Chandler

My theory does not cover MM's fate as you well know. It deals exclusively with the reasons behind her disappearance.

Do you really want to read my answer to your request PD?

Raj, if you REALLY want to know why MM was taken; tune in to this thread EVERY DAY and read every single chapter I post, at least TWICE. When checking out the latest instalment, if you have time, revisit earlier chapters - there will be a lot of important information that you will need to remember. People's Droyd, it will soon become apparent why I wouldn't be able to publish my account off line...

Intrigued, Mr Zingari? I guarantee you, my friend, that no thriller you have ever read or will ever read comes close to the story that I have to tell. And contrary to what 1444ry will have you believe my tale is almost certainly true. In fact I have absolutely no doubt that both your final reaction (and that of all other fair minded posters on this thread) will be that it's the only plausible explanation for Madeleine's disappearance. And you won't have to take a single word on trust - every claim will be backed up by citations you can check out yourself.

MADDIE - THE $30 TRILLION TOT A CHANDLER PRODUCTION COMING SOON TO A GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD NEAR YOU

Why do I get the feeling that you are an agent provocateur, 1444ry? Did Gerry McCann botch your gran's triple bypass? Or is it that you are simply a pathological liar (virtually every one of your MM posts is a truth free zone)? Gerry McCann's unorthodox surgical techniques have unfortunately turned the public against him... So Clarence Mitchell leaked the negotiations with IMG to the media did he? Well, lets look at The Times link that YOU put up: The couple's spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, confirmed that a meeting with the agency IMG took place last month but he added that Gerry and Kate McCann did not attend and nothing has yet been agreed. Interesting choice of verb don't you think? 'Confirmed' suggests that the media went to Mitchell rather than the other way round. So which little birdy twittered to the hacks? Oh! Surprise! Surprise! you don't think that your Times link might give us a clue do you? It is believed that IMG, the firm behind the award-winning drama-documentary Touching The Void, made the initial approach. And so on to Gerry's 'denial' (by the way, 1444ry, denial is not normally regarded as a damage limitation tactic). Well let's see how yesterday's Daily Mail reported this rebuttal: "We can categorically deny that we are considering a movie about Madeleine's disappearance." Pretty unequivocal. But note the use of the word 'movie.' And Gerry goes on: "There was a preliminary discussion between a production agency and a representative of Kate and I to discuss the possibility of a documentary... Sorry what was that? ...a documentary about the issues we have faced since Madeleine was abducted." So what we in fact MIGHT be looking at is an ersatz Panorama DVD. And why exactly are the McCanns doing this? To launch their Hollywood careers? Or do they have a more urgent need? 'Maddie, The Movie' - apparently Tom Cruise has turned down the role of cuddle cat... They hope a lucrative deal would fund the continuing search for Madeleine amid fears that the £1.2million raised from public donations will run out within months. So what am I bid for 'Maddie, The Movie?' One blue tennis bag maybe? PS Good to see you back Mr Zingari. You might be interested to know that my own much vaunted epic, 'Maddie The $30 Trillion Tot', is going into production soon...

Now, anyone recognise the chap below? Due to go on trial soon for the 'crime of the century' (so far). His supposed handiwork appalled the nation at the time - but that was many moons ago. There's been a media blackout on the case for over a year now (the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith did admittedly advise 'restraint' a request that the hacks have uncharacteristically observed to the point of Trappist silence) - don't remember Ian Huntley receiving such 'favourable' treatment. Hacks! - name the forgotten man and 'his' forgotten crimes and win yourself a P45! Makes you wonder a bit, then, about the daily wall to wall press coverage of MM's disappearance. In fact, if it wasn't for me banging on about it ad nauseam this thread would probably die. And that's interesting isn't it? It shows that most people are bored with it all. I therefore struggle to see how the press then can either increase or halt falling circulations by continuing to run with this story if this forum is anything to go by (and as I said before it is an excellent barometer of the public mood which is why I'm here and not on some whacko conspiracy board). Yet, not a day passes when some recycled nonsense about the McCanns makes at least two red tops and a broadsheet. Odd innit?

Sorry Babylon, however close my analogy was to Danson's or Culkin's it was nothing more than pure coincidence - an ironic admission coming from a conspiracy theorist. My viewing is strictly meat and two veg - news, documentary and sport.

