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The awkward Celtic truth made clear as day by Brendan Rodgers' Leicester team sheet - Keith Jackson

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1 hour ago, dynamark said:

Wasnt there Celtic club in Thringstone? Certainly used to be one of each in Corby obviously due to the high number of SCots in the steel industry

I think it was a Rangers club wasn’t it? 

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On 07/02/2021 at 02:03, Foxy_Bear said:

There is so much nonsense here it is too hard to ignore.... There is no way I could get through all of it as it's 1.30am and I have work on Monday but I'll tackle the obvious guff. 

 

You said..."Buses normally leave from all over Scotland every w/e to ferry supporters to whereever Rangers and Celtic are playing despite which their gate receipts are lower than most PL clubs"

Reality.... Rangers and Celtic have higher average attendances than all but 4 EPL teams with more season tickets sold than the majority, their gate receipts would be amongst the highest in England. 

 

You said.... "clubs other than C and R gates are unbelieveably low compared with England for obvious reasons"

Reality... In the 18-19 season, per population, Scottish football was one of the highest attended leagues in Europe with gate recieps far higher than countries of similar size like Norway and Portugal. 

 

You said... "Both clubs have been remarkably good at incompetence,particularly financial"

Reality... Although true for Rangers, Celtic are a remarkably well run club and post annual profits almost every year. Even post covid, they managed a (very small) profit. 

 

You said... "the last civilised and real quality player in Scottish football was Henrik Larssen"

Reality.... Virgil van Dijk and Andy Robertson are both considered by many to be amongst the best in their position in world Football and both came directly from Scotland. 

 

.... That's plenty from me for now. 

 

About the so called "guff". Sorry delay in replying, LCFC 's fortunes were devouring most of my allowed posts.

 

1/ Rangers and Celtic have higher home attendances . Their gate receipts might be high .Unfortunately even the Scottish PL will not let them ,even Rangers, play all their games at home. They have to play half their games away in tiny stadia compared with EPL clubs . I have no idea of how gate receipts are distributed but I assumed that the away club receives less than the home club. The season ticket picture is as you say although I think Rangers season ticket revenue which Craig "Crook" used to buy the club for peanuts is still the subject of various court actions . I have no idea where C and R figure in the various worlds wealthiest clubs lists,  I only look down as far as Leicester (we are usually around 20th, I think slightly higher at the moment, where we are dwarfed by both Manchesters ,Chelsea. Spurs Liverpool and Arsenal . We are slowly gaining ground. You'd have to tell me where C and R were, fairly well up I should think but then they probably would be if they didn't play football at all.

 

2/ Per population you are probably correct. I did not include those words.

 

3/ My words following said something like just as  Celtic recovered Rangers started drowning or words to that effect. Both clubs got ECL income every two years on average , despite biannual participation in the ECL neither club usually lasts until Christmas. Dropping into the EFL before elimination. Despite this money Celtic went within minutes of total bankruptcy in the mid nineties , Sam McGinn ? stepping in at the last moment to save them. As Celtic were recovering Rangers went worse than bankrupt with the tax authorites owed millions still .  I think that in the last 100 seasons  all other clubs combined have won Scotlands top division 19 times Rangers and Celtic ,the old firm taking the rest (81). The total statistics are even worse. Had the clubs been in England in the PL they probably would have ceased to exist had PL and FA rules  and company law been applied . Thats probably true in Scotland too but when so much of professional soccer is wrapped up in just two clubs,rules were bent. Of course Tax Law can't be so easily bent and Rangers and the tax authorities are still in dispute as far as I know ,the only certainty being they still owe millions.

The only other city of any size ,Edinburgh has two clubs Hibs and Hearts teetering  on bankruptcy regularly. I can't remember which one is currently in trouble but I think its Hearts. They were certainly offering meals in a tent on the pitch during the covid crisis not long ago to raise funds.

