect that no-one much will make a statement as they've not seen any 'official' proposal. West Ham's comment was an anonymous 'insider'.

 

More details from the Telegraph's  18th draft

 

The Premier League will tell its members that by season 2025-2026, when the full transition has been completed, under PBP proposals the bottom club would earn between £40 million and £50 million and the top club around £160 million. That would make the ratio between top earners and the lowest 1:4. All newly promoted clubs would be obliged to hold back £25 million per season for their first two years in the league,

 

If true:

Does that 40-50M equate exactly to Norwch's 100M last year? Presumably it can't correspond directly.

Also promoted sides are restricted in what they can spend which will surely make them more likely go back down!

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2 minutes ago, Frank Large's Black Book said:

What, this Rick Parry? Surely not:o

 

Rick Parry is the current chairman of the EFL, the former chief executive of Liverpool, the original CEO of the Premier League and a board member at New York Cosmos

 

Yes that one, and erstwhile member of the UEFA financial investigatory committee (i.e. the lower one) while investigating charges against Manchester City. Difficult to see why the club thought providing detailed information to him was a good idea.

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1 hour ago, mazarron fox said:

Then let’s have a premier league where the so called big six dominate always, what cracking fun. No thanks I’m out 

I'm not saying these proposed changes should pass, they are abhorrent and a disgrace and hopefully they never see the light of day

 

However, if you think these teams could leave the league and you could still operate on the same level, attracting and retaining the same level of player then you are living in a fantasy land.

 

Any league in Europe no matter how big or small would become significantly less commercially valuable should the strongest teams in it up sticks and play somewhere else.

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30 minutes ago, mazarron fox said:

Clearly the only result is they get stronger and us hanging on to status every year if that’s the future I’m sorry it’s not for me Footballs finished if that’s the case 

 I also think a bit of perspective is needed here, Leicester are riding on the crest of a wave going through one of the best periods in their history so despite all this noise t's a great time to be a Leicester fan. Support your team through thick and thin regardless of what happens externally. 

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There’s only 1 winner in football and I’m afraid it’s not done on the pitch anymore…if this goes through that’s me done with the game. And I thought I couldn't hate Liverpool and United any more. 

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2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

We don’t want too many Leicester Citys.”

These were the words spoken by a senior figure from the Premier League’s ‘big six’ clubs, in the kind of high-end London hotel you can easily imagine.

“Football history suggests fans like big teams winning,” the official continued, to the group of business people and media figures present. “A certain amount of unpredictability is good, but a more democratic league would be bad for business.”

Exactly whose business would it be bad for? And why is football even viewed that way? The answers are among the biggest problems for the game right now.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/champions-league-superclubs-liverpool-man-utd-barcelona-real-madrid-a9330431.html

 

 

Good read that , i was struck buy the last part..

 

“I look at the big clubs and their endless desire for money and I just think… what’s the point?” Goldblatt laments. “It’s not like you’re making much of a profit here. So what are you doing it for? What is the point of this death spiral of an ever-smaller number of clubs fighting it out?

“I really do think that these people running the clubs are locked into a way of thinking that is sort of self-destructive and they justify themselves by saying we must have more money so we can have better teams so we can have better product… but for what?

“In every other economic sector, people try and take their competitors over, but obviously that doesn’t happen in football.

“People think the unit of analysis is the club, but actually the game as a whole should be the unit of economic analysis. It’s the mad dynamic of capital accumulation, and it’s ultimately very odd that a very small number of people should be driving what is a collective experience for millions of people.”

One exasperated source goes even further.

“We cannot allow the football eco-system to be destroyed in the interests of a small group of clubs. It is much more than money at stake here. We should all recall the social value of football, the role it plays in communities.

“We have a super-rich, but we are destroying the base. The top clubs are not really understanding what is at stake.”

It all means that, right now, it feels like there’s less at stake in many games. They’re decided far too early. Their outcomes are far too predictable.

The wonder is what can be done about it?"

 

 

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On 11/10/2020 at 12:35, Abrasive fox said:

Southampton. Its just a carrot to try and get more support. I imagine they'll extend it to palace and us if we support too.

 

This stinks and is just blind opportunism.

