Rotherham & other City/Town child abuse scandals

[Finnegan]

It's those bloody North Koreans and Mongolians!

God damn Mongorians.

[Dr The Singh]

I don't know enough about the Leicester or Birmingham cases to tell whether Dr The Singh's account is balanced and accurate.

 

I do know that vigilante action often leads to innocent people getting hurt or worse - remember the Taufiq family burned to death in Leicester by Antoin Akpom's mates taking the law into their own hands? Some children were hurt and terrified by the vigilante raid on that Leicester restaurant, weren't they? Likewise, there have been instances of anti-paedophile vigilantes attacking or even killing people wrongly suspected of being paedophiles, who were actually quite innocent and just happened to be loners or a bit odd.

 

I'm not saying that I have no sympathy for the instinct to protect your own, if the authorities do nothing to protect them. I do have sympathy. I'm sure that I'd do the same myself if I found myself in that situation. But making sure the police and other authorities do their job of upholding the law has to be the absolute priority....along with some serious research to properly understand why people indulge in such depravity.

We live in a nation where we shouldn't have to take law into our own hands, and we must do our upmost to ensure that happens.  

 

I know people were injured from the restuarant smash up, more trauma then anything else, but I would have preferred it, if that didn't happen at all!!!

 

It's a emotional subject, the authorities and police have to ensure there on top of things, or as you said, vigilantist action could lead to much worse!!

[James.]

 Likewise, there have been instances of anti-paedophile vigilantes attacking or even killing people wrongly suspected of being paedophiles, who were actually quite innocent and just happened to be loners or a bit odd.

 

 

Or pediatricians - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm

[MooseBreath]

I'm not shocked that there should be instances of such depravity, but the scale and organised nature of it and the fact that it's taken so long for anything significant to be done about it really is shocking.

An estimated 1400 kids?!? It also sounds as if that may be an under-estimate, as there may be under-reporting by certain groups.... and the entire population of Rotherham is only 258,000 (albeit that many more will have passed through over the period in question)!

There are at least a couple of massive questions that need detailed investigation:

1) Why and how did this culture develop, whereby particular groups (mainly, if not entirely, men of Pakistani origin) openly worked together to abuse young girls? Because it clearly was a culture, not just a few isolated, depraved individuals.

2) Why did the authorities - from the police to local council services - fail to address the situation adequately?

Investigations into the culture of abuse need to look in detail at these men's attitudes and where they came from - and that needs to include connections to racial or religious background, along with other factors. Individual rapists and child abusers come from every background, but there's clearly a particular problem with particular groups developing a particular culture here. Beyond identifying the criminals involved and dealing with them through the courts, we need to understand why this is happening if we're going to be able to stop it becoming even more widespread. Are Islamic attitudes to women (e.g. subservient status or strict attitudes to premarital sex) feeding the problem? Or are these attitudes rooted in particular Muslim groups (the problem with so many Pakistani men doesn't seem to be replicated with Bangladeshi or Middle Eastern men, as far as I can tell - though some Iraqis, Afghans, Somalis and Kosovans have also been involved in different cases)? Were these men single or married? Were they mostly of lowly status? Were they heavily into internet porn? Was all this some weird extrapolation from traditional Muslim values - that "respectable" girls should be treated with respect, but that troubled girls were fair game? The contrast between strict traditional attitudes and liberal Western values - and their potential for abuse? And why all the violence? Grown men wanting to have sex with schoolgirls is abusive, but willfully bringing violence into it seems to be taking it to another level - one of contempt, hostility and misogyny....and it's interesting that, while the majority of reported cases involved white girls, some also involved Asian girls and the suggestion seems to be that this group may be under-reported due to fears of damaged reputations, being disowned by their families etc.

