Soumaré (signed)

[Scotch]

58 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

See this view is flawed, that was what we tried to do prior to this season and our record vs the supposed bigger clubs was hideous. This season we beat Spurs, Chelsea and drew vs Man Utd by going 4-2-3-1 without sacrificing one of Barnes or Maddison. Both players were exceptional in all of those games.

 

Now you could argue that Albrighton as opposed to an attacking right winger is the reason for our dominance in such games but the importance of Maddison was so crucial to this as well. I don't understand the thought process of spending £25-30m on a defensive midfielder that's supposedly going to help us in big games? Which also makes Albrighton's limitations now exposed and therefore we need a top class attacking right winger which is another £25-30m. 

 

If we can afford Soumare, a right winger, a striker and Gosens then great but baring in mind we probably want another centre half as well I'm at a loss how we have the funds for it. Out of all those positions, Soumare is the less of a priority surely?

 

I think you're right. CM is probably low down on the priority list however (and I'm just speculating here), if it were a case of the recruitment team and/or Rodgers rating this lad really highly and not wanting to pass on the opportunity to sign him whilst his cost is relatively low, they would maybe rethink their strategy. 

 

I reckon that this is potentially the case with Gosens too. 

[escape2victory]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

See this view is flawed, that was what we tried to do prior to this season and our record vs the supposed bigger clubs was hideous. This season we beat Spurs, Chelsea and drew vs Man Utd by going 4-2-3-1 without sacrificing one of Barnes or Maddison. Both players were exceptional in all of those games.

 

Now you could argue that Albrighton as opposed to an attacking right winger is the reason for our dominance in such games but the importance of Maddison was so crucial to this as well. I don't understand the thought process of spending £25-30m on a defensive midfielder that's supposedly going to help us in big games? Which also makes Albrighton's limitations now exposed and therefore we need a top class attacking right winger which is another £25-30m. 

 

If we can afford Soumare, a right winger, a striker and Gosens then great but baring in mind we probably want another centre half as well I'm at a loss how we have the funds for it. Out of all those positions, Soumare is the less of a priority surely?

 

I’d actually argue the opposite to that. The reason we were so poor against the big boys last season was because we went toe to toe with them and didn’t change our game plan at all, and basically got picked off, Man City away and Liverpool home spring to mind.

 

I think the reason we have had more success against the big boys this season is because Rodgers has set us up more compact and he has to a degree changed his principles and we have conceded possession, dropped deep, played 3/5 at the back and it has worked for us. Next season if he wants to go to a back 4, with full backs bombing on, then I think he feels he needs this guy in there.

 

last season when we had Perez Maddison Barnes behind a striker, against the big boys we were naive and got schooled. Same will happen next season.

 

if you want your dynamic left footed right winger, Barnes doing the same on the left, full backs over lapping, just Ndidi holding, your not going to get away with playing a 10 also

Edited 6 May 2021 by escape2victory

[Steve Earle]

1 hour ago, Foxy_Bear said:

I think you're right. CM is probably low down on the priority list however (and I'm just speculating here), if it were a case of the recruitment team and/or Rodgers rating this lad really highly and not wanting to pass on the opportunity to sign him whilst his cost is relatively low, they would maybe rethink their strategy. 

 

I reckon that this is potentially the case with Gosens too. 

I respectfully disagree with this and with @Ric Flair post to which you're replying FB. If we're going to play CL games next season, compete in the PL, and give both domestic cups a go, we're going to need two top class payers for each position, and players who are flexible enough to cover more than one position too, so that we can change formations within games without making substitutions. For that (rather long-winded) reason, we need a LWB/LB and cover for Youri (but who's more physical, less technical) as much as any of the more talked about positions.

 

As I've said before, IF (capital letters IF!) we gat CL football I expect five signings (and some creative book-balancing).

[Ric Flair]

19 minutes ago, Steve Earle said:

I respectfully disagree with this and with @Ric Flair post to which you're replying FB. If we're going to play CL games next season, compete in the PL, and give both domestic cups a go, we're going to need two top class payers for each position, and players who are flexible enough to cover more than one position too, so that we can change formations within games without making substitutions. For that (rather long-winded) reason, we need a LWB/LB and cover for Youri (but who's more physical, less technical) as much as any of the more talked about positions.

 

As I've said before, IF (capital letters IF!) we gat CL football I expect five signings (and some creative book-balancing).

But do the maths mate, it doesn't compute. If we have the finances then fine but this position is the least priority of the players have been linked heavily with.

 

We need a RW and striker 1st

A LWB/LB such as Gosens makes absolute sense.

