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From what I've seen of Ziyech so far in the premier league, it would seem our scouting team were right to not go in heavily on him. Chelsea will try recouping as much as they can from him, not sold on either player either way

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Ziyech maybe but not for 40 and Odoi christ no. 

 

Tbh even Ziyech is the wrong "type" of wide player. If we're going to play 433 we need wide forwards, quick players who can contribute goals. Basically another Barnes. 

 

That or we need to double down on 352, fully commit, sign Gosens instead and work on being the best goal scoring 352 we can be, a la Atalanta. 

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28 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Ziyech maybe but not for 40 and Odoi christ no. 

 

Tbh even Ziyech is the wrong "type" of wide player. If we're going to play 433 we need wide forwards, quick players who can contribute goals. Basically another Barnes. 

 

That or we need to double down on 352, fully commit, sign Gosens instead and work on being the best goal scoring 352 we can be, a la Atalanta. 

I don't ever see us deploying the equivalent of Barnes on the other wing and us play an attacking midfielder like Maddison. If he does they'll have to be some sort of beast who is also very good at defending and tucking in. That said, we seemed to want to break our transfer record on Trincao who defensively is decent but not the mould of player Brendan seems to be looking for.

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9 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I don't ever see us deploying the equivalent of Barnes on the other wing and us play an attacking midfielder like Maddison. If he does they'll have to be some sort of beast who is also very good at defending and tucking in. That said, we seemed to want to break our transfer record on Trincao who defensively is decent but not the mould of player Brendan seems to be looking for.

 

I genuinely think we're at our best when we play 433 with Madders deeper, contributing from more centrally. Rodgers was really quite proud last year of Madders improvement in his defensive game, picking up tackles and interceptions.

 

For me, August to late November last season is still some of the best football I've seen us play and still what "plan A" should be. I look at everything we've done since, in particular 352 and 4231 and I see changes made for necessity more than anything else. 

 

That said, if we really are after Soumare, Gosens and one of Toney/French Eddie then I think we probably are gearing up to stay more 352 long term. 

 

I've railed against this with @Mark all season because the way we deploy it is awful, particularly against teams that try to surrender the advantage to us and soak up pressure. We try to play the same brand of patient building we do in a 4231 and it doesn't work, 352 is just a bad shape for control and I will absolutely die on that hill.

 

But it doesn't mean it has to be a bad shape for attacking and scoring goals and Gasperini has proven that repeatedly. So stealing more of his players shows a willingness to keep learning that and trending in that direction which, I'll be honest, I don't hate. 

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1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

I've railed against this with @Mark all season because the way we deploy it is awful, particularly against teams that try to surrender the advantage to us and soak up pressure. We try to play the same brand of patient building we do in a 4231 and it doesn't work, 352 is just a bad shape for control and I will absolutely die on that hill.

 

But it doesn't mean it has to be a bad shape for attacking and scoring goals and Gasperini has proven that repeatedly. So stealing more of his players shows a willingness to keep learning that and trending in that direction which, I'll be honest, I don't hate. 

It'll never work because we'll still be relying on defenders to provide width and all wing play =  the ball just getting passed inside to Tielemans all match as they are defenders. We become one dimensional. It hasn't benefitted any attacking player apart from Iheanacho. I don't remember Barnes having a good game in a back five either as he has to play more inside. It's the main reason I hope we don't sign Gosens, as good as he may be it just means we're planning for a back five from the off.

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1 hour ago, snoopy87 said:

From what I've seen of Ziyech so far in the premier league, it would seem our scouting team were right to not go in heavily on him. Chelsea will try recouping as much as they can from him, not sold on either player either way

Having watch a fair amount of Chelsea games I'm really glad Ziyech turned us down, he offers the odd flash but minute for minute, not just watching highlights he's disappointing, not that much better than Gray. In fact I can't think of a wide player we've been linked with who's impressed.

Stephen Bergwijn, tottenham, Anderson West Ham, Jahanbakhsh Brighton.

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I also think as a fan base we inevitably yearn for those wide players of Mahrez's time here, the blood and thunder days of the title win, but I dare say the game has changed in response to that exact profile, especially for Leicester as we have done this before.

 

Feel the 352 is here to stay and see the logic in it, we just need to grow into it more.