 

4/ Virgil van Dijk when he played for Celtic was a £1. 4 m player . He went to Celtic ,I think from a Dutch club who were trying to get rid (he had a lot of medical problems). They got no offers despite asking around Dutch clubs until Celtic offered. He did well at Celtic ( they were I think then absolute rulers of football in Scotland . Rangers having been relegated to the 4th tier by a combinattion of legal and financial problems were preoccupied in clawing their way back to the  PL, a 4-5 year job). Eventually he became valued at £14 m which Saints paid for him and due to their development of him and probably the overcoming of his medical problems he became the star player Liverpool have to day. I'm not sure who Andy Robertson is ,Roberts and Robertson are common names in football.  He's a good player ,if he's the Liverpool defender, and some no doubt might include him among the world's best. England 's PL currently has a dearth of good defenders. At RB probably 20 players and at LB slightly , very slightly less. At LCFC we have 4 possibly 6 defenders who could be described as considered by many  among the best in the world at their position. Note I  mentioned Larssen as a "player" in Scottish football , neither Robertson or Van Dijk are playing in Scxottish football and certainly Van Dijk only touched Scotland briefly between Holland and England, as a developing player.

 

I presume you are Scottish. As I said when I went to Scotland about 50 years ago I  preferred to watch Scottish football. Aberdeen and Dundee United were challenging the old firm and Scotland had more good ball players which I prefer to watch. Sadly as everyone over fifty will know Scottish football has plumbed many ,many lows since then although I am glad to see the National team is definitely on the rise in the last year .

 

Before accusing anyone of writing guff you should check your facts. before writing a load of  guff . That includes reading what is actually written .  As I said early in my post I don't know it all regarding Scottish football. I now don't follow it at all except occasionally checking the Celtic/Rangers matches just as I check out the English Championship matches. When I moved to Scotland the country, which could always give England a good match was alive with football chat and meant a lot to the nation. Living there now the only conversations one would have were concerned with "whats gone wrong with Scottish football ?". Its been the subject of so many STV programs .If you visit Scotland still you must have noticed how football has dropped down the list of conversational subjects.

Edited by Alan Frost
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I can assure you that i read your post correctly. 

 

On your first point you were talking about Rangers and Celtic and how people travel all over to see them play but despite that  the gate receipts are low. Now, maybe it was your grammar that let you down but the way in which it was written, alluded to you STILL talking about Rangers and Celtic. 

If indeed you weren't, and instead you were talking about the rest of the league.... Its still not true. Scottish football's income ranked 11th in europe a season or two ago and that's almost entirely down to physical attendance, going back to my point about it being well supported in direct relation to how many people there are in the country (1 person in every 45 attended games every week before covid, I'm sure I read). This all adds up to Football still very much being a huge talking point within the country, I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise but take it from someone who has lived here all his life, the level of interest has never dropped. 

 

As for your talk about financial difficulty, Celtic are a very well run club like I've said. You may want to state that when you're making comments like this, you're talking about almost 30 years ago when Fergis McCann stepped in to save Celtic. We've been in financial difficulty more recent than that. 

Rangers are a terribly run club and have been since the golden era of the 80s and 90s that you are talking about. That's what led them to be liquadated. They weren't relegated down the leagues like you say, no rules where broken. A new club started from the bottom that bought out all of Rangers assets. 

 

I will admit that I assumed you meant Larsson was the last quality player to COME OUT of Scotland but if you indeed meant the last to PLAY in scotland then I'm afraid I still have to disagree. Sutton, Hartson, Petrov, Arteta, Klos, Ronald De Boer all played in scotland after Larsson and all where absolutely top quality players. 

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29 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

I can assure you that i read your post correctly. 

 

On your first point you were talking about Rangers and Celtic and how people travel all over to see them play but despite that  the gate receipts are low. Now, maybe it was your grammar that let you down but the way in which it was written, alluded to you STILL talking about Rangers and Celtic. 