I hope we wont support it like we didnt with PPV. It could come back to bite us on the arse if we vote against it and it gets voted through  but someone has to stand up for the good of football. No interest in fans at all and just want to stop anyone outside the "big 6" from competing at the top. If this gets voted through I'll be done with football which will be a very sad day. 

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41 minutes ago, AndyK said:

 

I suspect that no-one much will make a statement as they've not seen any 'official' proposal. West Ham's comment was an anonymous 'insider'.

 

More details from the Telegraph's  18th draft

 

The Premier League will tell its members that by season 2025-2026, when the full transition has been completed, under PBP proposals the bottom club would earn between £40 million and £50 million and the top club around £160 million. That would make the ratio between top earners and the lowest 1:4. All newly promoted clubs would be obliged to hold back £25 million per season for their first two years in the league,

 

If true:

Does that 40-50M equate exactly to Norwch's 100M last year? Presumably it can't correspond directly.

Also promoted sides are restricted in what they can spend which will surely make them more likely go back down!

cant see many premier league clubs being able to hold out for big fees from the big six clubs once this comes into play - would be like the old days -  we want your player - here's what we are prepared to pay - thank you very much …..

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2 hours ago, davieG said:

However once they have their 6 votes what's to stop them reducing this and changing other stuff.

The terms would not be able to be changed within an initial period (say 10 years and even then not without an independent panel judging it fair or alternatively with full premier league support to make a change) 

 

they wouldn’t have any chance at all of getting it though if were amendable 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Spiritwalker said:

It’s noteworthy that ManC, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea are yet to publicly comment on these

proposals, maybe they want to see how this is received before putting their name to it.
WHam have apparently spoken out against the proposals it would nice to see some more clubs

do the same.

On a side note surely Rick Parry’s position must be called into question.

Apparently the fine print of the finances include Spurs being given a £108m rebate from the league to pay for their new stadium, so pretty obvious what they would go for. 

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54 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

 I also think a bit of perspective is needed here, Leicester are riding on the crest of a wave going through one of the best periods in their history so despite all this noise t's a great time to be a Leicester fan. Support your team through thick and thin regardless of what happens externally. 

Its true that this is the best time ever to be a Leicester fan, but if they slip down and out of the prem, I won't be supporting them anymore 

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They might as well name it

’Project Ruin Football forever’.
Absolutely disgusting proposal with, aside from helping the lower leagues financially, had absolutely nothing good about it.

Trying to manipulate a global pandemic by praying on the weak, offering a money carrot to desperate leagues and clubs in return for total dominance and lining there pockets hugely long term is disgusting and I hope they all rot.

Any one in power of football should kick them in to touch because the game is being ruined slowly over the years but this would be the finish should the proposals go through,

 

I could talk for hours about how the competitiveness would be ruined, the unpredictably will be ruined, 18 team leagues is terrible, No league cup is terrible etc etc. But there’s no point because everyone knows it, even the powers of the top 6 know it’s not good for football but they don’t care because it’s good for money and that’s all. They have no love of football but love for money, and there ****ing patronise us by thinking they give 2 sh*ts about football.

 

Anything is better than those plans, even a super league.

I hear people saying ‘super league would kill the rest of the teams because they draw the money’. I disagree completely. If the big 6 F off to a super league, all the people who don’t like real football can watch that dross, but every true football fan who likes competitive football would watch the new leagues and it would build into a great project without those fraud clubs.

Leeds, Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Leicester, West Ham etc. All these would exist and loads of fans would watch this rather than the super league crap and after few years of building the brand it would become big.

The reason the Premier league became so big and money started being pumped in, was because of the love for ‘real’ football and the product in the 80s-90s became brilliant. Teams like Chelsea city spurs etc were not big clubs or flush with money , they were just normal clubs.
Without the big 6, the league could start again and it would eventually build into a popular product when people realise a big 6 super league with the other few super powers from other leagues would become tedious and boring, year in year out same games same stadiums. It’ll become so boring and I can imagine it’ll lose lots of fans from up and down the country from the other 86 league clubs.

 

They could become 2 separate products and be fine. It would be a better option than this ‘Project sh*t picture’.