1444ry, when you stand too close to an impressionist painting all you'll see is something like this: but stand back a little and you might see something like this: Now, on to your oh so stunning revelations: (a) This 'report' was first carried by Correio da Manha (of the 8.1.08) - the Portorag now charged with libelling the McCanns and the Tapas seven. Odd the Portorag got this scoop as the Forensic Science Service's client is actually Leicestershire Constabulary and NOT the PJ (Sunday Times 16.12.07). Odder still that these funny paras also cropped up in the story over here: It is understood that they are using a new technique called low copy number analysis, which allows them to find a genetic fingerprint from a tiny sample. The samples from the flat and the hire car were said to be damaged and of low quality, but police sources now claim the latest results are definitive. (Daily Mail 8.1.08) Not the same low copy number technique, by any chance, that 'showed' (contrary to the laws of science) that Madeleine had been sedated? Not the same technique, by any chance, that just got Sean Hoey off the Omagh Bomb rap? Not the same technique, by any chance, that is now so widely discredited that forensics experts are urging that it be ruled inadmissable as evidence in court? And not the same story, by any chance, that all the Anglo-Port rags ran last August? (b) The ONE director who has resigned from the Madeleine fund is former GMTV totty Esther McVey. Former GMTV presenter maybe, but Esther is still very current totty. Now, I just wonder whether the fact that Ms McVey will be contesting a Wirral constituency for the Tories had anything to do with her resignation. When she hopped on board the Maddie fund the McCanns were almost flavour of the month, but now... You don't think that she could be THAT much of a user do you? You don't think the fact that the McCanns own (Conservative) MP, Steven Dorrell, has avoided them like the plague for the last six months might have influenced her in any way do you? Stephen Dorrell - faints at the sight of bubos. You don't think that all politicians are gutless, opportunist shysters do you? ( c ) Is this the much vaunted 'reinterview' the PJ mysteriously managed to miss (but Jane Tanner was so willing to attend - Panorama 19.11.07) during their cloak and dagger trip to Enderby? Is this the 'reinterivew' that takes 'up to six months' to arrange because of all the 'letters' that the PJ have to send? Or is this the 'reinterview' that Leicestershire Constabulary won't allow to happen unless/until 'dark forces' tell them otherwise? (d) In addition to 'arguido' and 'judicial secrecy' there is another peculiarity about the Portuguese justice system. It's called 'Flippo Floppo.' This term applies to the public prosecutor who is required to change his mind about the 'weight of the body of evidence' at least once a week. This ensures that no one has a fookin' clue about what is going on. No one except Chandler maybe...