 

Get those 3 in and depending on finances and departures then get an upgrade to Mendy and a 4th CB.

[Ric Flair]

26 minutes ago, escape2victory said:

I’d actually argue the opposite to that. The reason we were so poor against the big boys last season was because we went toe to toe with them and didn’t change our game plan at all, and basically got picked off, Man City away and Liverpool home spring to mind.

 

I think the reason we have had more success against the big boys this season is because Rodgers has set us up more compact and he has to a degree changed his principles and we have conceded possession, dropped deep, played 3/5 at the back and it has worked for us. Next season if he wants to go to a back 4, with full backs bombing on, then I think he feels he needs this guy in there.

 

last season when we had Perez Maddison Barnes behind a striker, against the big boys we were naive and got schooled. Same will happen next season.

 

if you want your dynamic left footed right winger, Barnes doing the same on the left, full backs over lapping, just Ndidi holding, your not going to get away with playing a 10 also

We didn't do that last season though.

 

Chelsea away, Barnes didn't start and Maddison was on the wing with Choudhury brought in as extra protection.

 

Man Utd away, Maddison again on the wing and an extra DCM in Choudhury.

 

Liverpool away, Praet the extra midfielder with Maddison on the wing

 

Spurs at home - didn't sacrifice a winger for an extra central midfielder and won

 

Arsenal at home - didn't sacrifice a winger for an extra central midfielder and won

 

Man City away - didn't sacrifice a winger for an extra central midfielder and lost

 

Liverpool at home - sacrificed a winger for an extra central midfielder and lost

 

Chelsea at home - Ndidi out injured, went with a 4-2-3-1 with 2 wingers and drew

 

Man City at home - Ndidi injured and played 3-5-2

 

Arsenal away - 3-5-2

 

Spurs away - 3-5-2

 

Man Utd at home - 3-5-2

 

So as you can see not only very mixed results but also mixed systems. When we went toe to toe in our 4-2-3-1 with 2

wingers like you referred to we beat Spurs, drew at home to Chelsea and lost away at Man City.

 

At the start of the season when we played a very cagey system we drew away at Chelsea and lost away at Man Utd and Liverpool. 

 

The games towards the end of the season vs Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd were all after the restart where we were playing 3-5-2 and were generally dog shit anyway.

 

 

 

[Dusty]

46 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

We didn't do that last season though.

 

Chelsea away, Barnes didn't start and Maddison was on the wing with Choudhury brought in as extra protection.

 

Man Utd away, Maddison again on the wing and an extra DCM in Choudhury.

 

Liverpool away, Praet the extra midfielder with Maddison on the wing

 

Spurs at home - didn't sacrifice a winger for an extra central midfielder and won

 

Arsenal at home - didn't sacrifice a winger for an extra central midfielder and won

 

Man City away - didn't sacrifice a winger for an extra central midfielder and lost

 

Liverpool at home - sacrificed a winger for an extra central midfielder and lost

 

Chelsea at home - Ndidi out injured, went with a 4-2-3-1 with 2 wingers and drew

 

Man City at home - Ndidi injured and played 3-5-2

 

Arsenal away - 3-5-2

 

Spurs away - 3-5-2

 

Man Utd at home - 3-5-2

 

So as you can see not only very mixed results but also mixed systems. When we went toe to toe in our 4-2-3-1 with 2

wingers like you referred to we beat Spurs, drew at home to Chelsea and lost away at Man City.

 

At the start of the season when we played a very cagey system we drew away at Chelsea and lost away at Man Utd and Liverpool. 

 

The games towards the end of the season vs Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd were all after the restart where we were playing 3-5-2 and were generally dog shit anyway.

 

 

 

The way we played against ‘the big 6’ last season was very different to this, with the exception of the fa cup game against United. 
 

We sat back in our own half in a low block and only pressed them when we had a good chance of winning the ball. Compared to last season when we pressed all over the park and let them drag us around and then they utilised the space. Both pep and arteta came out at the beginning of the season and had a go at us for playing “anti football” against them. 
 

if you compare the stats of the city win this season to the 5-2 defeat last season. We had less possession and only 2 more shots when we beat them to when we lost, we just had a much more effective system. 

Edited 6 May 2021 by Dusty

[Ric Flair]

32 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

I think the general consensus from those results their suggests all of those sides have great quality in their ranks and whatever 11 is out there, we have to play very well in order to get a positive result. 
 

I think a physical, ball playing midfielder, in the mould of Soumare or Bissouma should defo be a priority - look at how Arsenal cut through our midfield when we were fatigued in the second half of this seasons game at the KP. 