The second issue of why so little was done about it also requires some difficult questions. Were these girls seen as unimportant by the police because so many of them seem to have come from troubled backgrounds ("chavs", "slappers" and "benefit scroungers", anyone)? Were people, at the council in particular, treading on eggshells for fear of being seen as racist? If so, that's racist in itself; particular problems sometimes disproportionately afflict particular racial/religious groups for cultural reasons and it is equal treatment to address that reality. Also, what role was played by the fact that Rotherham has effectively been a "rotten borough", with local politics and patronage dominated for decades by one party (Labour here, but could easily be other parties elsewhere)?

Clearly, people need to go to jail, heads need to roll and complacent people need to take responsibility, but if that's all that happens, it will just be a fire-fighting exercise and the problem will keep cropping up elsewhere.

We might think that we understand what has gone on, but serious and detailed investigative work needs to be done into what lies behind this. Maybe that will confirm what we think or maybe it won't, but we owe it to potential future victims and to the health of our society, to investigate this properly at every level.

Very aggressively forward looking post that, similar to what I was hearing on the radio yesterday from some local labour Mp who was very keen to start looking forward rather than back, and echoes labour and the left's general reaction which has been to hound Shaun Wright for a resignation to deflect attention from their own role.

While I appreciate that your immediate forward looking ideas are perfectly credible, the obvious ommission is the time you liberals are going to devote to a deep reflection on the role you and your pro-hypersensitivity played in allowing this to happen. Let's not pull any punches, groups attempting to highlight these kinds of issues in the past have been immediately and aggressively dismissed as racist by the general left, creating a culture of fear in which people were too afraid to be honest. The left carries a significant amount of the blame for this, learning and reflection should be your priority.

Edited 28 August 2014 by MooseBreath

[Finnegan]

I love MooseBreath World.

Where everyone vaguely liberal is involved in an enormous conspiracy to rape children, destroy the English culture and persecute white heterosexuals.

[MooseBreath]

I love MooseBreath World.

Where everyone vaguely liberal is involved in an enormous conspiracy to rape children, destroy the English culture and persecute white heterosexuals.

You'd deny that the left lead the charge towards instant accusations of racism whenever someone dared question a specific non-white ethnic group? Funny because for a while it seemed like that was all they ever did and they were really quite proud of showing how gosh darn multicultural they were. Typically, they didn't see the unintended consequences coming. Others did but were promptly chastised for it. Had the left been willing to listen, many children could have been saved from rape and torture. Edited 28 August 2014 by MooseBreath

[Finnegan]

Who or what the **** even IS your "Left"? It's like Empty's Zionists or Rod Hull's blacks.

[MooseBreath]

Who or what the **** even IS your "Left"? It's like Empty's Zionists or Rod Hull's blacks.

Deflecting is an understandable reaction, but I do hope the left in general is having a few quiet moments to reflect. The fact is that their desire to make constant accusations of racism is what created the culture of fear which is what allowed these terrible events to continue for so long. I'm not saying they should be charged or anything, just that they should be using this as an opportunity to learn, for apparently the first time, about consequences.

[leicsmac]

Deflecting is an understandable reaction, but I do hope the left in general is having a few quiet moments to reflect. The fact is that their desire to make constant accusations of racism is what created the culture of fear which is what allowed these terrible events to continue for so long. I'm not saying they should be charged or anything, just that they should be using this as an opportunity to learn, for apparently the first time, about consequences.

 

Really? I thought freedom of speech and action without consequence was something the 'Right' placed great value on? After all, they're the ones who want less regulation of certain areas.

 

Generalisation answering generalisation.

[MooseBreath]

Really? I thought freedom of speech and action without consequence was something the 'Right' placed great value on? After all, they're the ones who want less regulation of certain areas.

Generalisation answering generalisation.

Deflecting.

I'm not saying anything about freedom of speech. I recognise that the left, defamatory issues aside, were entitled to make accusations. I'm just saying that I hope they reflect on how badly, horrifically wrong they got it.

Edited 28 August 2014 by MooseBreath

[Harry - LCFC]

The police should take most of the blame. It's all well and good saying they were concerned of the accusations that might come their way but it's wrong to take responsibility away from them for ignoring this crime and throw it onto somebody else.