From I Zingari Hi chandler ; maybe you are correct that the blue FILA bag seen being carried by CM does indeed belong to him , but why has he not shown some evidence to support this ( sorry if he already has and i've missed it) Does CM seem to you the sort of chav to take a "FILA" bag ( quite clearly visible ) even on holiday with him, let alone official business ? ( would he even own one ? ) to me it seems to me a little out of "style" for him You may assume it belongs to CM, and you may be correct in the assumption but personally i'd like to see it proved and put to bed And secondly ; where would they all be going "together" carrying their own luggage on may 22nd ? were they on their way to the same hotel to check in together ( all at the same time ) ? it doesn't really follow , surely CM would have already left his own bags in his room The photo just has the "appearance" of GM being helped to carry his bags by CM . Somehow , this blue fila bag flame should be easy for GMs men to stamp out but for some reason its not quite yet been extinguished Again, Chandler all the best with your investigation (and i'm not taking any sides) but it seems unlike you to "assume" anything in this case good luck mate,and happy new year ( or whatever salutation you'd prefer ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Chandler: This blue bag affair is becoming rather like a protracted tennis match that's stuck on deuce in the final set. OK, Mr Zingari, here are a few of my own special backhand returns to your sliced serves: (1) So CM isn't chav enough to take a FILA bag on vacation? Your inference then is that GM, a consultant cardiologist, IS? Also, if CM isn't quite chav enough to carry his own FILA, it must follow then that he certainly isn't chav enough to carry anyone else's. Perhaps you are attaching too much significance to the Getty Image. Rest assured, if there was anything in it the media would have picked up on it by now. Although upwardly mobile, there are no chavs known to be performing open heart surgery in the UK. (2) We don't know exactly where the Getty Image was taken and although it is stamped 22.5.07 we can't be sure either of the precise date or time. CM & GM could have been going to or returning from anywhere. Remember, this was a time when GM & KM were travelling widely together (and separately) making appeals. It follows then, that GM would have to carry luggage. (3) Looks to me like the GM men don't need to stamp out the FILA flame as the media has already done this for them - the last mainstream reference to the blue bag was made by the Daily Mail Online of the 25.12.07 - nearly a week ago. And even before this date, GM's alleged PJ bag theft statement and various accounts of (anonymous) blue bag witnesses were dropped by the press, including, incredibly and shamefully, the very news organisation widely credited with breaking the blue bag story - Sky News. This sad tale lacks the most basic ingredients of credibility. In order to be taken seriously the 'blue bag' theory would have to be supported by at least THREE of the following: (i) Written proof of GM's PJ report (ie date. time, mode of communication, place, attending officers, witnesses etc) including full statement by the complainant giving description of bag, contents and the time, location and circumstances in which it disappeared. (ii) Any subsequent insurance claim submitted by GM. Check your policy carefully before placing your child's remains in a tennis bag, 'losing it' and claiming. (iii) A photograph of an exact facsimile of the bag GM reported stolen with manufacturer's logo, model no etc. (iv) Broadcast images/footage of the actual bag. The Getty Image of the FILA bag you produced, to the best of my knowledge, has not been verified by any media outlet. (v) Some public statement by the PJ that they are indeed looking for this bag and an explanation as to why this fact was never aired prior to the 23.12.07. My advice to you Mr Zingari is to hang fire until any of this happens. My hunch is that you could be waiting a very long time. Best to consider the matter closed, move on and wait for the next piece of dis, sorry, new information. Mr Zingari's alter ego scans the horizon for incoming...blue bags. Happy News Year to one and all. Will report back later in the week with some REAL insights.

Extensive Googling and trawling through online media archives reveal no mention of a blue bag (let alone a blue TENNIS bag) in the Madeleine McCann investigation prior to 23.12.07. The first mention of a blue tennis bag came in a Sky News trailer on the 23/12 for their Madeleine McCann Mystery' (MMM) documentary which was broadcast the following day. All major newswire and blue chip media accounts that such a bag was reported stolen by Gerry McCann have now mysteriously disappeared. The Pj suspect that Gerry McCann secretly hid all media references to a blue tennis bag in a blue tennis bag. The first mention of a bag as a possible means of disposal of MM's remains was carried in The Sunday Mirror (contained within your link above): "They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident' and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence." There are many problems with this this. Firstly, there is no description of the bag. Secondly, this report appeared four months after MM disappeared (ie 120+ days without the PJ asserting anything about a bag). Finally, if we accept this as a 'disposal theory' then it is at best a minor as well as a belated one. For the record, the most cited PJ disposal scenario is the interment at 'Nossa Senhora da Luz' churchyard. Next comes the refrigeration of MM's remains at an unspecified location. Coming soon to a website near you - the PJ's unspecified refrigeration location. Of course, disposal by blue tennis bag together with the means just cited are not mutually exclusive propositions. The problem here, though, is that there is no record of such a 'belt and braces' hypothesis ever being aired. And for good reason. Gerry McCann played very little tennis in Praia da Luz because: Gerry had knocked up at the start of the 4.30pm tennis-drills session, but had decided not to exacerbate an injury to his Achilles tendon, so had dropped out... (Sunday Times 16.12.07 - NB same press stable as Sky News) Actually, Gerry McCann was sidelined because he didn't want to exacerbate his grating Glaswgian accent... And even if he had not been bothered by this injury and played a little more this little quote reveals why he didn't need a tennis bag: But Mr McCann told friends yesterday that he did not take any tennis equipment to Praia da Luz.. (Daily Mail Online 25.12.07) But of course Gerry McCann would say that wouldn't he, sure as you, 1444ry, would say that he would say that wouldn 't you (go figure)? Ever considered working for the CPS? It goes without saying that the ability to fit the hapless up is an essential pre requisite. Better still, why not apply to be coroner Number 5 in the Diana inquest after his current nibs bows out with 'I'm sorry but all this is getting a bit too much for me...sniff.' Was Diana put in a blue tennis bag after Dodi over-sedated her? 1444ry, you are what is called in the conspiracy trade a 'disinformationist' a person who deliberately hops onto sites and threads like this with the sole intention of misleading other posters. FAO Mr Zingari - Clarence Mitchell is now The McCanns' PR man NOT their bag man. At the time the image you posted was taken (22.5.07) Clarence Mitchell was still a government employee (Director of the Home Office's 'Media Monitoring Unit seconded to the Foreign Office - no bag carrying duties in the job description as far as I'm aware). The obvious conclsion to draw, then, is the bag that Mitchell is pictured carrying is probably his own. And without wishing to appear too pedantic a FILA tennis bag is a distinctly non blue, customised, chic accessory that looks something rather like this: but easily confused with Clarence's drab looking jim-jams and poo-poo undies container (by the partially sighted).

