Sidnei Tavares

[sacreblueits442]

2 minutes ago, AjcW said:

Still though... if he breaks through next season he'd still only just be 23.

 

Just all a bit short termist from young players now because they're advised badly. You'd think being at a club where the main man didn't 'make it' until he was late twenties would slow some of them down a bit!

...or perhaps he has seen where being in the U23s for any period, is a detriment to his career!!!

There are U23s who go out on loan and are at League 1 and struggling as we are not getting them on loan early enough. Just take a look at British players over in Europe who have progressed technically and thriving, We need to show we can match their ambitions, but we can't, if we continue to work within the framework of past systems.

  If you are good enough you are old enough, just slotting him in for 15/20 minutes in Europe could have been a catalyst for him to see that progress is within reach, not a pipedream.

[Pliskin]

They can **** off. 

[Guest SO1]

1 hour ago, Fox seen in Norwich said:

Did everyone else read brendans lines  in an Irish accent?

I could hear Ian Stringer. Clearly.

[Guest SO1]

1 hour ago, Foxxed said:

So he won’t play in the u23s because he wants to be in the first team?

 

This wouldn’t be a problem if Bren was letting academy players get a few minutes. (I read he likes a smaller training group so they won’t train with the team either)

 

On the other hand, you can’t cave in to someone downing tools to get what they want.

 

The whole first team training and academy player minutes needs to be reformed. But I doubt the club will let Tav force Bren’s hand: not a good precedent.

 

edit: @coolhandfox since I’ve reached my posting limit

 

The loan the odd bit for me.

He does look one of the better academy prospects and a Portuguese u21international. Could we have done more to get him a loan?

 

I honestly don’t think it’s as easy as we think to get a loan.

 

We assume the Championship club are begging to borrow a player for six months.

Nobody gets minutes unless they earn it in training playing at match speed. Period.  Could see that with Thomas. Came on and put in a solid performance, first time. Rodgers wont let these guys go on and embarrass themselves and piss off others who are fighting for minutes on the field.

If Tavares thinks he can cry and whine his way onto the first team at Barca than he can go. Perhaps back to Portugal or another weak league where he'll get what he wants. Hes just not good enough for this club now. Maybe he just doesn't have the mentality/heart to be at this level.

Edited 5 January 2021 by SO1

[Pliskin]

2 hours ago, themightyfin said:

Either wants first team football with us or wanted a loan to play fullest team football at championship level or higher. Nobody came in for him hence the standoff between him and the club. Was integrated back into the u23 for a couple of games but then expected to be pushed up. It never happened so we are where we are with him. Highly doubt he will be here beyond this season. 

Surely we should be looking to integrate him into the squad, he is talented and it would be crap if we managed to let him go so easily...

[Foxxed]

1 hour ago, Foxy_Bear said:

....Or he could be looking at KDH whose out on loan at 22 despite being clearly talented and thinking "no thanks"...

He only looked good in the u23s last season. Then he got a loan.

[coolhandfox]

3 hours ago, Foxxed said:

So he won’t play in the u23s because he wants to be in the first team?

 

This wouldn’t be a problem if Bren was letting academy players get a few minutes. (I read he likes a smaller training group so they won’t train with the team either)

Thomas 19 has played 10 games this season, if you are good enough you get a chance.

 

I suggest you look at the first team training photos on the club website before making a claim no acedemy players train with the first team.  

 

Newcastle first team training photos; Admiral Muskwe, Khanya Leshabela are there.

Spurs first team training photos; Ethan Fitzhugh, Khanya Leshabela, Harvey Godsmark Ford

 

Ben Nelson, Shane Flynn, Jakub Stolarczyk, Khanya Leshabela, made the bench vs Zorya Luhansk (A) in the Europa League.

Quote

 

On the other hand, you can’t cave in to someone downing tools to get what they want.

 

The whole first team training and academy player minutes needs to be reformed. But I doubt the club will let Tav force Bren’s hand: not a good precedent.

Really?

 

In recent season we have promoted Chilwell, Barnes, Hamza and Thomas from academy, as per the training videos and photos a lot of the Acedemy are taining with the First team. 

 

If they are good enough they will get minutes, but how may are good enough to get minutes in the PL for the team sitting 3rd?

 

Quote

edit: @coolhandfox since I’ve reached my posting limit

 

The loan the odd bit for me.

He does look one of the better academy prospects and a Portuguese u21international. Could we have done more to get him a loan?