[leicsmac]

Deflecting.

I'm not saying anything about freedom of speech. I recognise that the left, defamatory issues aside, were entitled to make accusations. I'm just saying that I hope they reflect on how badly, horrifically wrong they got it.

 

Will making people who were asking that an entire demographic not be demonised on account of individuals within their ranks undergo some kind of mental self-flagellation somehow make this whole horrific situation right again?

 

The culpability here lies with the monsters who carried out these acts and the authorities who had the power to stop them but didn't, no one else. Once again, I thought the right wing didn't go in for collective responsibility - thought it was all about the individual?

[Webbo]

Will making people who were asking that an entire demographic not be demonised on account of individuals within their ranks undergo some kind of mental self-flagellation somehow make this whole horrific situation right again?

 

It was a bit more than that. It was ignoring mounting evidence/ turning a blind eye to horrific sex abuse because they were frightened of being accused of racism.

 

You have to ask yourself why people were so afraid if the McCarthyite atmosphere generated by the left wing establishment didn't actually exist as some on here have said.

[Guest MattP]

I love MooseBreath World.

Where everyone vaguely liberal is involved in an enormous conspiracy to rape children, destroy the English culture and persecute white heterosexuals.

 

Denis Skinner has openly admitted in today's times that these claims weren't investigated fully as and I quote directly 'we didn't want to rock the boat or upset the Guardian reading elite".

 

When you are turning a blind eye to child rape to show how liberal you are, I think it's time to some serious questions of your own beliefs, values and intentions. In the last two years we have found out that the Labour government had decided to turn a blind eye to immigration and engage is levels that have now apologised for just to to 'rub the right's nose in it', now we have this, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this was the same with a few of them.

 

How anyone can vote for this lot is beyond me, you need a fcuking lobotomy if you do. They should rename themselves the 'We're sorry' party, all they do these days is apologise for completely ****ing up and ruining people's lives.

[Guest MattP]

Your praise for Sikhs taking the law into their own hands makes me a bit uneasy

 

Really? It strikes me as people actually caring about their own people, something a lot of our own have completely lost the desire for.

 

If the police, community leaders or courts can't stop people raping your children what else are you supposed to do?

Edited 28 August 2014 by MattP

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Sure this goes on in most if not all areas of the country. Fvcking horrible.

[leicsmac]

It was a bit more than that. It was ignoring mounting evidence/ turning a blind eye to horrific sex abuse because they were frightened of being accused of racism.

 

You have to ask yourself why people were so afraid if the McCarthyite atmosphere generated by the left wing establishment didn't actually exist as some on here have said.

 

Did they really lack the courage of their convictions so much that they decided to sit on this for fear of being branded racist? 

 

That's cowardly as well as incompetent, if that's the case. It's not like the countrys majority and popular media-related opinion is decisively pro-Muslim/other minority demographics, is it?

[Dr The Singh]

Did they really lack the courage of their convictions so much that they decided to sit on this for fear of being branded racist? 

 

That's cowardly as well as incompetent, if that's the case. It's not like the countrys majority and popular media-related opinion is decisively pro-Muslim/other minority demographics, is it?

Yes, it's true, welcome to the PC , apologist world we live in!!

[Webbo]

Did they really lack the courage of their convictions so much that they decided to sit on this for fear of being branded racist? 

 

That's cowardly as well as incompetent, if that's the case. It's not like the countrys majority and popular media-related opinion is decisively pro-Muslim/other minority demographics, is it?

The BBC which controls the majority of the media couldn't be described as anti muslim, nor the Guardian or Independent, ITN have a fairly liberal outlook as well. I'd argue that the rest of the papers aren't as racist as they're painted either. 

[Guest MattP]

Did they really lack the courage of their convictions so much that they decided to sit on this for fear of being branded racist? 

 

That's cowardly as well as incompetent, if that's the case. It's not like the countrys majority and popular media-related opinion is decisively pro-Muslim/other minority demographics, is it?

