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Everton Post Match

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15 hours ago, Vacamion said:

 

Back to earth and no table topping for us. :(

 

Everton did a number on us. Well done them.

 

We weren't abject.  Just not our night.

 

I have consulted Vicente Iborra who has confirmed what we need, offensively and defensively:

 

 

Screenshot_20201216-193913_DuckDuckGo.jpg

Let Under WHAM! the corners in imo

 

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1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

Indeed we are. When you consider the injuries and the schedule you could argue that Brendan is working miracles. We should be pleased about our position and what we are achieving. 
 

however, the abject performances against the likes of Fulham, West Ham, Villa, Everton are still not acceptable. The chaos at set pieces is not acceptable. The lack of fight and the mental frailty is not acceptable. 
 

As fans we should celebrate the good, but we should also be allowed to point out and pick apart the bad. This season there is an opportunity to do something incredible again - qualify for the Chanpions League. We blew it last season. I don’t want to see us blow it again. 

I think abject is harsh, Fulham we made 2 mistakes at the back and got punished. We were the superior side in most departments but we missed our chances, they took theirs. Same with Everton yesterday. They are a decent side, 2 slight mistakes from Justin and Kasper and we conceded a soft goal, but I never felt like we were under real pressure. Vardy missed a sitter and had one ruled out for offside, Perez could have had a penalty, we created some decent chances, but not enough. It wasn't an abject performance we lost on the fine margins and we just need to take it on the chin and move on, not rip the team to shreds and demand changes. Particularly in defeat to Everton who are a decent side who have played fewer games than us this season and not had lengthy European trips to contend with.

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7 minutes ago, Tom12345 said:

Enough has been said about the players, tactics and team selection. All I want to add is that, above all, what I find sadly missing in our team under Rodgers is the Fearless spirit that served us so well during the title winning season (and indeed in the two or so seasons since then even though we were not winning as much). The old guard led by the likes of Vardy, Albrighton, Mahrez, Simpson, Morgan, Fuchs and Kasper (and Evans as a joiner later) always seem to have this desire to win (shown by their body language), even though their output or skills may not get them over the line all the time. It was a different mentality but they chase endless causes (Vardy still does and Kasper still has that look of concern on his face when we are losing), they believed they belong and can win, and they push forward even if they could be hopeless long balls. We now have more skillful players and we can play  more beautiful football arguably, but it seems we have lost that grit and belief. We rather play safe and pass around at the back then to have a go but risk losing or losing the ball. Funnily enough, I think belief is above all the most important. We now have the skill but we don’t have as much that spirit. We are becoming a bit like Spurs in the last few seasons when they constantly play beautiful football but they never could put together a decent run to win the title (and they would like us lose games when they were expected to win). Admittedly though, we do not constantly play beautiful football - only some time - as we regularly put up subpar performances like against Everton and Fulham. Belief and team spirit is something fully under the responsibility of the manager - and to me this is what sets apart the best manager in the world from good but not great ones. I don’t know, but Rodgers’ interviews never gave me the impression that he has got this right yet. It also seem apparent on the pitch when we fans regularly moan about players strolling to the corner flag, passing sideways or backwards when we are chasing games in the last 10-15 mins, when we decide to pass backwards to our own half for freekicks when our CBs are up near the box ready for a header but the ball never came, etc.

 

I commented in the post match thread after our 3-0 win against Brighton that I didn’t like how we played the last 15 mins when we lacked drive. I said Klopp and Guardiola never allowed that to happen for Liverpool and Man City because they always say it is very important that the players always play with the same mentality. I said that I didn’t like it because that attitude would rub off on the team in the long run and when we need it to chase games. I was laughed at but this game showed exactly what I meant. 

 

I used to love watching the likes of Vardy  pushing and pushing and Kasper shouting from the back urging players to go forward. We tried to have a go. Now we don’t. This, Rodgers, really needs to be reflected on and changed.

 

Fearless Foxes.

Fearless Foxes never give up is a great Motto, some of what you say above is true!

 

But as with everything there is a fineline to be struck, BR has a very difficult job, I for one do not agree with everything he does and sometimes I wish he would give the players a rocket (especially in the Fulham game), but his respect from the players is clear too see and that takes time to build.

