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Agree with most of this except:

 

4 hours ago, EnderbyFox said:

 

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  • Jaime's whole character arc over the past few seasons has been a waste of time then?

 

 

I believe GRRM has stated that Jaime's character is supposed to challenge whether redemption arcs are truly possible in all cases. Can a man who has done such unspeakably evil things as Jaime has over the years truly be redeemed? And would he so easily discard the person he carried out most that evil for?

 

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On 06/05/2019 at 14:40, The Bear said:

Anyone who doesn't understand the NK's story hasn't been paying attention. They ended it swiftly I agree, but they had to really. And they did it about as satisfyingly as possible given their constraints this season. 

 

I really liked this week's episode. Much more than last week's battle. Back to what makes the show good, which is character driven episodes. 

What’s Bron going to do next week then?

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1 hour ago, Finnaldo said:

Agree with most of this except:

 

 

 

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I believe GRRM has stated that Jaime's character is supposed to challenge whether redemption arcs are truly possible in all cases. Can a man who has done such unspeakably evil things as Jaime has over the years truly be redeemed? And would he so easily discard the person he carried out most that evil for?

 

 

Same case for Theon though isnt it?

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That episode was mental, favourite ep apart from Battle of the Bastards. Redeemed from what was an average season imo. People expecting a Hollywood ending are watching the wrong series.

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48 minutes ago, ren said:

That episode was mental, favourite ep apart from Battle of the Bastards. Redeemed from what was an average season imo. People expecting a Hollywood ending are watching the wrong series.

Can't argue with any of that, very dark episode which is what GOT is all about.

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It was a brilliant episode up until...

 

...there was a huge shift at the point where Dany gave two fingers to the bells and that was very, very jarring imo.  Then we had Euron which further took me out of the episode, followed by the fan fuelled showdown between the Hound and the Mountain.  It was all very Hollywood by this point.  We have Arya running around doing very little when she could have done so much more.  And then we have Jaime, who has taken a couple of really deep sword blows by this point having run a fair way into the keep to find himself with Cersei awaiting impending doom as the ceiling caves in.  Reminded me of the ending to Rogue One, hug and hope.  Again, all very Hollywood.

 

So, all in all, fantastic first half, shame about the second.  

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That was fantastic IMO. Probably my favourite episode for a good long while, and showdowns I've been looking forward to all season. 

Baffling that some people didn't like it. I do agree with the "speed" of Dany going bonkers though. But it has been on the cards for a while now. She's always had it in her.

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25 minutes ago, The Bear said:

That was fantastic IMO. Probably my favourite episode for a good long while, and showdowns I've been looking forward to all season. 

Baffling that some people didn't like it. I do agree with the "speed" of Dany going bonkers though. But it has been on the cards for a while now. She's always had it in her.

I don’t see how it’s baffling to not like that episode. Some of us would prefer a higher standard of writing tbh 

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Really enjoyed that, We have seen Dany go all dark before, when she had the witch burned alive with her and her dead hubby and having lost those that kept her tethered to reality, with Jorah and Missandei gone, she went to a very dark place indeed.

 

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1 hour ago, The Bear said:

That was fantastic IMO. Probably my favourite episode for a good long while, and showdowns I've been looking forward to all season. 

Baffling that some people didn't like it. I do agree with the "speed" of Dany going bonkers though. But it has been on the cards for a while now. She's always had it in her.

The Mad King's daughter turning mad once aggravated, who'd have thought ey.

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If you take a moment to step back and think, take the wow factor of the CGI effects out of the equation

(and the god like invincible powers that Drogon now possesses one episode later)

, and consider the actions of the characters midway through the episode, it turned into an absolute mess. 

 

Honestly.  A mess.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

If you take a moment to step back and think, take the wow factor of the CGI effects out of the equation

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(and the god like invincible powers that Drogon now possesses one episode later)

, and consider the actions of the characters midway through the episode, it turned into an absolute mess. 

 

Honestly.  A mess.

 

 

Nah,

she said fear to Jon, she meant fear, this was planned prior to the start of the fight, the bells going off just made her determined to see things done her way, her and Greyworm were never going to accept any surrender. she just decided to cut out the middleman and erase the whole city and the throne.

Edited by ithuriel
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Did you see the look Greyworm gave Jon, think they’ll be having a little tete et tete next week!

 

Anyway got to say I enjoyed it, I think the writers were never going to please everyone and I’ll admit is has some flaws but I can’t wait to see how it ends. 

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11 minutes ago, ithuriel said:

Nah,

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she said fear to Jon, she meant fear, this was planned prior to the start of the fight, the bells going off just made her determined to see things done her way, her and Greyworm were never going to accept any surrender. she just decided to cut out the middleman and erase the whole city and the throne.