Yes I was. I left before Paddy's leveller though. Unfortunately it was written in the stars - the immutable law of the ex and all that bullshit. Glad I didn't see it.

I'm sorry Mr Zingari but I'm a little baffled by your post. You write about Sky News's coverage of the wretched blue tennis bag in a way that suggests you didn't take in my post. It's possible my abbreviation of the 'Madeleine McCann Mystery' to 'MMM' confused you - this documentary was a Sky News production. I must congratulate you though on your interesting observation (although it does not lend the 'bag theory' an iota of credibility - that is complete nonsense first to last). However, the image you refer to does possibly provide us with an insight into how fiendish minds may go about constructing their bizarre allegations and how they keep the public hooked by keeping the McCanns in the frame. There will undoubtedly be many more 'blue bag' episodes in this saga - and virtually all of these reports will be forgotten in a few days.

Well, my first observation on this, the latest instalment of the 'McCann Roadshow', is that you would have thought that by now our resident McCannophobes would have been just a little wary about taking this latest 'scoop' (ie Gerry had a blue tennis holdall that he reported stolen to the PJ on the day that Madeleine disappeared) at face value. Roger Federer is rumoured to carry around junior practice partners between knock abouts in his bag... Which is why yours truly decided to do a little digging before giving his own valuation. And I can tell you now that my midnight delving has uncovered some curious objects. Before I brief you about my 'finds' a word or two about the hunch that got me reaching for my Spear & Jackson. S&J's Country Border Spade 2b - just the ticket for unearthing the truth. I felt that waiting till Day 234 of the enquiry to present such a crucial piece of evidence was more than a little odd. One could be forgiven for thinking that the PJ should have issued a description of the tennis bag on Day 1. Was it possible, I wondered, that this bag's existence was just another example of recycled news? I had a feeling that a bag had already cropped up somewhere in the investigation. And sure enough one had. Except it wasn't blue and it wasn't for tennis - it was a white carrier job: A bag of clothes containing DNA linked to Madeleine McCann has been discovered dumped by a road in Portugal. The white carrier bag was discovered in a layby two weeks ago near Faro airport, according to a report in the News of the World. Kate and Gerry McCann have since been informed of its contents. The bag is believed to contain a blue fleece jacket and a pair of adult jeans with traces of DNA which may have come from Maddie. (Daily Mail 5.11.07) Curiously, this startling revelation now seems to have been buried in some media landfill site (where, no doubt, it will soon be joined by the blue tennis bag). A final suspicion that came to me as I was rooting away in the garden shed for my old paraffin lamp was that the enigmatic blue bag was just a ploy to boost the ratings for the Xmas Eve Sky News 'Madeleine McCann Mystery (MMM).' Perish the thought that our (allegedly) 'McCannophile' media could do such a thing (more on this in a mo)! The Japs might pronounce 'Sky News' as 'Sky Ruse' which, on reflection, is perhaps more accurate. So, what have we here then? Well, if you come a little closer and wait a tick while I clean the muck off these little nuggets you'll see that I have in my clammy mitts some genuine anonymous witnesses: Now, Witness 'A', you are absolutely SURE that you saw a blue tennis bag with a baby in it at the French Open? Well I THOUGHT I had some genuine anonymous witnesses to Gerry's blue tennis bag. They were mentioned (but neither identified nor produced) on the 'MMM.' They were also referred to in several national newspapers on Xmas Eve but all such references have now been mystriously excised (The Times piece on the subject appears to have gone through the censor's mangle backwards - it's enough to make you feel you're losing your marbles). Now, I had hoped