 

I honestly don’t think it’s as easy as we think to get a loan.

 

We assume the Championship club are begging to borrow a player for six months.

If he was as good as some people think he is, someone would have came in.

 

We have loaned out KDH, Knight, Muskwe and Hirst to Championship clubs this season, even when you could question whether the later two are good enough.

 

Simply if you are good enough, you are old enough. Thomas 19, Fofana 20 etc.

Edited 5 January 2021 by coolhandfox

[Tom12345]

6 hours ago, Collymore said:

As for Tavares it sounds like he's a bit of a maverick who has massive self belief and is a bit cocky perhaps? Can't imagine that going down well with personalities such as Rodgers, Rudkin and certain members in our squad. 

 

Maybe I'm reading between the lines here but if he really is that good then surely we got to throw him in the deep end and give him the chance to 'walk the walk'. 

Rodgers seemed to quite like that in Maddison and gave him more slack than others because of his “self belief”?

[GingerrrFox]

The disappointment for me is he’s the only player that we currently have at the club (not including Kiernan because he’s out on loan) who can remotely do what Tielemans can in a double pivot. He could have got games at points this season if this had been sorted properly. 
 

His future here has been ****ed by all parties. It’s such a shame as he has all the talent in the world. There hasn’t been a single player come through our academy in the past 10 years with the raw talent he has for me. 

[Tom12345]

2 hours ago, AjcW said:

Imagine acting like that when we've just moved into the facilities we have. He's 19 ffs, what does he think the rush is? 

 

Does he not just look at Barnes and think... okay, i'll be patient, i'll get there. 

 

Clearly got terrible advisers, personally doesn't sound like the sort of character we'd want around, talent or no talent. 

Barnes was already out on loan at 19. Chilwell was already in or around the first team.

 

If he is truly talented (I have not seen him much), at 19, you ought to be starting to be around the first team. Ronaldo was already first team at Man Utd at 19. Our little Wes is already first team here after a £30m move.

 

Luke Thomas is in our squad already.

 

KDH is 22 and as talented as he is he should really start to be in first team at some EPL club. I really feel for KDH but hope he can get into our first team after his loan move. I worry that we lose him - he is a real talent and can slot in for Praet (if he gets pis*ed off after doing so well and still dropped to the bench) or Maddison (if he leaves one day). 

 

So we should get this guy a loan move but it is not easy as a championship club wants stability and he can’t just go there for a few months and be recalled (like Barnes). I suppose he also wants first team football now to improve, instead of hanging around the youth team or even the occasional 10 mins in Europe as some suggested. For a real talent to continue to improve, regular football is needed at his age. If we can’t get it here, it is fair he wants to leave (and he may become a hot shot in a few years and we will regret it).  The problem here is that unlike Barnes and Thomas (and previously Chilwell) who fill positions we were short for, we are quite strong in the middle ... with Tielemans, Praet, Mendy, Ndidi, Hamza, Maddison, Perez and KDH to come back. He probably does not see much of a way through here.

 

Another one I worry about is Leshebala.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 January 2021 by Tom12345

[SouthStandUpperTier]

38 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Nobody gets minutes unless they earn it in training playing at match speed. Period.  Could see that with Thomas. Came on and put in a solid performance, first time. Rodgers wont let these guys go on and embarrass themselves and piss off others who are fighting for minutes on the field.

If Tavares thinks he can cry and whine his way onto the first team at Barca than he can go. Perhaps back to Portugal or another weak league where he'll get what he wants. Hes just not good enough for this club now. Maybe he just doesn't have the mentality/heart to be at this level.

Thomas only got his chance (towards the end of last season) because he was the only fit left back at the club. Full credit to him for taking that chance, but if Chilwell and Fuchs had been fit he wouldn't have got that opportunity. Tavares may well have impressed too given the same opportunity, but alas we haven't had an injury crisis in midfield (thankfully). I also think it's easier to make the breakthrough to senior football in certain positions than it is in others, full back being one of them.

[Lambert09]

Doesn’t make any sense. If he’d been playing for the under 23s and playing well, he’d be in with a shot. Instead he’s wasted a huge period of his development 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

1 minute ago, Lambert09 said:

Doesn’t make any sense. If he’d been playing for the under 23s and playing well, he’d be in with a shot. Instead he’s wasted a huge period of his development 

Has he wasted his development? Or have the club? By all accounts he's been good whenever he's played for the U23s.