If indeed you weren't, and instead you were talking about the rest of the league.... Its still not true. Scottish football's income ranked 11th in europe a season or two ago and that's almost entirely down to physical attendance, going back to my point about it being well supported in direct relation to how many people there are in the country (1 person in every 45 attended games every week before covid, I'm sure I read). This all adds up to Football still very much being a huge talking point within the country, I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise but take it from someone who has lived here all his life, the level of interest has never dropped. 

 

As for your talk about financial difficulty, Celtic are a very well run club like I've said. You may want to state that when you're making comments like this, you're talking about almost 30 years ago when Fergis McCann stepped in to save Celtic. We've been in financial difficulty more recent than that. 

Rangers are a terribly run club and have been since the golden era of the 80s and 90s that you are talking about. That's what led them to be liquadated. They weren't relegated down the leagues like you say, no rules where broken. A new club started from the bottom that bought out all of Rangers assets. 

 

I will admit that I assumed you meant Larsson was the last quality player to COME OUT of Scotland but if you indeed meant the last to PLAY in scotland then I'm afraid I still have to disagree. Sutton, Hartson, Petrov, Arteta, Klos, Ronald De Boer all played in scotland after Larsson and all where absolutely top quality players. 

Just a small point...

 

Your points are well made and informative but i think the statistic you are using about the number of people per population attending games in Scotland is heavily distorted by the Rangers & Celtic attendances.

This is probably the case in most countries but i doubt there are many other countries where if you removed attendances for all matches excluding the Top 2 supported teams you would see such a dramatic fall in the number of attendees per population. I doubt whether either of the 2 professional clubs in my home city of edinburgh would survive for long financially without gate receipts from celtic and rangers fixtures.

In the PL and Bundesliga, most stadiums are full regardless of who is playing....that is definitely NOT the case in Scottish football

 

Scottish football is dying below the old firm (both of whom are also dependent upon each other for financial sustainability!) and most SPL clubs are no better supported or financially secure than lower league and non-league clubs in England.....and those below the SPL are effectively semi-amateur teams now.

 

None of this is relevant to this forum in any way but just thought id add a bit of context for you....

 

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1 hour ago, Foxy_Bear said:

I can assure you that i read your post correctly. 

 

On your first point you were talking about Rangers and Celtic and how people travel all over to see them play but despite that  the gate receipts are low. Now, maybe it was your grammar that let you down but the way in which it was written, alluded to you STILL talking about Rangers and Celtic. 

If indeed you weren't, and instead you were talking about the rest of the league.... Its still not true. Scottish football's income ranked 11th in europe a season or two ago and that's almost entirely down to physical attendance, going back to my point about it being well supported in direct relation to how many people there are in the country (1 person in every 45 attended games every week before covid, I'm sure I read). This all adds up to Football still very much being a huge talking point within the country, I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise but take it from someone who has lived here all his life, the level of interest has never dropped. 

 

As for your talk about financial difficulty, Celtic are a very well run club like I've said. You may want to state that when you're making comments like this, you're talking about almost 30 years ago when Fergis McCann stepped in to save Celtic. We've been in financial difficulty more recent than that. 

Rangers are a terribly run club and have been since the golden era of the 80s and 90s that you are talking about. That's what led them to be liquadated. They weren't relegated down the leagues like you say, no rules where broken. A new club started from the bottom that bought out all of Rangers assets. 

 

I will admit that I assumed you meant Larsson was the last quality player to COME OUT of Scotland but if you indeed meant the last to PLAY in scotland then I'm afraid I still have to disagree. Sutton, Hartson, Petrov, Arteta, Klos, Ronald De Boer all played in scotland after Larsson and all where absolutely top quality players. 

I'll send you a polite pm, all of this is probably of little interest to LCFC forum members (altho LCFC had and still have strong Scottish connections ) and forum "squabbling"  is time consuming and undignified to us both. I had a great friend who came from Hinckley and our 2015/6 run of pride and pleasure was probably trebled by being able to share the results and  stress until about March /April when it became all pleasure. . I used to be actually  afraid to switch on for the results all through January and February.