 

Of course, an accusation of racism these days can land you in prison, lose your job and be subjected to all sort of public assassination, it's worse than murder in some people's eyes. Look at Malky Mackay, he sends a few texts about chinks and the whole population is demanding he doesn't work again. Racism (along with celebrity peadophilia) is a crime where you are guilty until proven innocent here these days.

 

As for the second point, one party certainly is, what's 1,200 children being raped when you are pandering to a 8,000 loyal voting following in Rotherham? Have a look at Bradford and Galloway and you'll see what happens when you decide to actually start asking people to be accountable. The Labour Party will be a Socialist/Islamic combination in a few years anyway, they have a lot in common and know how to get the results they want (wink wink).

 

I think it's harsh to call anyone cowardly, we;ve seen how these types work, vicious people.

Edited 28 August 2014 by MattP

[Dr The Singh]

Of course, an accusation of racism these days can land you in prison, lose your job and be subjected to all sort of public assassination, it's worse than murder in some people's eyes. Look at Malky Mackay, he sends a few texts about chinks and the whole population is demanding he doesn't work again. Racism (along with celebrity peadophilia) is a crime where you are guilty until proven innocent here these days.

 

As for the second point, one party certainly is, what's 1,200 children being raped when you are pandering to a 8,000 loyal voting following in Rotherham? Have a look at Bradford and Galloway and you'll see what happens when you decide to actually start asking people to be accountable. The Labour Party will be a Socialist/Islamic combination in a few years anyway, they have a lot in common and know how to get the results they want (wink wink).

 

I think it's harsh to call anyone cowardly, we;ve seen how these types work, vicious people.

It's more then just racism Matt, it's the vote bank, in majority muslim area's accusations will lose votes and those people in gov job, having riots and protest due to accusations will also lead dismissal!  One for talking over a beer, but this will be a problem in the future!!

[Alf Bentley]

The thing is Alf, you didn't challenge that point, you tried to dismiss it by saying that marital rape was "technically" legal over here until 1991, so you could say that it was the "cultural norm" here. Obviously it wasn't but that doesn't mean it isn't the cultural norm in Pakistan and if you or I could prove what Dennis said wrong then we would and show him up for a bigoted racist.

 

We can't prove him wrong, we assume he is wrong, we hope he is wrong, because I think you see the world as I do, that generally all people are good. That most people know right from wrong, and that just because there is no law expressly forbidding it, no man would actually rape his wife and no culture would permit it as acceptable. So we assume it is just a cultural misunderstanding, a poor translation from on old text. We just can't believe it, even when confronted by evidence, so we don't.

 

This is exactly the sort of attitude that allowed this atrocity to happen in Rotherham. We have to accept that attitudes in Pakistan are fvcked up, it is not an insignificant minority, but that the overriding culture in Pakistan and other Muslim countries when it comes to women is something that cannot be tolerated and cannot be allowed to fester and develop (any further) in this country. This is not to say every Pakistani Muslim is a wife raper or child abuser, but there is clearly something within that culture that is rotten, and we can't keep on ignoring it and blaming it on a small fvcked up minority. I am horrified by the scale of this in Rotherham, and concerned about the number of similar cases that could come to light. I expect that these revelations will get a reaction similar to the Savile revelations, and there will be full scale investigations into all similar Pakistani and Muslim communities and every complaint no matter how small is investigated fully.

 

I really do hope that these investigations find no more incidences of abuse, and that actually this really was an isolated and extreme case that just happened to be men of Pakistani origin, but I'm not going to hold my breath, the scale and systematic failure of the authorities to protect these girls is beyond shocking and can never happen again.

 

It makes me very angry when people misrepresent my views in order to make their own points - which is precisely what you've done.