 

I think we are at the stage now where some of the players know they haven't shown that fearless attitude and therefore not given 100% for the manager, the Everton game wasn't down to BR but some absent individual performances imo, I would love too see a bit more of the fearless foxes attitude Sunday and I'm predicting we will! BR is a good manager who is doing a good job with what he has got and I for one am pleased where we are, but acknowledge there is more determination needed from some individuals on the pitch.

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9 minutes ago, Vazman said:

Fearless Foxes never give up is a great Motto, some of what you say above is true!

 

But as with everything there is a fineline to be struck, BR has a very difficult job, I for one do not agree with everything he does and sometimes I wish he would give the players a rocket (especially in the Fulham game), but his respect from the players is clear too see and that takes time to build.

 

I think we are at the stage now where some of the players know they haven't shown that fearless attitude and therefore not given 100% for the manager, the Everton game wasn't down to BR but some absent individual performances imo, I would love too see a bit more of the fearless foxes attitude Sunday and I'm predicting we will! BR is a good manager who is doing a good job with what he has got and I for one am pleased where we are, but acknowledge there is more determination needed from some individuals on the pitch.

Hope you are right about this Sunday!

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3 hours ago, ealingfox said:

I am genuinely looking forward to the table levelling out and us reverting to the mean so I don't have to read BuT wErE 4Th iN tHe LeAgUe every few posts.

 

It doesn't ****ing matter! It has no relevance.

Yeah buzzing for the team i love losing some games and sliding down the table so I can be proved right to some strangers on an Internet forum! 

 

Some people... Jeez

Edited by The whole world smiles
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14 minutes ago, Tom12345 said:

Enough has been said about the players, tactics and team selection. All I want to add is that, above all, what I find sadly missing in our team under Rodgers is the Fearless spirit that served us so well during the title winning season (and indeed in the two or so seasons since then even though we were not winning as much). The old guard led by the likes of Vardy, Albrighton, Mahrez, Simpson, Morgan, Fuchs and Kasper (and Evans as a joiner later) always seem to have this desire to win (shown by their body language), even though their output or skills may not get them over the line all the time. It was a different mentality but they chase endless causes (Vardy still does and Kasper still has that look of concern on his face when we are losing), they believed they belong and can win, and they push forward even if they could be hopeless long balls. We now have more skillful players and we can play  more beautiful football arguably, but it seems we have lost that grit and belief. We rather play safe and pass around at the back then to have a go but risk losing or losing the ball. Funnily enough, I think belief is above all the most important. We now have the skill but we don’t have as much that spirit. We are becoming a bit like Spurs in the last few seasons when they constantly play beautiful football but they never could put together a decent run to win the title (and they would like us lose games when they were expected to win). Admittedly though, we do not constantly play beautiful football - only some time - as we regularly put up subpar performances like against Everton and Fulham. Belief and team spirit is something fully under the responsibility of the manager - and to me this is what sets apart the best manager in the world from good but not great ones. I don’t know, but Rodgers’ interviews never gave me the impression that he has got this right yet. It also seem apparent on the pitch when we fans regularly moan about players strolling to the corner flag, passing sideways or backwards when we are chasing games in the last 10-15 mins, when we decide to pass backwards to our own half for freekicks when our CBs are up near the box ready for a header but the ball never came, etc.

 

I commented in the post match thread after our 3-0 win against Brighton that I didn’t like how we played the last 15 mins when we lacked drive. I said Klopp and Guardiola never allowed that to happen for Liverpool and Man City because they always say it is very important that the players always play with the same mentality. I said that I didn’t like it because that attitude would rub off on the team in the long run and when we need it to chase games. I was laughed at but this game showed exactly what I meant:.

 

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/124303-brighton-3-0-post-match-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5753885

 

I used to love watching the likes of Vardy  pushing and pushing and Kasper shouting from the back urging players to go forward. We tried to have a go. We still try, but not with the same belief and consistency. This, Rodgers, really needs to be reflected on and changed.

 

Fearless Foxes.

...I fully understand the policy of continuing to play to the last minute and not adopting a, game is over attitude!!!