 

If we ever get a similar run we might  meet for a beer (I thought we might do it again this year up until Everton and I'm one of those I'm afraid who think we would be top of the league if BR had simply not played Perez or iheanacho in those matches) . I wouldn't want to lose BR  though. As I say there's a lot I don't know about Scottish football and I'm sure I would learn a lot about Scottish Football and this forum. I don't feel i can send you a pm without permission so I hope you'll get back to me to do that. You can certainly email me, no problem. I presume you can read my email off my profile. Sutton, Hartson de Boer were all good players ,I don't know much and have n 't  seen much of the others but I'm sure you would n't claim they were in Larssen's class either as a player or as an example of gentlemanly conduct.  He was a sot of Vardy in many ways .De Boer if I've got the right guy was the only player ever capable of scoring through a concrete wall. RGDS. A ps . I've just noticed Foxyladies post and picture. I'm 77 and now harmless but if she'll forgive me saying so ,I think I'd probably ,with all due repects, rather meet her for a beer.

Edited by Alan Frost
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44 minutes ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Just a small point...

 

Your points are well made and informative but i think the statistic you are using about the number of people per population attending games in Scotland is heavily distorted by the Rangers & Celtic attendances.

This is probably the case in most countries but i doubt there are many other countries where if you removed attendances for all matches excluding the Top 2 supported teams you would see such a dramatic fall in the number of attendees per population. I doubt whether either of the 2 professional clubs in my home city of edinburgh would survive for long financially without gate receipts from celtic and rangers fixtures.

In the PL and Bundesliga, most stadiums are full regardless of who is playing....that is definitely NOT the case in Scottish football

 

Scottish football is dying below the old firm (both of whom are also dependent upon each other for financial sustainability!) and most SPL clubs are no better supported or financially secure than lower league and non-league clubs in England.....and those below the SPL are effectively semi-amateur teams now.

 

None of this is relevant to this forum in any way but just thought id add a bit of context for you....

Nothing that you have said is wrong. The numbers will be distorted by the old firm but like you touched on, there aren't alot of leagues in Europe where the same isn't true. 

You mentioned Germany but Germany is a bit of an anomaly in that their FA actually knows what it's doing. Take Porto and Benfica out of portugal and the numbers would be massively altered, PSV and Ajax out of Holland, the Moscows out of Russia or the Pragues out of Czech etc and it would have the same kind of effect. In reality there is probably about 5 leagues in all of Europe where this wouldnt be the case. 

 

Similarly, how many teams in those leagues financially depend on the teams mentioned? Most of them. 

 

Scotland isn't really any different than most leagues in Europe in that regard. It's actually the nig 5 leagues of England, Spain, France, Germany and Italy that are peculiar in that regard. 

 

In terms of the finances that are coming in to clubs, gate recieps aren't the issue, it's the god awful TV deal that we have up here that hog ties the clubs. If the only way to watch any form of football was to go watch it live, Scotland wouldnt be too far removed from any other country. 

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30 minutes ago, Alan Frost said:

I'll send you a polite pm, all of this is probably of little interest to LCFC forum members (altho LCFC had and still have strong Scottish connections ) and forum "squabbling"  is time consuming and undignified to us both. I had a great friend who came from Hinckley and our 2015/6 run of pride and pleasure was probably trebled by being able to share the results and  stress until about March /April when it became all pleasure. . I used to be actually  afraid to switch on for the results all through January and February.

 

If we ever get a similar run we might  meet for a beer (I thought we might do it again this year up until Everton and I'm one of those I'm afraid who think we would be top of the league if BR had simply not played Perez or iheanacho in those matches) . I wouldn't want to lose BR  though. As I say there's a lot I don't know about Scottish football and I'm sure I would learn a lot about Scottish Football and this forum. I don't feel i can send you a pm without permission so I hope you'll get back to me to do that. You can certainly email me, no problem. I presume you can read my email off my profile. Sutton, Hartson de Boer were all good players ,I don't know much and have n 't  seen much of the others but I'm sure you would n't claim they were in Larssen's class either as a player or as an example of gentlemanly conduct.  He was a sot of Vardy in many ways .De Boer if I've got the right guy was the only player ever capable of scoring through a concrete wall. RGDS. A ps . I've just noticed Foxyladies post and picture. I'm 77 and now harmless but if she'll forgive me saying so ,I think I'd probably ,with all due repects, rather meet her for a beer.