 

 

You may be right, it's plausible to think that this is what the writer's intended.  It's out of character though, not just for Dany but for many of the other characters.  The Unsullied are meant to be disciplined.  There was nothing disciplined about their approach once the bells rang.  It was a free-for-all.  Even Jon's Northmen did what the hell they wanted.  This all came after the Dothraki, seemingly obliterated in episode 3, took apart the soldiers inside the walls.  



 

But this is just one aspect of many that brought the episode down.  It was set up brilliantly up until that moment (excusing an OTT Drogon that can obliterate anything in its path, carve up the Iron Fleet, breathe fire so fierce it can not only burn but disintegrate stone buildings and also take out Varys with laser precision), the tension was great, only for it to come crashing down at the pivotal moment.  She'd done the Mad Queen part, she'd won, just go for the Keep and finish it.  But no, we destroy the whole city first - why?

 

Then we have Euron wanting to kill Jaime - why?  He practically does, but then Jaime goes on another famous GoT run of Kings Landing having been gutted twice in the process.

 

Qyburn - I laughed when he was manhandled down the stairs.  Should I have laughed?  I have no idea.

 

The Mountain and The Hound - why?  What is the motivation there for wanting him dead?  Tell you what, let's take The Hound (my fav character) stab his brother in the neck a few times and then go for an eye, before smashing him through a wall into a sea of fire - why?  

 

Random balls of wildfire blowing off here and there - why? 

 

Arya acting all assassin but runs around a lot doing nothing but finds a horse and rides away - why?

 

Credit where it is due, they set up the episode really, really well but then the execution in the second half was lazy.  Take Cersei as an example, how many lines has she said all season?  Shocking.  

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32 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

 

 

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You may be right, it's plausible to think that this is what the writer's intended.  It's out of character though, not just for Dany but for many of the other characters.  The Unsullied are meant to be disciplined.  There was nothing disciplined about their approach once the bells rang.  It was a free-for-all.  Even Jon's Northmen did what the hell they wanted.  This all came after the Dothraki, seemingly obliterated in episode 3, took apart the soldiers inside the walls.  

 


 

But this is just one aspect of many that brought the episode down.  It was set up brilliantly up until that moment (excusing an OTT Drogon that can obliterate anything in its path, carve up the Iron Fleet, breathe fire so fierce it can not only burn but disintegrate stone buildings and also take out Varys with laser precision), the tension was great, only for it to come crashing down at the pivotal moment.  She'd done the Mad Queen part, she'd won, just go for the Keep and finish it.  But no, we destroy the whole city first - why?

 

Then we have Euron wanting to kill Jaime - why?  He practically does, but then Jaime goes on another famous GoT run of Kings Landing having been gutted twice in the process.

 

Qyburn - I laughed when he was manhandled down the stairs.  Should I have laughed?  I have no idea.

 

The Mountain and The Hound - why?  What is the motivation there for wanting him dead?  Tell you what, let's take The Hound (my fav character) stab his brother in the neck a few times and then go for an eye, before smashing him through a wall into a sea of fire - why?  

 

Random balls of wildfire blowing off here and there - why? 

 

Arya acting all assassin but runs around a lot doing nothing but finds a horse and rides away - why?

 

 

 

Credit where it is due, they set up the episode really, really well but then the execution in the second half was lazy.  Take Cersei as an example, how many lines has she said all season?  Shocking.  

The mountain is the reason for the hound's burnt face, from their childhood together. The whole Hound character is literally in place for the whole series to have revenge on his brother, ironically it happens in fire which is his fear because of his childhood. After he achieves his revenge he has no purpose to live.

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That was great, pity that the whole point was to see who sat on the iron throne , which is now gone under a pile of rubble. Still think Tyrion will be the final king of tits and wine, and Westeros, and decree a mass piss up and orgy.

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If there hadn’t been 8 years of build up that would have been amazing. The problem is so much of what happened was either contradictory to or made meaningless what has happened before.

 

 

 


 

Sonething needed to trigger Dany to go mad. This goes back to last week she saw Cersei execute her loyal and loved companion and did nothing, her dragon was killed, she did nothing, her fleet were destroyed and her allies captured or killed she still didn’t burn KL. KL surrenders, the bastards, kill them all. If I had been writing this episode I would have had Cersei still have Missandei hostage or in a shocking plot twist the golden company have brought Dario with them and when Dany lands on the red keep to get Cersei to surrender the mountain brings out Dario or Missandei and throws them out the window (nice callback) Dany and Drogon tried to save them and that sends Dany over the edge. 