 

- I DID challenge Denis' point, I just did it ineffectively - misguidedly, even. I raised the fact that marital rape was legal here until 1991 to challenge his implied assumption that we were much better than the Pakistanis, whose cultural norm was marital rape. At the very least, I should have put inverted commas around "cultural norm"; even better, I should have used "legally permissible" and asked him to produce evidence that marital rape is the norm among Pakistanis but not in Britain.

 

- I have little knowledge of Pakistan and even less of what happens in Pakistani bedrooms, but I certainly DON'T believe that no man would rape his wife and no culture would accept it! I assume that most British men wouldn't rape their wives, but that a small minority do. I assume the same about Pakistan, but imagine that it is more common there - and more accepted by many women. I might be quite wrong about that, though. Wikipedia dates the change in attitudes in the West to the mid/late-20th Century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#Marriage_and_sexual_violence), which chimes with my youthful recollection of some people contesting the idea of criminalisation back in the 70s/80s. The phrase "conjugal rights" used not to be ironic, you know!

 

- I certainly DON'T think that "generally all people are good". I think that most people are fairly decent most of the time. A few are saints and a few are bastards...but a lot more can become bastards (or saints) if that becomes the prevailing culture where they live. If Nazism taught us anything, it taught us that....and that's why this apparent culture of abuse among some mainly Pakistani men needs to be taken very seriously indeed. It needs to be understood and it needs to be stamped out.

 

- I DON'T assume it's "just a cultural misunderstanding". There are people from all sorts of backgrounds in this country, so flexibility has to be shown within reason. My own (Irish) grandparents had an arranged marriage, for example. But flexibility can only apply within boundaries acceptable to British society - and grooming vulnerable underage girls for sex abuse or threatening them with violence certainly isn't acceptable, and neither is marital rape (now). If Pakistani men or anyone from any background are doing those things, they need to be stopped - and if the culture applies mainly to particular racial or religious groups, that needs to be dealt with, too.

 

- We, or least I DON'T "have to accept that attitudes in Pakistan are fvcked up" or that "the overriding culture in Pakistan and other Muslim countries towards women cannot be tolerated". Attitudes may very well be fvcked up and they may be feeding this problem, but the issue needs to be investigated properly, not based on superficial assumptions. I know very little about Pakistani society, but maybe you're a leading expert and have no need to wait for a proper investigation? 

 

- I certainly CAN "believe it [rape/child abuse], even when confronted with evidence" and DON'T think it should be "ignored" or "blamed on a small fvcked up minority". I've made clear that it should be investigated properly and dealt with firmly - and it is clearly a fairly large minority, a widespread culture. That was evident from previous cases (Derby, Rochdale etc.). The difference here is the scale of the abuse.

 

- "[Mine] is exactly the sort of attitude that allowed this atrocity to happen in Rotherham"?!? Fvck off! Seriously, fvck right off! That is downright offensive. I've made my views clear: this outrage in Rotherham should have been dealt with a long time ago. As it wasn't, it should be investigated now and dealt with now - both the perpetrators and the authorities who failed to take it seriously enough in the past. That investigation will certainly need to look at why it is predominantly Pakistani Muslim men who are involved; the cultural causes of this depravity need to be identified and tackled, whether those causes relate to religion, race, attitudes to women, to particular social groups, or anything else.

 

- Hopefully Rotherham is indeed a particularly extreme case, but I'd be astonished if more cases weren't uncovered now - and if Pakistani men weren't involved. After all, there have already been several very serious cases, including Derby and Rochdale.

 

- I agree that this is beyond shocking and have said as much in other posts. That is why I find it offensive when you imply that I'd put being "right on" about race relations or multiculturalism ahead of the safety of children. I live in Leicester and have a 10-year-old daughter, so this is a very direct concern for me, though obviously you weren't to know that as you don't know me...but that didn't stop you making a whole host of assumptions about what I think! As it happens, most of our limited experiences with Muslim families have been fine. Our daughter's current best friend is a (3rd generation Bangladeshi) Muslim and they seem a very nice family. Most of the other Muslim kids at her school (a minority) seem fine, although we did have a problem with a Muslim lad a couple of years back (he kept insisting that our daughter had to say that she was a Muslim to be allowed to play with him, so we made an official complaint to the school). With secondary school and adolescence looming, Rotherham is of obvious concern. However, I have no intention of tarring all Muslims or all Asians with the same brush to curry favour with bigots - and no intention of allowing people like you to stereotype me as some naive, right-on pinko who can't prioritise between child safety and nicey-nicey race relations.