Feel free to PM me, pal. 

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50 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Yes, Rangers and Celtic have worldwide fan bases. Yet...

 

Leicester City's Twitter followers are DOUBLE what Celtic and Rangers have COMBINED.

 

(Not that it means much obviously.)

I don't read anything into these at all. These football twitter folk follow all clubs, that's why we have so much shit banter posted when the club tweet something.

 

Plus the English Premier League is the biggest/most known league in the World. People are just interested in the league too.

 

Celtic and Rangers have massive fan bases. There isn't a comparison between the English PL and Scottish PL. There isn't enough money in Scottish football to put them on the same level.

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49 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

This is a curious thread, inasmuch as it isn't directly about Leicester City at all. Might it be worth moving?

The OP was reported reasons why Rodgers left Celtic for a parochial English Team but agree it's now more about how big are Celtic and Rangers?

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15 minutes ago, davieG said:

The OP was reported reasons why Rodgers left Celtic for a parochial English Team but agree it's now more about how big are Celtic and Rangers?

I'd lost sight of the OP you made. I'm sure you've experienced threads being blown off course a few times... :) 

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1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

I'd lost sight of the OP you made. I'm sure you've experienced threads being blown off course a few times... :) 

Well I guess it had a very limit range for discussion and yes sometimes it's good some times not, if it's not it disappears so I presumes this is ok for some.

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3 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Yes, Rangers and Celtic have worldwide fan bases. Yet...

 

Leicester City's Twitter followers are DOUBLE what Celtic and Rangers have COMBINED.

 

(Not that it means much obviously.)

Pretty amazing though nevertheless. 

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12 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

I dont know anyone outside of the UK who has heard of celtic, I expect the international fanbase is largely 40+ age group.  As has been said, nothing lasts forever and that includes giant club status.

:nigel:

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5 hours ago, Chrysalis said:

I dont know anyone outside of the UK who has heard of celtic, I expect the international fanbase is largely 40+ age group.  As has been said, nothing lasts forever and that includes giant club status.

They’ve appeared in cup finals of European competition within those 40 years and Celtic in particular have taken big European scalps in living memory.  
 

I think any consciously thinking football fans in Europe will be aware of the Old Firm derby and a team who have regularly appeared in the group stages of the Champions League. In same way most folk are aware of say Shakhtar Donetsk or Salzburg 

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I see Celtic / Rangers in the same way I see other former big European clubs like Galatasaray, Ajax, Marseille, AC Milan, Roma, Inter, Parma, Nottingham Forest, Benfica, Goteborg, Valencia etc

 

When they were good, they were great. 
 

However the football world has changed and is now largely dominated by 10 clubs at best, plus the Premier League teams. Without the commercial revenue, they can’t compete with mid to bottom end Premier League clubs. 
 

Real Madrid have been the constant for years. 
 

If you were to draw up the current top 50 teams in European football. Would those two feature? 
 

Without that they’re just another Newcastle United at best (fanatical fan base), or a Red Star Belgrade. 
 

I’d love to see a league cup revamped though and include Scottish, Irish and Welsh teams too. 

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On 25/01/2021 at 22:02, gurru991 said:

The Scottish Football League would benefit from these 2 teams leaving . The League would have some real completion. Just where you would put Celtic & Rangers, I don't know. They would want Premier League but would never survive !