also to bring you the 'Sky' jewel here - Gerry's report to the PJ that someone had swiped his blue tennis bag - but there's been a bit of a technical hitch. We do know that some antiques anoraks definitely spotted this claim on Sky News trailers for the 'MMM' whilst others said they saw it on the web. But, cometh the hour er... goeth the story...downeth the pan. The 'MMM' strangely dropped its little 'Gerry PJ Report Exclusive' as did ALL mainstream media (NB including other Murdoch media Sun, Times) following the programme. Instead of a STOLEN bag we now had a MISSING one that vanished around the SAME TIME as Madeleine: According to a new investigation, the bag went missing from the family’s holiday apartment around the time that Madeleine vanished, and it has not been seen since. (Daily Express 24.12.07) It is claimed Portuguese cops have been hunting for the holdall, which disappeared at the same time as the four-year-old girl. (The Sun 24.12.07) You don't think that the litigious McCanns put the wind up the press by asking them to produce documentary proof of Gerry's report of a stolen tennis bag to the PJ (a statement, given the PJ's attitude to the McCanns, you would have expected them to have taken very good care of)? Row Back - the Murdoch Media Machine's principled response to the merest whiff of a libel suit. So, no tennis bag witnesses to be found in the print media (not even anonymous ones) and certainly no account of Gerry McCann's report to PJ of a stolen tennis bag to be seen anywhere. Makes you wonder where Sky News got their information from. Well, one of the reasons why you should follow news of Madeleine's disappearance on this thread is that ol' Chandler 'ere will always unearth some little gem that others may overlook. Like this one: Sky News stood by its story, which it said came from sources who had travelled to the resort after (sic) Madeleine's disappearance. (Daily Mail 24.12.07) One of those very rare occasions when yours truly, widely acknowledged as having an answer for everything, is left speechless. Well almost...except to say that I find it remarkable that a major TV news channel could pass off anonymous after the fact hearsay as evidence without first checking out the circumstances in which Gerry McCann was alleged to have filed his police report and whether any incident number was given (which, of course, would normally be required by his insurer in the event of a claim). The Sky News 'MMM' production was a deplorable example of bogus journalism (presented by the well known 'Brunt' crime reporter better known as Martin ****) which, when not falling over itself trying to get the leading suspect in the case off the hook (by suggesting that 'only' three of the 'Tapas 7' placed him at the scene on the night when, in actual fact, five other independent witnesses also gave statements to the same effect), irresponsibly indulged in fuelling more resentment towards the McCanns by implying that it was more than mere coincidence that the owner of 'Apartment 5a' was a certain Ruth McCann from Liverpool. A complete Brunt McCannophobic scoops, it would appear, ain't just the preserve of 'Porto Rags' like '24 Whores' and 'Diarrhoea No-Tits-Or-Ass.' Yes, it appears we do grow our own and that they are more tastefully constructed. The more cultured posters on this thread might be aware of a possible literary inspiration for the 'tot in a tennis bag' plot. That Oscar Wilde has a lot to answer for.... Lady Bracknell - a fictional old bag.

'Sol Invictus' ('Hail The Unconquered Sun' the real Xmas greeting in ancient Rome until the Christians nicked it) to you Mr Zingari, 1444ry and all others who have an interest in this tragic case. My credibility on this thread rests on my careful research and backing up my findings with citations so I am not going to comment on the blue holdall until I've trawled through the archives to see if it's existence has ever been mentioned before -particularly in the early days after Madeleine's disappearance. I'll try and have something up by the 28th December (2007!) Brumalia, The Lord of Misrule - those were the days...