Football will be dead 100% if this goes through. Just leave the ****ing game alone for god sakes 😡 

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It won’t happen, but the FA and Prem League need to grow some balls and put these money grabbers in their fcuking place.

If they want a Euro Super League then fcuk them off and don’t allow them into any English competitions or back when they finish near the bottom each year.

The scum of English Football, if this fails the rest of the clubs should let them know on match days greedy bastards.

 

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42 minutes ago, jamfox said:

Good read that , i was struck buy the last part..

 

“I look at the big clubs and their endless desire for money and I just think… what’s the point?” Goldblatt laments. “It’s not like you’re making much of a profit here. So what are you doing it for? What is the point of this death spiral of an ever-smaller number of clubs fighting it out?

“I really do think that these people running the clubs are locked into a way of thinking that is sort of self-destructive and they justify themselves by saying we must have more money so we can have better teams so we can have better product… but for what?

“In every other economic sector, people try and take their competitors over, but obviously that doesn’t happen in football.

“People think the unit of analysis is the club, but actually the game as a whole should be the unit of economic analysis. It’s the mad dynamic of capital accumulation, and it’s ultimately very odd that a very small number of people should be driving what is a collective experience for millions of people.”

One exasperated source goes even further.

“We cannot allow the football eco-system to be destroyed in the interests of a small group of clubs. It is much more than money at stake here. We should all recall the social value of football, the role it plays in communities.

“We have a super-rich, but we are destroying the base. The top clubs are not really understanding what is at stake.”

It all means that, right now, it feels like there’s less at stake in many games. They’re decided far too early. Their outcomes are far too predictable.

The wonder is what can be done about it?"

 

 

I find it depressing that just 4 years after what is generally considered the greatest underdog story in football history with our title win, that instead of embracing it, the top clubs instead want to make sure it can never happen again!

 

Our win gave hope to fans across the world that one day it could be their club that has their day in the sun. It was huge for football. These businessmen who are only in it for money are a blight on the game!

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1 hour ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

I'm not saying these proposed changes should pass, they are abhorrent and a disgrace and hopefully they never see the light of day

 

However, if you think these teams could leave the league and you could still operate on the same level, attracting and retaining the same level of player then you are living in a fantasy land.

 

Any league in Europe no matter how big or small would become significantly less commercially valuable should the strongest teams in it up sticks and play somewhere else.

Muzzy if you read what I put earlier most of the players currently in the premier league outside the top six would not get into that elite group in our team for example maybe 2 or 3 at best in teams lower down hardly any. Most of the best players are already at these 6 clubs so the overall standard of the rest wouldn’t drop.

yes commercially not so viable but given a choice of paying for a top European league or a domestic competitive top flight for less who knows what fans outside the big 6 may chose? 

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49 minutes ago, jamfox said:

Good read that , i was struck buy the last part..

 

“I look at the big clubs and their endless desire for money and I just think… what’s the point?” Goldblatt laments. “It’s not like you’re making much of a profit here. So what are you doing it for? What is the point of this death spiral of an ever-smaller number of clubs fighting it out?

“I really do think that these people running the clubs are locked into a way of thinking that is sort of self-destructive and they justify themselves by saying we must have more money so we can have better teams so we can have better product… but for what?

“In every other economic sector, people try and take their competitors over, but obviously that doesn’t happen in football.

“People think the unit of analysis is the club, but actually the game as a whole should be the unit of economic analysis. It’s the mad dynamic of capital accumulation, and it’s ultimately very odd that a very small number of people should be driving what is a collective experience for millions of people.”

One exasperated source goes even further.

“We cannot allow the football eco-system to be destroyed in the interests of a small group of clubs. It is much more than money at stake here. We should all recall the social value of football, the role it plays in communities.

“We have a super-rich, but we are destroying the base. The top clubs are not really understanding what is at stake.”

It all means that, right now, it feels like there’s less at stake in many games. They’re decided far too early. Their outcomes are far too predictable.

The wonder is what can be done about it?"

 

 

Best thing I’ve read about it.

 

In business, firms get bigger and bigger and people, generally, benefit through more jobs, and advanced industry.

 

But in football, a few clubs get bigger, sell more shirts abroad, but at the expense of the other clubs, and the fabric of football.

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