If the Old Firm were ever allowed into the EPL the TV money would enable them to compete on equal terms pretty quickly. It is a bit ridiculous that two clubs which can attract crowds of 50,000 every week in normal times have a derisory playing budget comparable with Bournemouth and Burnley. I don't think the money men would consider what might happen if either of them were relegated. That would be a problem for the English and Scottish FAs to sort out.

It has been talked about for years and nothing has happened. At the present Scottish independence is much more likely, and this has been given a big helping hand by the mounting chaos in trade and industry as the full impact of Brexit starts to be felt. 

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4 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

If the Old Firm were ever allowed into the EPL the TV money would enable them to compete on equal terms pretty quickly. It is a bit ridiculous that two clubs which can attract crowds of 50,000 every week in normal times have a derisory playing budget comparable with Bournemouth and Burnley. I don't think the money men would consider what might happen if either of them were relegated. That would be a problem for the English and Scottish FAs to sort out.

It has been talked about for years and nothing has happened. At the present Scottish independence is much more likely, and this has been given a big helping hand by the mounting chaos in trade and industry as the full impact of Brexit starts to be felt. 

If they were ever allowed to join the Premier League that would be me finished. how anyone can even think of this is beyond me why would we want these in to replace two clubs it's bad enough with the Rich 6 wanting to reduce the league. Anyway I'd be amazed if the Rich 6 would ever contemplate the idea as they could be a massive threat to their position.

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13 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

If the Old Firm were ever allowed into the EPL the TV money would enable them to compete on equal terms pretty quickly. It is a bit ridiculous that two clubs which can attract crowds of 50,000 every week in normal times have a derisory playing budget comparable with Bournemouth and Burnley. I don't think the money men would consider what might happen if either of them were relegated. That would be a problem for the English and Scottish FAs to sort out.

It has been talked about for years and nothing has happened. At the present Scottish independence is much more likely, and this has been given a big helping hand by the mounting chaos in trade and industry as the full impact of Brexit starts to be felt. 

I've said it before, if Rangers and Celtic joined the PL and had access to the funds available Rangers would spunk away money on big name 30 year olds on massive wages and challenge pretty quickly but within 7-10 years they would be bottom of the championship, fighting off administrators. 

Celtic would take time, invest in infrastructure and younger players with a bigger potential and sell on fee. They would initially be lower mid table but by the time that Rangers had the collection cups out, Celtic would be real challengers.

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On 07/02/2021 at 09:34, King of Gipsy Lane said:

I suspect you can’t understand an Irish accent 🤣🤣🤣 just google and start to look up Celtic Supporters Clubs globally, Celtic has developed a fanbase in a number of countries around the world, with over 160 official supporters' clubs in over 20 countries around the world. Research in 2003 by Capita Consulting in conjunction with the Cranfield Institute estimated the worldwide fan base as being around nine million 🤷‍♂️
 

 

Realistically though this 'global' fanbase consists nearly exclusively of irish and scottish ex Pat's. No way are there supporters clubs in Malaysia or Dubai filled with native born Celtic fans. And this research (with a wildly over the top final estimation) is from 2003. Even if it is remotely accurate Celtic have achieved nothing globally in the last 17 years. Fan bases from abroad follow the glory and bar a single win against Barcelona Celtic dont provide any.

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1 hour ago, Gubbins said:

Realistically though this 'global' fanbase consists nearly exclusively of irish and scottish ex Pat's. No way are there supporters clubs in Malaysia or Dubai filled with native born Celtic fans. And this research (with a wildly over the top final estimation) is from 2003. Even if it is remotely accurate Celtic have achieved nothing globally in the last 17 years. Fan bases from abroad follow the glory and bar a single win against Barcelona Celtic dont provide any.

 

As I pointed out though, people across the globe follow both Old Firm sides for reasons other than footballing success. I came across a Celtic club in Dubrovnik on holiday once. Why? Croatia's a Catholic country and some football fans there like to associate with that aspect of Celtic's image. They're a "second club" for loads of people because of what they represent rather than whether they're any good in a European context.

 

Ever been to an "Irish bar" abroad which didn't have any Celtic merch in?

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