[Guest SO1]

4 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Thomas only got his chance (towards the end of last season) because he was the only fit left back at the club. Full credit to him for taking that chance, but if Chilwell and Fuchs had been fit he wouldn't have got that opportunity. Tavares may well have impressed too given the same opportunity, but alas we haven't had an injury crisis in midfield (thankfully). I also think it's easier to make the breakthrough to senior football in certain positions than it is in others, full back being one of them.

I doubt Thomas would have got his chance if he wasn't ready. We don't get to see them train.

I've seen Rodgers use Sterling(18yo) as a left back when he was at Liverpool and was in the situation we were last year. Rodgers would have found someone else if Thomas wasn't up for it.

 

There must be reason why this isn't working out. The relations between the player and the club should have never been allowed to deteriorate to this level. Tavares has been here how many years? And he doesn't know where he stands until now? If Tavares is as good as everyone says he is and he hasn't had a loan by this time. Somethings not right.

[TJB-fox]

3 hours ago, AjcW said:

Imagine acting like that when we've just moved into the facilities we have. He's 19 ffs, what does he think the rush is? 

 

Does he not just look at Barnes and think... okay, i'll be patient, i'll get there. 

 

Clearly got terrible advisers, personally doesn't sound like the sort of character we'd want around, talent or no talent. 

Kid just wants to play football what’s wrong with that?

He might also be looking at all the crappy loan moves we have had over the past few years with players going on to play at a relatively poor level. For every barnes and Chilwell there is an Aman Verma, george Thomas, Jack Barmby Josh Gordon etc. 

If what mightyfin is saying is true then it’s a shame he doesn’t feel the need to be patient but to start chucking round the old bad attitude card isn’t fair. Football is a short career nobody can slate him for wanting to get out there and play some first team football rather than sit in our u23’s. 

[AjcW]

5 minutes ago, TJB-fox said:

Kid just wants to play football what’s wrong with that?

He might also be looking at all the crappy loan moves we have had over the past few years with players going on to play at a relatively poor level. For every barnes and Chilwell there is an Aman Verma, george Thomas, Jack Barmby Josh Gordon etc. 

If what mightyfin is saying is true then it’s a shame he doesn’t feel the need to be patient but to start chucking round the old bad attitude card isn’t fair. Football is a short career nobody can slate him for wanting to get out there and play some first team football rather than sit in our u23’s. 

Yeah but the ones in bold were all crap... 

 

I'm sure plenty of clubs have had a look, there's a reason Barnes got good loans and a reason Chilwell got good loans, because people saw their talent and took a punt.

 

Tavares before this situation will have played in front of plenty of scouts.

 

I think the main issue is clubs not taking on many transfers at the minute in the champ, you only have to look at how few prem to champ loans there are currently.

I just think especially with everything going on at the minute, he could take his time a little bit and say that he's happy to play for the Unders until someone makes an offer or until we give him a game or two. 

[coolhandfox]

5 minutes ago, TJB-fox said:

Kid just wants to play football what’s wrong with that?

He might also be looking at all the crappy loan moves we have had over the past few years with players going on to play at a relatively poor level. For every barnes and Chilwell there is an Aman Verma, george Thomas, Jack Barmby Josh Gordon etc. 

If what mightyfin is saying is true then it’s a shame he doesn’t feel the need to be patient but to start chucking round the old bad attitude card isn’t fair. Football is a short career nobody can slate him for wanting to get out there and play some first team football rather than sit in our u23’s. 

Crappy loans? If clubs don't want them, there isn't much the club can do.

 

Isn't that just normal? Some will make it, some just aren't good enough?

 

9 players out on loan from the u23 this year, 9 last year seems a decent amount to me.

[sacreblueits442]

....the lesser spotted Tavares....!!!

I have seen quite a few U23s and did not get to see Tavares play except for one time. From memory he is a languid player skillful, not flashy or surprisingly standout. The  position he plays would be for an experience player within a team on loan, and unless you are playing at Brentford or Reading not many clubs are going to take a chance with flair as opposed to solid pragmatism.

  Placing him probably is not as straight forward as some has suggested and that could be the reason he has not had the offers that he probably should.

[TJB-fox]

25 minutes ago, AjcW said:

Yeah but the ones in bold were all crap... 

 

I'm sure plenty of clubs have had a look, there's a reason Barnes got good loans and a reason Chilwell got good loans, because people saw their talent and took a punt.