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We can't be wedded to one formation, be that 4-2-3-1 or 3-5-2 (or as I see it, 3-4-1-2), without the tactical flexibility this year, we would have slipped down the table.

 

We have the same issue with both formations; we don't have the right players to provide width and creativity;

 

4-2-3-1, we simply don't have the quality at RW or the depth at LW, one injury, and we have had to change formation

 

3-4-1-2, we don't have a natural left-footed attacking player. Atalanta have shown how attacking this can be done right, currently top scorers in Serie A with 79 goals, top scorers last season with 98.

 

In my view, if we want to play 4-2-3-1, we need two wide players to add depth, a quality RW, and I think Gosen to cover the left if need, as I think he is good enough to play that role and can cover LB.

 

For 3-4-1-2, we need an LM/LWB who can provide power, pace and creativity wide. Once again, Gosen fits the bill.

 

So for me, Gosen could be a great addition to the squad and help us in both formations, then we need the difficult to find RW. 

 

We also need a Forward who can play on their own in the 4-2-3-1 or as a part in 3-4-1-2. If they can play wide as well, that's a bonus.

 

Another CM who could play 10,8,6 roles would be beneficial. 

 

We also have Sowah and KDH to add to the squad.

Edited by coolhandfox
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1 hour ago, Mark said:

It'll never work because we'll still be relying on defenders to provide width and all wing play =  the ball just getting passed inside to Tielemans all match as they are defenders. We become one dimensional. It hasn't benefitted any attacking player apart from Iheanacho. I don't remember Barnes having a good game in a back five either as he has to play more inside. It's the main reason I hope we don't sign Gosens, as good as he may be it just means we're planning for a back five from the off.

Dunno about that, fifth last year ( and should have been third) , semi -final of one cup, third this year and final of the other cup . Yes , always room for improvement , but we have had much worse . We have been a match for both C.L. finalists this season as well. We leave out Soyuncu or Fofana and get beaten , many on here would go apeshit.

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1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

I genuinely think we're at our best when we play 433 with Madders deeper, contributing from more centrally. Rodgers was really quite proud last year of Madders improvement in his defensive game, picking up tackles and interceptions.

 

For me, August to late November last season is still some of the best football I've seen us play and still what "plan A" should be. I look at everything we've done since, in particular 352 and 4231 and I see changes made for necessity more than anything else. 

 

That said, if we really are after Soumare, Gosens and one of Toney/French Eddie then I think we probably are gearing up to stay more 352 long term. 

 

I've railed against this with @Mark all season because the way we deploy it is awful, particularly against teams that try to surrender the advantage to us and soak up pressure. We try to play the same brand of patient building we do in a 4231 and it doesn't work, 352 is just a bad shape for control and I will absolutely die on that hill.

 

But it doesn't mean it has to be a bad shape for attacking and scoring goals and Gasperini has proven that repeatedly. So stealing more of his players shows a willingness to keep learning that and trending in that direction which, I'll be honest, I don't hate. 

We can’t be that awful at 352 using it for half the season and being where we are. 

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1 hour ago, Mark said:

It'll never work because we'll still be relying on defenders to provide width and all wing play =  the ball just getting passed inside to Tielemans all match as they are defenders. We become one dimensional. It hasn't benefitted any attacking player apart from Iheanacho. I don't remember Barnes having a good game in a back five either as he has to play more inside. It's the main reason I hope we don't sign Gosens, as good as he may be it just means we're planning for a back five from the off.

How have you managed to edit your post without it declaring that it's been edited? 

 

Or did I just imagine you saying that our last two seasons have been "ruined" by Rodgers playing 5 at the back?!

Edited by Foxy_Bear
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12 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

Or did I just imagine you saying that our last two seasons have been "ruined" by Rodgers playing 5 at the back?!

I did say that but on reflection probably best to wait and see. When I said ruined I just mean by exiting the top 4 in the same way as in both seasons we have ended with a back five and losing what got us in that position. Obviously its been a great season overall, I just hoped we'd learnt from last season.

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Faivre seems to fit the bill and would be cheap enough. His stats are fairly average but promising considering he plays with unremarkable players at Brest.

 

I filtered through who scored to find RWs who have played at least 10 games by goals p90 then looked through FBref  at their stats.