 

Speaking of burning them all, last week Dany was overpowered by the iron fleet and ran away, this week she destroyed them all and the numerous other defences without breaking a sweat. Why not do that when they are destroying your fleet with all your favourite people on the ships. Surely an ally with some ships and grudge with Euron could have surprised them while they were watching the skies for Drogon. Yara and the iron islanders along with the Dornish army (they randomly mentioned Dorne had declared for Dany last week) catch Euron unaware and disable the fleet allowing Dany to swoop in.

 

So they have been pushing the mad queen angle ok she flipped we don’t know why, she hates bells, the unsullied and the Dothraki are her loyal allies fair enough but why did all the northmen get involved with the killing and raping? Jon was trying to get them to stop, but they didn’t then, a good few deaths later he tells them to withdraw and they all trot off.

 

Arya, what was the point of her entire arc if 8 years of training and resentment is undone by 1 sentence from the hound? I would expect her to kill or try and kill Dany next week maybe wearing Jon’s face but with these writers she probably just heads back to Gensru and we get 90 minutes of domestic bliss in the North.

 

Jamie, was shagging Brienne that bad? He was safe and had found “redemption” then he betrayed the overpowered dragon queen to be with the women who had repeatedly cheated on him and got his other 3 kids killed and sent a sell sword to kill him. It’s not like he had just found out she was pregnant he knew before he left.

 

Finally what has been the point of this whole season, the NK, Bran, Even Jon’s lineage his claim to the throne being better than Dany’s is irrelevant if he has to kill her.

 

Davos, what was he doing on the frontline, he has repeatedly said he can’t fight, it’s like each episode is written by different people who deliberately avoid talking to each other about what they are doing.

 

Cersei died in such an odd way.  Arya, Greyworm, Tyrion, Jamie, Jon, Dany Ellaria Sand (is she still alive in the cells?) so many people with just cause to kill her none of them do. She doesn’t go out plotting and scheming to the end she dies crying in Jamie’s arms.

 

Even Cleganebowl felt tacked on and completely pointless.

 
 

 

 

 

Edited by Captain...
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The last two scenes should have been switched,  Arya and the horse really didnt need much time at all......Cersei and Jamie deserved much much more, no issue with how it panned out but just in an episode of anarchy maybe have the finale of that scene to play out almost in super slow mo along with the light of the seven music.....would have been a fitting end!

 

 

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RIP Euron Greyjoy.

A man who died as he lived: Showing up at a convenient time and place out of nowhere, doing whatever the plot needed him to at that moment with no real motivation for any of it. (Apart from wanting to bonk the queen and/or telling people he’s already bonked the queen, of course)

 

 

Edited by RoboFox
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1 hour ago, Captain... said:

If there hadn’t been 8 years of build up that would have been amazing. The problem is so much of what happened was either contradictory to or made meaningless what has happened before.

 

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Sonething needed to trigger Dany to go mad. This goes back to last week she saw Cersei execute her loyal and loved companion and did nothing, her dragon was killed, she did nothing, her fleet were destroyed and her allies captured or killed she still didn’t burn KL. KL surrenders, the bastards, kill them all. If I had been writing this episode I would have had Cersei still have Missandei hostage or in a shocking plot twist the golden company have brought Dario with them and when Dany lands on the red keep to get Cersei to surrender the mountain brings out Dario or Missandei and throws them out the window (nice callback) Dany and Drogon tried to save them and that sends Dany over the edge. 

 

Speaking of burning them all, last week Dany was overpowered by the iron fleet and ran away, this week she destroyed them all and the numerous other defences without breaking a sweat. Why not do that when they are destroying your fleet with all your favourite people on the ships. Surely an ally with some ships and grudge with Euron could have surprised them while they were watching the skies for Drogon. Yara and the iron islanders along with the Dornish army (they randomly mentioned Dorne had declared for Dany last week) catch Euron unaware and disable the fleet allowing Dany to swoop in.

 

So they have been pushing the mad queen angle ok she flipped we don’t know why, she hates bells, the unsullied and the Dothraki are her loyal allies fair enough but why did all the northmen get involved with the killing and raping? Jon was trying to get them to stop, but they didn’t then, a good few deaths later he tells them to withdraw and they all trot off.

 

Arya, what was the point of her entire arc if 8 years of training and resentment is undone by 1 sentence from the hound? I would expect her to kill or try and kill Dany next week maybe wearing Jon’s face but with these writers she probably just heads back to Gensru and we get 90 minutes of domestic bliss in the North.