In this instance regarding the Brighton game, we had the game effectively sewn up by half time and I was looking at a controlled 15 minutes in the second half not to concede and then exert pressure to build on the goals tally.

  Back in the Leicester Tigers heyday when they were a major force you would see them give up tries at the end of games and I always wondered why not fight just as hard to prevent this as you would at the start of games. As soon as you start to adopt a," it makes no difference" attitude it can easily stay with you.

  Conversely when Tigers ran up a score against opposition it was deemed by some to be not part of the game and was a slight on the team we had just beaten. Being ruthless is a mindset carried by big and successful teams and we need to be aiming to emulate that mindset in our games.

  The Southampton 9 - 0 was a result from out of the blue, but when the players had got into the position, they knew there was a target to shoot at which was to score 9 or more to go into the history books. They did that by relentlessly going forward each knowing that they could contribute and more importantly keeping the play simple as Southampton were already demoralised.

  The next thing was to build on this and carry the same mindset into games and this is why I do not believe we have the right temperament to be ruthlessly consistent. Next game against Burton we overplayed, hollywood balls, back heels and flicks, the simplicity was gone along with the discipline required. Next game Arsenal if I remember, once again, overplayed,flicks, hollywood passes, passes tried that they perhaps only do in training, a weak Arsenal team we should have smashed let off by our indiscipline and arrogance in our ability.

  You have to bring the same mindset every game, treat them all the same, and there are no times in the game, where you should sitting back, to admire your work.

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26 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

Yeah buzzing for the team i love losing some games and sliding down the table so I can be proved right to some strangers on an Internet forum! 

 

Some people... Jeez

 

Act in bad faith all you want. I hope we win every game as much as anyone. I'm bored of seeing every unfavourable observation shut down with the same irrelevant point.

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1 hour ago, Farrington fox said:

Last night there was just no urgency to move forward and attack. Not much running off the ball and creating space. But Everton did make it difficult with 8 or 9 players behind the ball most of the time.

Agree with the first part of your statement, as for the second part, the only reason they had 8 or 9 players behind the ball is because we are to fcuking slow at getting the ball forward, can Rodgers not see this.

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2 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

Enough has been said about the players, tactics and team selection. All I want to add is that, above all, what I find sadly missing in our team under Rodgers is the Fearless spirit that served us so well during the title winning season (and indeed in the two or so seasons since then even though we were not winning as much). The old guard led by the likes of Vardy, Albrighton, Mahrez, Simpson, Morgan, Fuchs and Kasper (and Evans as a joiner later) always seem to have this desire to win (shown by their body language), even though their output or skills may not get them over the line all the time. It was a different mentality but they chase endless causes (Vardy still does and Kasper still has that look of concern on his face when we are losing), they believed they belong and can win, and they push forward even if they could be hopeless long balls. We now have more skillful players and we can play  more beautiful football arguably, but it seems we have lost that grit and belief. We rather play safe and pass around at the back then to have a go but risk losing or losing the ball. Funnily enough, I think belief is above all the most important. We now have the skill but we don’t have as much that spirit. We are becoming a bit like Spurs in the last few seasons when they constantly play beautiful football but they never could put together a decent run to win the title (and they would like us lose games when they were expected to win). Admittedly though, we do not constantly play beautiful football - only some time - as we regularly put up subpar performances like against Everton and Fulham. Belief and team spirit is something fully under the responsibility of the manager - and to me this is what sets apart the best manager in the world from good but not great ones. I don’t know, but Rodgers’ interviews never gave me the impression that he has got this right yet. It also seem apparent on the pitch when we fans regularly moan about players strolling to the corner flag, passing sideways or backwards when we are chasing games in the last 10-15 mins, when we decide to pass backwards to our own half for freekicks when our CBs are up near the box ready for a header but the ball never came, etc.

 

I commented in the post match thread after our 3-0 win against Brighton that I didn’t like how we played the last 15 mins when we lacked drive. I said Klopp and Guardiola never allowed that to happen for Liverpool and Man City because they always say it is very important that the players always play with the same mentality. I said that I didn’t like it because that attitude would rub off on the team in the long run and when we need it to chase games. I was laughed at but this game showed exactly what I meant:.