 

1603039636_Screenshot2021-05-07at11_34_43.thumb.png.5b9b638e8fed8d62ff64e7f28e9f47b1.png

782662017_Screenshot2021-05-07at11_35_06.thumb.png.926bd5478fda03544e37685f018fb485.png

1562628540_Screenshot2021-05-07at11_36_40.thumb.png.c79d95a2d3e196cfec68dde8bead6c3f.png1625263309_Screenshot2021-05-07at11_50_10.thumb.png.d00edcaf8984f397e4fda6b58f2fea4a.png

Screenshot 2021-05-07 at 11.45.00.png

Edited by Stadt
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I wouldn’t be surprised if we go for someone who can play at RW/CAM, giving us that flexibility of playing them in a 3-4-1-2 or  4-2-3-1. 
 

Some people still aren’t keen on 3-4-1-2, but to say it will never work is a ludicrous statement. When having the right personnel, we have proven it works over the past month, it seems some people like to ignore the fact, that we are unbeaten when Fofana, Evans & Soyuncu have played together. Some will then probably say “Well those wins only came against Sheff Utd, West Brom & Crystal Palace”; however those are the types of teams we have struggled to breakdown in the past, in those three games we smashed in ten goals and kept two clean sheets. The West Brom game proved how effective playing with wing-backs can be, Castagne was rightfully MOTM that game.

 

Going back more on topic and going all @Ric Flair

 

Madueke, Faivre, Olise and Damsgaard are the four players we should be looking at.

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414622061_Screenshot2021-05-07at11_46_00.thumb.png.2feda309cc259ee18519c18de74ef010.png

 

186273315_Screenshot2021-05-07at11_45_36.thumb.png.b65b6b7663ba01a77a3560aa24ac13a8.png

421641174_Screenshot2021-05-07at11_48_16.thumb.png.23774c55519fe3633bbe9d7a5886cb49.png

 

These are some of the more interesting and semi realistic options. Given that Barnes isn't overly creative I think we need a more creative type on the left than an outright goalscorer. A left footer brings a bit more balance to our side too.

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26 minutes ago, Mark said:

I did say that but on reflection probably best to wait and see. When I said ruined I just mean by exiting the top 4 in the same way as in both seasons we have ended with a back five and losing what got us in that position. Obviously its been a great season overall, I just hoped we'd learnt from last season.

But it's not like we have only recently switched to 5 at the back lately which has saw our form slip. We've played this formation sporadically throughout the entire season, getting some cracking results in part because of it, Man City, Arsenal, Man Utd....

 

Similarly, playing 4 at the back has saw some poor results. Villa, Zorya, Everton, Leeds off the top of my head. 

 

Both have their uses but it's clear to see that for each system to be effective, you need players in that particular team who are effective in those roles. Playing four at the back without any decent wingers is tough, which is part of the reason we've persisted with wingbacks. That and the fact that as our squad currently stands... playing 3412 fits our strongest players and plays to their strengths. I.e, someone up top with Nacho and accommodating our 3 CBs.

Edited by Foxy_Bear
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2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I genuinely think we're at our best when we play 433 with Madders deeper, contributing from more centrally. Rodgers was really quite proud last year of Madders improvement in his defensive game, picking up tackles and interceptions.

 

For me, August to late November last season is still some of the best football I've seen us play and still what "plan A" should be. I look at everything we've done since, in particular 352 and 4231 and I see changes made for necessity more than anything else. 

 

That said, if we really are after Soumare, Gosens and one of Toney/French Eddie then I think we probably are gearing up to stay more 352 long term. 

 

I've railed against this with @Mark all season because the way we deploy it is awful, particularly against teams that try to surrender the advantage to us and soak up pressure. We try to play the same brand of patient building we do in a 4231 and it doesn't work, 352 is just a bad shape for control and I will absolutely die on that hill.

 

But it doesn't mean it has to be a bad shape for attacking and scoring goals and Gasperini has proven that repeatedly. So stealing more of his players shows a willingness to keep learning that and trending in that direction which, I'll be honest, I don't hate. 

I fully agree, 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 whatever you want to call it has seen our best football and often best run of results. The only point of note I'll make is thst the tweaks to the system in different years has bought out the better game in Tielemans and Maddison. 

 

You say that Maddison was at his best in 2019/20 but Tielemans was poor by his standards and yet this season with Tielemans now playing deeper, he has been phenomenal and Maddison has pushed up to almost play off Vardy and I thought from mid December to February both he and Barnes were electric. Literally scored the majority of our goals and often provided them too with Tielemans.