OK folks I want to put the final nail in the coffin of the 'McCanns killed Maddie' theory before moving on to explore the sad truth behind this tragic affair. It's worth noting that the PJ have circulated (illegally) through the local media a number of competing 'theories' about Maddie's disappearance: (1) she wandered out of the apartment by herself; (2) she was over-sedated by Kate McCann and died as a result; (3) she died as a result of crushing the back of her head on a ceramic flagstone after falling down the steps that led to the apartment (Daily Telegraph 2.10.07). With each of these 'theories' comes a number of competing disposal scenarios: following (1) the PJ say Madeleine was either abducted by an opportunist paedophile or fell into earthworks/roadworks or the sea and died; following (2) the PJ opine that either Gerry (a) buried Madeleine near the local church, then roped in members of the 'Tapas 7' into driving her remains to the Lagos marina, before putting them in a boat and dumping them at sea or that he (b) buried her in the churchyard, but exhumed her three months later and then transported her in the Renault Scenic to be re interred either en route or on return from Huelva or that he © refrigerated her remains before transportation to the marina/Huelva. THE place in Praia da Luz to inter/exhume your dead kids - Mon-Sat only (free shovel after midnight). following (3) the McCanns panicked, hid the body in an undisclosed location and disposed of it in an unspecified way with the help of friends (Daily Telegraph 2.10.07). Now, where is the evidence to corroborate any of this speculation? To the best of my knowledge, there are no confirmed eye witnesses to any of these events. There are no reports of any forensic tests having been carried out at 'Nossa Senhora da Luz' churchyard. No refrigeration unit has ever been traced or tested. The unspecified vehicle allegedly used to transport Madeleine’s remains to the marina and the boat purportedly requisitioned to dump the cadaver at sea have never been identified. And it goes without saying that the window of opportunity that would allow the McCanns to carry out such acts away from the glare of the world's media was tiny. Lagos Marina - fourth dock down and eighth mooring across is where the 'Tapas 7' went swinging after disposal. Which leaves us with the DNA 'recovered' from Apartment 5a and the Renault Scenic. '24 Horas' of the 1.6.07 reported that the DNA taken from the apartment that was sent to the Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal (INML) came from someone other than Robert Murat and McCann family members. A big admission for this McCannophobic rag to make. But the situation was slightly more fluid then than it is now and there were certain uncomfortable aspects to the case that the PJ needed to draw a veil over. There has been no further news on this mysterious sample... Then there are the hair and blood traces reportedly recovered from the Renault Scenic generally accepted as having being sent to Forensic Science Services (FSS) in Birmingham for analysis. On the balance of probabilities though it is unlikely that the results of this work will ever be publicly disclosed. Professor David Barclay (a forensic scientist who worked at FSS for several years - central image below) stated on the 'Dispatches' documentary 'Searching for Madeleine' (aired on C4 18.10.07) that he had never heard of any employee publicly disclosing or leaking test results during an investigation. And, as any trial of suspects linked to Madeleine's disappearance in which any of the FSS findings could be disclosed is, at best, a remote possibility, it’s hard to conceive of any circumstances where disclosure might be possible. Dispatches plods prefer to trouser fat TV fees for rubbishing other cops' cases than just getting by solving their own. In any event, just as it is possible that no Apartment 5a DNA was ever sent to the INML it is also possible that no Renault DNA was ever sent to the FSS. In the Sunday Times of the 16.12.07 there was a remarkable revelation. The FSS, it seems, were not actually acting for the PJ - their client was Leicestershire Constabulary it was the latter force APPARENTLY that had recovered and supplied the DNA. This strange admission combined with last month’s curiously under reported hush hush visit of the PJ to Enderby and the unexpected appearance of one or two highly unusual delegates at the Porto-pig-plods’ briefing just adds fuel to my suspicion that the whole DNA analysis narrative is just a smokescreen. Funny goings on in Enderby - first ever visit by TV crew.

It was 'Apartment 5a' rather than the McCanns that was targeted. Madeleine's profile and her parents predicatable movements made her a victim.

Thanks for that. Nightguard is wrong - Madeleine's abduction was not an opportunistic crime. It was an operation that might have taken up to two years to plan and probably 'rehearsed' for over a year.

Nice try Futter - but my theory goes much, much deeper than this. So much deeper in fact that it almost comes out on 1444ry's side. So stick around if you want your faith in liberal democracy smashed. PS Is the Nightguard 'reply' on your previous post 'Ken's theory?'

Are you psychic Futter? I don't recall having mentioned it here. In fact, I've only ever discussed the outline of it with one other person (via email around August when I didn't have the evidence that I do now) and I have sworn him to secrecy. I'd be obliged if you could unearth 'Ken's theory' for me (provided that it is not a spoof).

A good example of the downside when dealing with 'normal' people...