 

Jamie, was shagging Brienne that bad? He was safe and had found “redemption” then he betrayed the overpowered dragon queen to be with the women who had repeatedly cheated on him and got his other 3 kids killed and sent a sell sword to kill him. It’s not like he had just found out she was pregnant he knew before he left.

 

Finally what has been the point of this whole season, the NK, Bran, Even Jon’s lineage his claim to the throne being better than Dany’s is irrelevant if he has to kill her.

 

Davos, what was he doing on the frontline, he has repeatedly said he can’t fight, it’s like each episode is written by different people who deliberately avoid talking to each other about what they are doing.

 

Cersei died in such an odd way.  Arya, Greyworm, Tyrion, Jamie, Jon, Dany Ellaria Sand (is she still alive in the cells?) so many people with just cause to kill her none of them do. She doesn’t go out plotting and scheming to the end she dies crying in Jamie’s arms.

 

Even Cleganebowl felt tacked on and completely pointless.

 
 

 

 

 

 

I completely agree.  

 

The series has degenerated into a CGI infested mess in comparison with its earlier seasons.

 

Either people are blinkered to it and accept it for what it is or take great annoyance in what it has become.

 

I fall into the second half.

 

The writers are to blame - Weiss and Benioff.  Further delving into those two shows they've penned in a further "original trilogy" to the Star Wars franchise and are writing that.  God help us.  Johnson has half wrecked it, these two will demolish it.  Dracarys.  lol

 

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The acting, the spectacle, visuals, soundtrack, production, set pieces - pretty much everything are close to a 10 this season.

 

The writing though, has to come in at like a 4, maybe 5. It just hasn’t worked out as I’d hoped it would. Rushed, lazy, weird. And sadly it’s brought the season down with it.

 

I might change my mind after the finale, or maybe after I’ve had time to reflect on this season. But meh

 

 

I’ve given them a lot of slack this season but Dany’s dramatic switch up ultimately just didn’t feel earned. I love this as the end point of her arc, her going nuts is great, but the way they’ve gotten to this point just feels wrong, not believable and really poorly paced. They’ve firmly lost me as one of their apologists

lol 

 

There is still so much to love about that episode and this season, which is the weird thing. Frustrating in a fair few ways.

Edited by Goober
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Couple of things about Dany's descent into full Mad Queen mode:

 

Her father seemed to have a functioning realm while he had advisors and adminstrators that curbed his worst excesses (Tywin being top of the list). I guess it's not really suprising that given Dany has lost so many of the lodestones to keep her grounded, that the red mist so inherent to Targaryens has taken over.

 

Additionally, no one says that Aegon the Conqueror or Tywin Lannister were terrible leaders, even when the former burned half of Westeros to conquer it and the latter exterminated two noble houses without any kind of mercy when he was younger than Dany is now.

 

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4 hours ago, Goober said:

The acting, the spectacle, visuals, soundtrack, production, set pieces - pretty much everything are close to a 10 this season.

 

The writing though, has to come in at like a 4, maybe 5. It just hasn’t worked out as I’d hoped it would. Rushed, lazy, weird. And sadly it’s brought the season down with it.

 

I might change my mind after the finale, or maybe after I’ve had time to reflect on this season. But meh

 

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I’ve given them a lot of slack this season but Dany’s dramatic switch up ultimately just didn’t feel earned. I love this as the end point of her arc, her going nuts is great, but the way they’ve gotten to this point just feels wrong, not believable and really poorly paced. They’ve firmly lost me as one of their apologists

lol 

 

There is still so much to love about that episode and this season, which is the weird thing. Frustrating in a fair few ways.

I’ve been thinking about Dany and her arc. Whilst at Winterfell or while battling the NK something should have happened that triggered all this. Something Bran or the NK did unlocks the crazy. Let’s say Dany and Drogon are falling out the sky and Bran wargs into Drogon and Dany by proxy due to their psychic bond and through Bran and the three eyed raven Dany gets flashbacks to her family in Westeros, the good the bad and the mad. Or Dany asks Bran to show her what happened and we get a big flashback episode as Bran shows her what drove her brother mad and that then sends her over the edge. This would give the whole 3ER a much greater baring on the plot. Maybe the vision ends with a young Robert Baratheon being hailed in the streets of KL as the saviour. The soldiers drop the swords in surrender and the people cheer their new king and the bells ring out. 



 

When it happens again it triggers the crazy in Dany and she makes them all burn.

 

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Surely all lined up for Starks vs Daenerys lot in the final episode? 

 

A bad GoT season is still better than the best season of most other shows. Still enjoying it with a feeling of what might have been with the disappointing development of certain subplots.

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