 

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/124303-brighton-3-0-post-match-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5753885

 

I used to love watching the likes of Vardy  pushing and pushing and Kasper shouting from the back urging players to go forward. We tried to have a go. We still try, but not with the same belief and consistency. This, Rodgers, really needs to be reflected on and changed.

 

Fearless Foxes.

I've got to agree with this completely! We were so fearless and also determined till the end and now we've lost a bit of that bite. Some players are more interested in how they look and what advert they are doing next and who's brand they want to support. There isn't that hunger to win games and more importantly that level of disappointment when we don't with some players, you see that in some players and games when we lose they are laughing, smiling and joking with some of the opposition, where as before you could tell it hurt them. 

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1 hour ago, Tom12345 said:

Enough has been said about the players, tactics and team selection. All I want to add is that, above all, what I find sadly missing in our team under Rodgers is the Fearless spirit that served us so well during the title winning season (and indeed in the two or so seasons since then even though we were not winning as much). The old guard led by the likes of Vardy, Albrighton, Mahrez, Simpson, Morgan, Fuchs and Kasper (and Evans as a joiner later) always seem to have this desire to win (shown by their body language), even though their output or skills may not get them over the line all the time. It was a different mentality but they chase endless causes (Vardy still does and Kasper still has that look of concern on his face when we are losing), they believed they belong and can win, and they push forward even if they could be hopeless long balls. We now have more skillful players and we can play  more beautiful football arguably, but it seems we have lost that grit and belief. We rather play safe and pass around at the back then to have a go but risk losing or losing the ball. Funnily enough, I think belief is above all the most important. We now have the skill but we don’t have as much that spirit. We are becoming a bit like Spurs in the last few seasons when they constantly play beautiful football but they never could put together a decent run to win the title (and they would like us lose games when they were expected to win). Admittedly though, we do not constantly play beautiful football - only some time - as we regularly put up subpar performances like against Everton and Fulham. Belief and team spirit is something fully under the responsibility of the manager - and to me this is what sets apart the best manager in the world from good but not great ones. I don’t know, but Rodgers’ interviews never gave me the impression that he has got this right yet. It also seem apparent on the pitch when we fans regularly moan about players strolling to the corner flag, passing sideways or backwards when we are chasing games in the last 10-15 mins, when we decide to pass backwards to our own half for freekicks when our CBs are up near the box ready for a header but the ball never came, etc.

 

I commented in the post match thread after our 3-0 win against Brighton that I didn’t like how we played the last 15 mins when we lacked drive. I said Klopp and Guardiola never allowed that to happen for Liverpool and Man City because they always say it is very important that the players always play with the same mentality. I said that I didn’t like it because that attitude would rub off on the team in the long run and when we need it to chase games. I was laughed at but this game showed exactly what I meant:.

 

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/124303-brighton-3-0-post-match-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5753885

 

I used to love watching the likes of Vardy  pushing and pushing and Kasper shouting from the back urging players to go forward. We tried to have a go. We still try, but not with the same belief and consistency. This, Rodgers, really needs to be reflected on and changed.

 

Fearless Foxes.

I agree with a lot of what you say, we lack that strong back bone, that gritty determination needed to win games. And I think a lot of it comes from Brendan... when you look at top managers their aides often have a gritty ness to them, the managers have the ability to “get into” their lads when needed. 
 

Like you said, Klopp, Jose, Fergie, Pep and Claudio all had that ability to do that, I sometimes think Brendans fairly calm and reserved personality translates to the players, I’m not having a dig at him in particular because I do like Rodgers and I think he is a top coach, but could he do more in terms of aggression to help get that extra bit out of us.......

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5 hours ago, JonnyBoy said:

Justin, fuchs, Mendy well below par, not first team and it shows. Justin's end product 9/10 is w**k, he's good going forward but cant defend he is infuriating to watch.

 

5 hours ago, Marshall Cockney Fox said:

I think as regards JJ, you might be against consensus. Poor delivery yesterday. But not against Brighton.

Yep. Nothing about it on Brighton. 

 

He put one right on Vardy's head after their first and it was a perfect cross. 