Touche, monsieur, touche (sorry about the missing accent grave). I explained earlier on this thread why I decided to post my findings here as oppsed to the usual conspircay threads. I'll remind you of my reasons: 1) I want to bounce my ideas off normal people and the (male) demographics of sites like this are good as anywhere; 2) Most conspiracy sites are riddled with disinformation and virtually all conspiracists don't get the big picture. Yes, I am as odd as two left shoes with an ego to match...

Seems like you read ALL of my post Mr Zingari: you're a man after my own heart a true 'truther.' Don't worry for now about the precise meaning of obscure terms - it will ruin it for later. All will be revealed I promise you. When you speak of closure I take it that you are referring to this talkshop here? Yes, I can come up with a very satisfactory and more than plausible explanation about why Maddie vanished. But I would say that wouldn't I? As you are EXACTLY the sort of person I was seeking to address with my theory (intrigued, open minded but discerning) I will allow you, Mr Zingari, to be the principal judge of it on this thread. However, if you are referring to closure of the actual case itself all I can say is that the form book for this kind of incident does not look good. I will assess the prospects for a happy outcome to this sad business later.

Must say it's a bit of a disappointment that no one has posted here since my effort in the wee hours of yesterday. Still, some (relatively) good news for those of you that are curious about my take on the MM affair - I'm going to have to get my skates on if I am to have my scoop (one or two hacks have started to cotton on to the fact that there maybe dark forces at work, though unlike yours truly, they haven't as yet got a handle on what their motives might be). OK so it's onto our chief McCannophobe-in-residence 1444ry (I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you for the umpteenth time that I am no fan of the celtic bohemians medics either but I try not to let my prejudices get the better of my reasoning blah blah blah). My main concerns about 1444ry can be summarised as follows: 1) He is prone to making wild outlandish statements about things he knows next to nothing about; 2) He is very selective about the evidence he presents and conveniently forgets the (dubious) sources for almost all of it; 3) He frequently contradicts himself and has a habit of torpedoing his own case with careless remarks; 4) He isn't as avid a follower of the MM case as he would have us believe. 5) His most recent posts have been lifted almost verbatim from low grade disinformation sites like 'Steph's Blog.' Before I dissect some of his remarks allow me to say (as the men in wigs often do) that 1001 other charges against 1444ry are being taken into consideration. Somethings beggar belief: like the claim that Maddie McCann was kidnapped on the 3 May 2007 in Praia da Luz, Portugal - she wasn’t! - there isn’t one iota of evidence that supports that theory. Looks like a case of 'if you're going to lie, better to lie big.' Even the PJ and the supine Portuguese press would shrink from making an observation as outrageous such as that (as you will see below). It shows that the author is really a black propaganda/disinformation merchant. 24 horas cares exactly one iota more for the McCanns than 1444ry. But there is plenty of forensic and circumstantial evidence to support the police theory that Maddie was killed in the McCanns apartment, This is a very strange statement for a number of reasons: 1) The McCanns hair analysis test (see below) severely dents the PJ's 'over-sedation' theory; 2) The PJ's 'back up' theory is that Madeleine died as a result of a fall down the stairs OUTSIDE the McCanns' apartment (Daily Mail et al 1.10.07.); 3) The results of DNA tests with the 'Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal' and the 'Forensic Science Services' (Birmingham)have yet to be publicly disclosed. The DNA tests conducted in Portugal are reputed to show that a non McCann family member entered their apartment. The DNA tests at FSS are now widely reported as 'inconclusive;' 4) Since the dismissal of leading PJ investigators Almeida, Amaral, de Sousa et al the main circumstantial plank of the police case against the McCanns (the so called 'missing six hours') has been quietly dropped. But the McCann never entertained the idea that she wondered (sic) off, they always said she was kidnapped. Madeleine could not possibly have opened her bedroom's shutters herself and climbed out. According to the police and forensics experts that participated in the Dispatches documentary 'Searching for Madeleine' (C4 18.10.07.) in the unlikely event that she had wandered off her only realistic exit was through the patio doors and then down the steps (if the child gate had been left open) onto the street. Almost certainly, she would then have descended the gradient to a place with which she was familiar: the resort's pool and restaurant complex. 