[leicsmac]

Yes, it's true, welcome to the PC , apologist world we live in!!

 

Not buying it. I still think the views of the majority in the UK lean towards conservatism.

 

Of course, an accusation of racism these days can land you in prison, lose your job and be subjected to all sort of public assassination, it's worse than murder in some people's eyes. Look at Malky Mackay, he sends a few texts about chinks and the whole population is demanding he doesn't work again. Racism (along with celebrity peadophilia) is a crime where you are guilty until proven innocent here these days.

 

As for the second point, one party certainly is, what's 1,200 children being raped when you are pandering to a 8,000 loyal voting following? The Labour Party will be a Socialist/Islamic combination in a few years anyway, they have a lot in common and know how to get the results they want.

 

I think it's harsh to call anyone cowardly, we;ve seen how these types work, vicious people.

 

Even if they have pretty solid evidence that this was going on? If they run with it and all of this comes out officially earlier they're completely vindicated. Any racism accusations would sound pretty hollow when you've just uncovered 1,200 sexual offences.

 

The BBC which controls the majority of the media couldn't be described as anti muslim, nor the Guardian or Independent, ITN have a fairly liberal outlook as well. I'd argue that the rest of the papers aren't as racist as they're painted either. 

 

The BBC controls the majority of the media here? TV media possibly, but the last time I checked they didn't do print. And the circulations figures of the Grauniad and the Indy hardly compare to the Sun or the Mail, do they?

 

The Beeb is the only large scale media company in the UK that doesn't run the majority of stories involving minorities in a negative light.

[Webbo]

.

 

 

The BBC controls the majority of the media here? TV media possibly, but the last time I checked they didn't do print. And the circulations figures of the Grauniad and the Indy hardly compare to the Sun or the Mail, do they?

 

The Beeb is the only large scale media company in the UK that doesn't run the majority of stories involving minorities in a negative light.

Tv and radio and the internet. I'd guess that the 10 o'clock news reaches a higher audience than any newspaper.

[Captain...]

It makes me very angry when people misrepresent my views in order to make their own points - which is precisely what you've done.

 

 

- "[Mine] is exactly the sort of attitude that allowed this atrocity to happen in Rotherham"?!? Fvck off! Seriously, fvck right off! That is downright offensive. I've made my views clear: this outrage in Rotherham should have been dealt with a long time ago. As it wasn't, it should be investigated now and dealt with now - both the perpetrators and the authorities who failed to take it seriously enough in the past. That investigation will certainly need to look at why it is predominantly Pakistani Muslim men who are involved; the cultural causes of this depravity need to be identified and tackled, whether those causes relate to religion, race, attitudes to women, to particular social groups, or anything else.

 

Apologies for any offence and I would like to clarify by we I don't mean you and me, and don't mean anything personally, I don't know you and should not try and represent your views, they are mainly my views I am questioning.

 

When I say we, and people with these kind of attitudes, I mean as the kind of people that when someone says something like "raping your wife in Pakistan is culturally acceptable" we immediately think "No it isn't, your comments are disgusting and offensive."

 

Which is immediately what I thought when I read that comment, but I didn't reply as I realized that actually that is what I did before when the first Pakistani paedo ring was exposed, and what people in power have admitted to thinking about these cases in Rotherham.

 

It is the typical default position of you and me and others, and this whole case has really shaken up my thought process, the fact people have come out and said they didn't pursue it because they feared being called racist has just made me think.

 

Apologies again.

Edited 28 August 2014 by Captain...