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4 hours ago, Babylon said:

I just don't understand why they only showed him the one angle. It's like the Villa cup penalty shite all over again where they didn't even check the right handball shout. VAR is a shambles. 

They do this everytime. It’s like the pr*cks in Stockley park decide what they want to happen by showing the angle that most suits them.

VAR is ruining the game. Perez’s pen would be soft but if Salahs getting joke ones like vs West Ham then it has to be consistent.

 

For me the game in general is dead currently. Yesterday Allan was down for 4 minutes and there was extra time wasting. Half time stoppage time I made to 5/6 minutes! I even said ‘they will get away with 4’ they gave 2!! Absolutely bloody ridiculous, literally cheating.


The current rules advocate diving and time wasting with no consequences. It’s just a massive pantomime and they need to sort the rules out right from the top!

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18 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

We've crammed in 6 games in 14 days - including a long trip to Ukraine - with several first choice regulars out injured. Let's not forget that.

The Euro matches are now taking their toll. Quite simply the players weekly training system has been dramatically changed. From last nights game there were many misplaced passes, Casper made errors even kicking out of play from a goal kick. I think tiredness and lack of preparation which they enjoyed before each prem game has gone. Selection was also strange last night, why not stick with the Thomas Barnes combination as it worked extremely well. 

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18 minutes ago, deanolegend1989 said:

They do this everytime. It’s like the pr*cks in Stockley park decide what they want to happen by showing the angle that most suits them.

VAR is ruining the game. Perez’s pen would be soft but if Salahs getting joke ones like vs West Ham then it has to be consistent.

 

For me the game in general is dead currently. Yesterday Allan was down for 4 minutes and there was extra time wasting. Half time stoppage time I made to 5/6 minutes! I even said ‘they will get away with 4’ they gave 2!! Absolutely bloody ridiculous, literally cheating.


The current rules advocate diving and time wasting with no consequences. It’s just a massive pantomime and they need to sort the rules out right from the top!

The ref does have the power to request video footage from more angles. He should know by now we are all seeing what he is seeing and if it still looks uncertain than the review should take longer. I don't mean asking 5 min and scraping the barrel for video evidence if there is none but the communication between cockly park and the game ref is consistently off. We will now never know so we move on as the good foxes we are.

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3 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

Enough has been said about the players, tactics and team selection. All I want to add is that, above all, what I find sadly missing in our team under Rodgers is the Fearless spirit that served us so well during the title winning season (and indeed in the two or so seasons since then even though we were not winning as much). The old guard led by the likes of Vardy, Albrighton, Mahrez, Simpson, Morgan, Fuchs and Kasper (and Evans as a joiner later) always seem to have this desire to win (shown by their body language), even though their output or skills may not get them over the line all the time. It was a different mentality but they chase endless causes (Vardy still does and Kasper still has that look of concern on his face when we are losing), they believed they belong and can win, and they push forward even if they could be hopeless long balls. We now have more skillful players and we can play  more beautiful football arguably, but it seems we have lost that grit and belief. We rather play safe and pass around at the back then to have a go but risk losing or losing the ball. Funnily enough, I think belief is above all the most important. We now have the skill but we don’t have as much that spirit. We are becoming a bit like Spurs in the last few seasons when they constantly play beautiful football but they never could put together a decent run to win the title (and they would like us lose games when they were expected to win). Admittedly though, we do not constantly play beautiful football - only some time - as we regularly put up subpar performances like against Everton and Fulham. Belief and team spirit is something fully under the responsibility of the manager - and to me this is what sets apart the best manager in the world from good but not great ones. I don’t know, but Rodgers’ interviews never gave me the impression that he has got this right yet. It also seem apparent on the pitch when we fans regularly moan about players strolling to the corner flag, passing sideways or backwards when we are chasing games in the last 10-15 mins, when we decide to pass backwards to our own half for freekicks when our CBs are up near the box ready for a header but the ball never came, etc.

 

I commented in the post match thread after our 3-0 win against Brighton that I didn’t like how we played the last 15 mins when we lacked drive. I said Klopp and Guardiola never allowed that to happen for Liverpool and Man City because they always say it is very important that the players always play with the same mentality. I said that I didn’t like it because that attitude would rub off on the team in the long run and when we need it to chase games. I was laughed at but this game showed exactly what I meant:.