 

Tavares before this situation will have played in front of plenty of scouts.

 

I think the main issue is clubs not taking on many transfers at the minute in the champ, you only have to look at how few prem to champ loans there are currently.

I just think especially with everything going on at the minute, he could take his time a little bit and say that he's happy to play for the Unders until someone makes an offer or until we give him a game or two. 

True they were crap but for some context we paid a half decent sum for George Thomas (was it around 1mil?) which has far surpassed anything Sidnei Tavares has achieved in football so far so it wouldn’t be unrealistic for Tavares to not want to end up in the same position as him, Taft, Blyth, Ndukwu etc. Completely agree with what you’ve said in final paragraph too, although professional football is a completely separate bubble from the real world, the lad clearly just wants to crack on with his career. 

 

29 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Crappy loans? If clubs don't want them, there isn't much the club can do.

 

Isn't that just normal? Some will make it, some just aren't good enough?

 

9 players out on loan from the u23 this year, 9 last year seems a decent amount to me.

Not sure what you’re on about. All I’ve said is his character shouldn’t be bandied about saying he’s got a bad attitude for wanting to get out and play some games.

 

I haven’t criticised the club I think our academy is a lot better than people think and at least seems to produce players capable of decent first team football that we can sell.

 

When I say crappy loans I mean the less fortunate players that have gone out and hardly played on loan, come back and been released and had to join a non-league or lower league club to try and work their way back up, which rarely happens. Plenty of examples out there if you want me to name a few. Hardly unreasonable to say that Tavares may have looked at some of the older lads from the club this has happened to and fancied going down a different route. 

[Lambert09]

1 hour ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Has he wasted his development? Or have the club? By all accounts he's been good whenever he's played for the U23s.

If he’s refused to play under 23 football and earn his chance like everyone else, than that’s on him. 
 

It’s not the club refusing to play him until he signs a deal, it sounds like it’s the other way round 

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, SO1 said:

I doubt Thomas would have got his chance if he wasn't ready. We don't get to see them train.

I've seen Rodgers use Sterling(18yo) as a left back when he was at Liverpool and was in the situation we were last year. Rodgers would have found someone else if Thomas wasn't up for it.

 

There must be reason why this isn't working out. The relations between the player and the club should have never been allowed to deteriorate to this level. Tavares has been here how many years? And he doesn't know where he stands until now? If Tavares is as good as everyone says he is and he hasn't had a loan by this time. Somethings not right.

Absolutely, we have to trust professionals that see and deal with him every day. If we consider that there is a huge difference between Championship and Premiership football, how big is the the leap from u23 to a top 3 Premiership side! If he's not played or had loans there has to be reasons and just because no-one one here knows them doesn't mean that they don't exist. 

[coolhandfox]

26 minutes ago, TJB-fox said:

True they were crap but for some context we paid a half decent sum for George Thomas (was it around 1mil?) which has far surpassed anything Sidnei Tavares has achieved in football so far so it wouldn’t be unrealistic for Tavares to not want to end up in the same position as him, Taft, Blyth, Ndukwu etc. Completely agree with what you’ve said in final paragraph too, although professional football is a completely separate bubble from the real world, the lad clearly just wants to crack on with his career. 

 

Not sure what you’re on about. All I’ve said is his character shouldn’t be bandied about saying he’s got a bad attitude for wanting to get out and play some games.

 

I haven’t criticised the club I think our academy is a lot better than people think and at least seems to produce players capable of decent first team football that we can sell.

 

When I say crappy loans I mean the less fortunate players that have gone out and hardly played on loan, come back and been released and had to join a non-league or lower league club to try and work their way back up, which rarely happens. Plenty of examples out there if you want me to name a few. Hardly unreasonable to say that Tavares may have looked at some of the older lads from the club this has happened to and fancied going down a different route. 

Just interested in your point of view.

Edited 6 January 2021 by coolhandfox

[baldeagle]

Sorry but in my opinion he can jog the **** on . I trust our owners who are very very reasonable people and as a club we shouldn’t let some youth try to dictate to us .

[Guest SO1]

This club has come so far over the last 6 or 7 years. Player development is something we have to get absolutely right. Its not rocket science just pick a successful model and follow it.

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

If Gray came off the bench recently surely this chap can sit on it for a bit? Maybe that might appease him, although I have to say apart from rave reviews on this forum I’ve no idea about him.