I would add one who's an upgrade on Mendy and Hamza if we can afford it of course but if you look at where the priorities lie and where we have ran in to trouble this season, an additional combative midfielder is less of a priority than an elite right winger and less of a priority than a Vardy successor and probably less of a priority than a left wing back like Gosens given Justin is out long term and the issues we've had with Castagne and Ricardo when played there.

[Ric Flair]

1 minute ago, Dusty said:

The way we played against ‘the big 6’ last season was very different to this, with the exception of the fa cup game against United. 
 

We sat back in our own half in a low block and only pressed them when we had a good chance of winning the ball. Compared to last season when we pressed all over the park and let them drag us around and then they utilised the space. Both pep and arteta came out at the beginning of the season and had a go at us for playing “anti football” against them. 
 

if you compare the stats of the city win this season to the 5-2 defeat last season. We had less possession and only 2 more shots when we beat them to when we lost, we just had a much more effective system. 

See this narrative we didn't play pragmatically against the top sides last season but have done this season is untrue. If you can, go and watch the games vs Man Utd, Man City and Liverpool and tell me we pressed them and tried to go at them. We were horrible and pedestrian in all of them. Trying this weird protection job but not doing it with enough conviction.

 

I agree this season we have worked on that and fully put our mast in a game plan of a low block but last season we tried to do that without actually doing it and got chinned.

[Steve Earle]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

But do the maths mate, it doesn't compute. If we have the finances then fine but this position is the least priority of the players have been linked heavily with.

 

We need a RW and striker 1st

A LWB/LB such as Gosens makes absolute sense.

 

Get those 3 in and depending on finances and departures then get an upgrade to Mendy and a 4th CB.

I’ve done the maths before, but here you go!: 

 

Probable net spend without qualifying for Europe? £10m? Ok, add £40m CL revenue to give a net spend of £50m.

 

Add-

Tarkowski or similar £12m

Soumare £20m

Gosens £25m

Edouard £15m

RM/AM/RW - loan with option

total £72m

 

Sales- 

Ghezzal £6m

Choudhury £12m

Knight £1m

Benkovivc £2m

total £21m

 

Further wages saved- 

Morgan 

Fuchs

James

Jakupovic

 

Obviously I’m guessing at prices (aren’t we all) but isn’t that close enough?

[Ric Flair]

16 minutes ago, Steve Earle said:

I’ve done the maths before, but here you go!: 

 

Probable net spend without qualifying for Europe? £10m? Ok, add £40m CL revenue to give a net spend of £50m.

 

Add-

Tarkowski or similar £12m

Soumare £20m

Gosens £25m

Edouard £15m

RM/AM/RW - loan with option

total £72m

 

Sales- 

Ghezzal £6m

Choudhury £12m

Knight £1m

Benkovivc £2m

total £21m

 

Further wages saved- 

Morgan 

Fuchs

James

Jakupovic

 

Obviously I’m guessing at prices (aren’t we all) but isn’t that close enough?

That's all quite realistic and hopefully it all happens like that but I'm nervous on the order these transfers occur. I know in real life it doesn't work out as you want it but having struggled to get the attacking players we wanted last summer and on the face of it prioritising defensive signings 1st, I don't want us to fall in to that same trap again.

 

Soumare is the sort of Praet signing in the summer of 2019 if we have some bunce left.

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, pmcla26 said:

I think the general consensus from those results their suggests all of those sides have great quality in their ranks and whatever 11 is out there, we have to play very well in order to get a positive result. 
 

I think a physical, ball playing midfielder, in the mould of Soumare or Bissouma should defo be a priority - look at how Arsenal cut through our midfield when we were fatigued in the second half of this seasons game at the KP. 

....with a three in the middle of the park it would have to be to combat a certain teams setup!!!

Tielemans. Ndidi and Soumare in the middle would be a solid setup, this would mean Maddison is dropped to the bench when everyone is fit.

[Steve Earle]

51 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

That's all quite realistic and hopefully it all happens like that but I'm nervous on the order these transfers occur. I know in real life it doesn't work out as you want it but having struggled to get the attacking players we wanted last summer and on the face of it prioritising defensive signings 1st, I don't want us to fall in to that same trap again.

 

Soumare is the sort of Praet signing in the summer of 2019 if we have some bunce left.

Someone who can play in the double pivot at the same level, or close enough, to Wilf & Youri is IMO essential, not ‘nice to have’!

[Ric Flair]

1 minute ago, Steve Earle said:

Someone who can play in the double pivot at the same level, or close enough, to Wilf & Youri is IMO essential, not ‘nice to have’!