 

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/124303-brighton-3-0-post-match-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5753885

 

I used to love watching the likes of Vardy  pushing and pushing and Kasper shouting from the back urging players to go forward. We tried to have a go. We still try, but not with the same belief and consistency. This, Rodgers, really needs to be reflected on and changed.

 

Fearless Foxes.

I think we have to appreciate that 2015/16 and later we had mostly seasoned, older professionals that still had something to prove. Experience goes a long way when the going gets tough. Our current squad are still on the learning curve and haven't yet experienced many set backs. It's all very well having young players that have great sell on value but it also comes with inconsistancy and naivety on occasions. 

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In my opinion, @ealingfox is correct. It’s easy for people to give the ‘perspective’ line to shut down people, but this season we have in general not been good enough.

We have had a handful of good performances but in general have been really poor.

 

Ive heard people say ‘what points have we not deserved?’. I could argue most of them!

 

- Sheffield Utd we were pathetic the entire 2nd half and 2 points knicked there.

- Wolves was an awful performance that we knicked from a huge slice of luck.

- Arsenal we were lucky to not go behind and we never win if we do because we are useless a majority of time when we go behind vs a very poor team I might add.

 

We deserved and played well vs West Brom, Leeds, Burnley and Brighton. The rest we’ve been fortunate. Even Man City, we never win that game if we go in 1-0 down. Walker gifted a pen when Vardy is going nowhere.

 

Switch it around, not one of our losses could anyone even question that we didn’t deserve! You could maybe argue Villa just because of the late nature, but we were pathetic in that game and no one can argue we deserved to win.

West ham and Liverpool absolutely ran us over. We looked like a mid table championship team in the FA Cup 3rd round vs them.

Fulham were very comfortable until the last 20 and Everton last night, we huffed and puffed but I’ve never been more sure we had lost the very second Kasper fumbles that in the net.

I have absolutely no confidence when we concede first because we have no fight to turn around a position of adversity ever. We can’t play through the midfield, Mendy is a passenger and too static , Tielemens doesn’t dictate as well without Wilf and/or Praet. So we end up going wide to Justin or Barnes who run into cul de sacs 99% of the time and get doubled up on.

Can see over and over again it happening, yet BR decides to not change the shape but just do a like for like ‘safe’ change taking off our most creative player Under for Perez. Gutless from management to playing staff.

 

Funnily enough, it was Everton last year at home that always upsets me how far we’ve dropped. We were losing 1-0 to Richarlson exactly the same. BR doesn’t wait as long, he changes it and actually ‘gambles’ puts nacho 2 up top and that ultimately wins the game. Ndidi and Tielemens ran the midfield in that 2nd half and I actually believed we could win that game. Even if we hadn’t won it, we fought hard, made gambles and the passion and fight was there. It was chalk and cheese compared to not only yesterday, but all 5 of our losses this season when the second the opener fly’s in we lose without a fight.

Its easy to say ‘it was one game’ Last night but it’s been nearly every game, even some we have won! BR has gotten more and more negative every month.
Vardy needs more help in games we concede first. It’s too easy to mark 1 up top when teams sit in a low block.

 

BR has had a huge problem with this for years even before us. I remember speaking to a Liverpool fan in 2014 before that big game vs Chelsea and when I said ‘you only need a draw, you must be huge favourites’ and he said ‘BR is great when we score first but if Chelsea score first he won’t be able to turn it around because he has no plan b’.

Yes Gerrard slipped, completely different game, but the point remains . He is a very scared manager to take risks when we’re losing and he only reacts at 2-0 when he feels it’s game over and he ‘has to’.


So yes it’s not a case of were 4th it’s ok. We have a very very huge problem that repeats itself of a lack of creativity. Vardy is icolated too often in games we are chasing, we need to get 2 on up top if we concede first and gamble, if we gamble and lose who cares? Not like we don’t lose anyway without a fight!

Wilf back in the middle will be a huge Improvement , Praet is so underrated, he needs to play more.

Obviously getting our fullbacks/CBS back will improve us too.

Its the first time though that I’m really not confident in BR that he actually knows what he’s doing.

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