 

Now perhaps all that was only possible with a defensive Albrighton on the right and for us to have the equivalent of Barnes out on the right then either Maddison drops deeper or he is replaced by Soumare in such games. I don't know the answer to that but I think that's where we'll be going. The signing of Gosens muddies the waters though. I want him but if that means 3-4-1-2 then Barnes and Maddison are curtailed in their best roles here and that's a disgrace.

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41 minutes ago, kingfox said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if we go for someone who can play at RW/CAM, giving us that flexibility of playing them in a 3-4-1-2 or  4-2-3-1. 
 

Some people still aren’t keen on 3-4-1-2, but to say it will never work is a ludicrous statement. When having the right personnel, we have proven it works over the past month, it seems some people like to ignore the fact, that we are unbeaten when Fofana, Evans & Soyuncu have played together. Some will then probably say “Well those wins only came against Sheff Utd, West Brom & Crystal Palace”; however those are the types of teams we have struggled to breakdown in the past, in those three games we smashed in ten goals and kept two clean sheets. The West Brom game proved how effective playing with wing-backs can be, Castagne was rightfully MOTM that game.

 

Going back more on topic and going all @Ric Flair

 

Madueke, Faivre, Olise and Damsgaard are the four players we should be looking at.

Have a butchers at Ludovic Blas. He's the nuts

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1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I fully agree, 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 whatever you want to call it has seen our best football and often best run of results. The only point of note I'll make is thst the tweaks to the system in different years has bought out the better game in Tielemans and Maddison. 

 

You say that Maddison was at his best in 2019/20 but Tielemans was poor by his standards and yet this season with Tielemans now playing deeper, he has been phenomenal and Maddison has pushed up to almost play off Vardy and I thought from mid December to February both he and Barnes were electric. Literally scored the majority of our goals and often provided them too with Tielemans.

 

Now perhaps all that was only possible with a defensive Albrighton on the right and for us to have the equivalent of Barnes out on the right then either Maddison drops deeper or he is replaced by Soumare in such games. I don't know the answer to that but I think that's where we'll be going. The signing of Gosens muddies the waters though. I want him but if that means 3-4-1-2 then Barnes and Maddison are curtailed in their best roles here and that's a disgrace.

I think it’s quite evident that from Rodgers time being here, he likes a 3 pronged attack (whether that be two strikers and a number 10 in a 3412, or a lone striker and two wide men flanking in a 433, or in a 4231 - the 3 main attackers seem to be Maddison, Barnes and a striker) so it definitely makes sense us going for a left footed right winger with high work rate and technical ability to give us that balance and versatility to play in the different systems that Rodgers employs. 

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2 hours ago, pmcla26 said:

We can’t be that awful at 352 using it for half the season and being where we are. 


 

I have to admit, some of the wins these season feel more like we ground out the win more than the sweeping opponents aside that we had last season..

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4 minutes ago, MPH said:


 

I have to admit, some of the wins these season feel more like we ground out the win more than the sweeping opponents aside that we had last season..

True, but then we have also swept teams aside at times this season, and we’ve had to play games at lower intensity due to fatigue from fixture congestion or over reliance on players due to injuries. 
 

Further to that, every good side has that nous in grinding out results. How many games last season were there where Liverpool only just got past teams due to a dodgy VAR decision or a scrappy goal, but then win 5-0 against someone else the next week. 
 

I appreciate you have to look at the warning signs if a tactic doesn’t seem to be bringing the best out of our players, but all things considered, I think we’ve performed magnificently this campaign, whether that be 3 at the back or 4 at the back.

 

We’ve also had some poor games playing with a back 4, so I don’t think the systems are to blame. 

Edited by pmcla26
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Rome wasn’t built in a day! It’s easy to forget we’re still in the early phases of our development. 


If we sign Gosens, Soumare & Edouard without selling any key players, then we’ve had a great window. Anything else is a bonus.

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Any chance we could go 3-4-3 at times like Chelsea under Conte and therefore sign Gosens and an inverted right-winger/inside forward?

 

It would mean sacrificing a number 10 and one of Vardy or Iheanacho but it could be a way of coping with some of the injuries we've had.

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