Praet can play the Tielemans role. It's not a priority. 

[AKCJ]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

Praet can play the Tielemans role. It's not a priority. 

Have to disagree with you there. I think if Tielemans were to have been injured we would have been ****ed. Someone that plays his role is desperately needed.

 

Praet isn't like Tielemans at all IMO.

[Ric Flair]

4 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Have to disagree with you there. I think if Tielemans were to have been injured we would have been ****ed. Someone that plays his role is desperately needed.

 

Praet isn't like Tielemans at all IMO.

If you think Soumare could play the Tielemans role then you will be in for a horrible shock. He's got the sort of creative stats that Nampalys Mendy has got, if not worse.

[LestaLad]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

If you think Soumare could play the Tielemans role then you will be in for a horrible shock. He's got the sort of creative stats that Nampalys Mendy has got, if not worse.

Jesus mate, has Soumaré done your missus or something? 

[Ric Flair]

Just now, LestaLad said:

Jesus mate, has Soumaré done your missus or something? 

I rate him, just not for the role our fans think he will do. He's not a priority signing. Got a nice name though so fans have got a stonker on.

[Max Power]

Midfield diamond an option for the future? Especially with Kelechi’s emergence and two up top. Rodgers has dabbled before. 

[sacreblueits442]

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Praet can play the Tielemans role. It's not a priority. 

...Praet is more a supplement to the forwards than someone who is going to dictate our play and give us the creativity we need!!!

  His ability to go ahead of the strikers is invaluable and as he is not played in this fashion in any reasonable amount of games suggest he will be most likely to be the one released. 

  In respect of a Youri stand in, we have no one, although the indication that KDH would come in to supplement our midfield should Youri be out for any reason. 

[AKCJ]

5 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

If you think Soumare could play the Tielemans role then you will be in for a horrible shock. He's got the sort of creative stats that Nampalys Mendy has got, if not worse.

 

We need a player that can take the ball off the defence and progress the ball through the midfield like Tielemans does. If he's injured we're ****ed. Nobody else in the side does it.

 

Worth pointing out that Tielemans is pretty much one of a kind. At least he is in terms of footballers that would join us so we're not going to be able to buy someone that can do everything Tielemans can do (especially not one that is happy to sit on the bench).

 

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I rate him, just not for the role our fans think he will do. He's not a priority signing. Got a nice name though so fans have got a stonker on.

 That's rich.

[messerschmitt]

3 hours ago, Steve Earle said:

I respectfully disagree with this and with @Ric Flair post to which you're replying FB. If we're going to play CL games next season, compete in the PL, and give both domestic cups a go, we're going to need two top class payers for each position, and players who are flexible enough to cover more than one position too, so that we can change formations within games without making substitutions. For that (rather long-winded) reason, we need a LWB/LB and cover for Youri (but who's more physical, less technical) as much as any of the more talked about positions.

 

As I've said before, IF (capital letters IF!) we gat CL football I expect five signings (and some creative book-balancing).

I was going to reply but you basically said it. People are getting hung up over our best or starting 11, you don't have that any more, you look at Man city, who are their best 11, they don't have a best 11, they have maybe 18 players who could start and you couldn't say they weaken the team.

You don't want to have 11 players who are better than the rest because how often would they

a. all be available

b. you cant play every game you need a rest.

However I do think we are working towards exactly what you say.

[Stadt]

Soumare's got the profile of a creative player but doesn't set up goals and his defensive stats are underwhelming. I've not seen much of him admittedly but to me he seems like he'd be a lanky Mendy - which isn't what we need.

 

[Babylon]

5 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Soumare's got the profile of a creative player but doesn't set up goals and his defensive stats are underwhelming. I've not seen much of him admittedly but to me he seems like he'd be a lanky Mendy - which isn't what we need.

 

Big difference is progressive passes, progressive carries and dribbles. We're slow as fook getting forward, be nice to have someone who can get it forward and break the lines in the middle. 

Edited 6 May 2021 by Babylon

[Micky]

7 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Big difference is progressive passes, progressive carries and dribbles. We're slow as fook getting forward, be nice to have someone who can get it forward and break the lines in the middle. 

You also have to take into account that he is playing for a team that sit top of the league. I'm not sure if it is the case but do Lille dominate possession in most of their games?

[An Sionnach]

9 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Big difference is progressive passes, progressive carries and dribbles. We're slow as fook getting forward, be nice to have someone who can get it forward and break the lines in the middle. 

That's where Chelsea look to Mason Mount . He is no creative genius but he brings it out of defense and runs at the opposition.  He works his butt off yet rarely gets the kudos the big money signings get.