1444ry, you're not exactly blessed in the ol' irony department to uncritically reproduce tosh like the above. The wandering off hypothesis was, of course, a passing figment of the PJ imagination that soon morphed into something more absurd. they maintain that some phantom crept into their apartment, took their daughter without being seen or heard, and then left without leaving a single trace of evidence. Despite the fact that the earliest time given for the arrival of the police (other than their own estimates) was 1.00am on the 4.5.07. (Sunday Times 16.12.07) that the crime scene was contaminated in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance (reported by Kate McCann at 10.15pm 3.5.07.) and that the crime scene was not sealed (apartment 5a was subsequently let out to two other families before August) there was evidence that an intruder had entered the room: 1) Gerry McCann reported that when he went into check on his children just after 9.00pm the bedroom door was open at an angle of 45 degrees instead of being slightly ajar; 2) Kate McCann reported that the bedroom shutters were open as she entered the children's bedroom at around 10.15 - her attention was drawn to this because the children's bedroom door slammed shut before she entered the room; 3) Madeleine's clear imprint on her bedclothes indicated that she had been lifted straight out of bed - if she had tried to get out herself the clothes would have been disturbed; 4) '24 Horas' on the 1.6.07. reported that DNA from a 'mysterious' sixth person had been recovered from Madeleine's room and had been sent to the 'Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal.' Their account included the following piece of PJ gibberish: "It is an important step in the investigation but the truth is that the DNA collected does not have a name. In other words we cannot make any connection between the material collected and the suspects which we already have;" 5) 'The Daily Telegraph' of the 20.8.07. reported that the niece of a resident in the flat above where the McCanns were staying, 'saw a suspicious-looking man hanging around the McCanns' apartment about the time Madeleine vanished. She has spoken to British police and told them that he matched the description of a suspect seen leaving the scene with a child wrapped up in a blanket on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.' Mrs Fenn also said that in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance she scared off an intruder in her apartment. There was no apparent sign of a break-in and it is thought the man may have had a key to let himself into the flat. There was also another burglary in the complex a few weeks before in which police also suspected the intruder had a key; Mrs Fenn's niece, aware that merely spotting 'Bundleman' would land her in front of the beak, wisely remains anonymous. 6) The Daily Mirror had this report on the infamous stairwell man: "An employee at the Ocean Club resort spotted the stocky man in glasses (other newspaper reports say light sensitive sunglasses) just twelve metres from the flat. The worker told the Daily Mirror: "It was around 6pm on the day the little girl went missing. "I saw this Englishman (other accounts described him as an English tourist) standing under the stairwell. "He was round-faced and stocky, wearing light clothes and positioned so that he was monitoring the car park area, stairs and elevator. He was hiding and watching what was going on. I didn't see him at first. I was collecting some linen, bent down to pick it up and nearly bumped into him. "We gave each other a big fright and both jumped back. We moved aside for each other. But he didn't move away." This chap is half Portuguese apparently and therefore unlikely to have developed a stairwell lurking addiction. All this is the absolute tip of a very big iceberg of evidence. I could fill pages with this kind of stuff but no one here would read it. She must have been kidnapped by Moroccan paedophiles. The McCanns are not on record as stating that Morrocan paedophiles abducted Madeleine. The McCanns holiday companions have few illusions though about who they think was involved. I would suggest that it is reasonable to assume that the McCanns share their friends' suspicions. Telling, don't you think 1444ry, that your blogger (like most in the media) shrinks from fingering the most likely suspects? Why are they protecting them? They have two witness statements one from Jeremy Wilkins, who it was talking to Gerry McCann, and another from an unnamed Irish teenage girl; both say that neither Tanner or the phantom were on the path when she claims. 'They?' Who are 'they?' If you mean the Portimao pig-plods you is WRONG sonny Jim. Jes Wilkins wasn't even asked for a statement by Portuguese police (read his wife's account of their stay at the Mark Warner resort in The Guardian 14.12.07). He was only asked for a statement by police in the UK. Jes Wilkins' not very tasty wife Bridget O'Donnell would be enough to make most men flee with a buggy into the darkness. As for the Irish teenager she was not only unnamed she was also unregistered at the Mark Warner resort - so it seems we have a 'phantom' eye witness too (neither Wilkins nor McCann reported seeing her). But even if she really exists and she really didn't see what she really didn't see it matters not - she sees or she doesn't see only with her own eyes, not with anyone else's. Wilkin's - it is alleged - stated that the path upon which he and Gerry McCann were standing was too narrow for anyone to pass them unnoticed (ie Jane Tanner). But according to Panorama's reconstruction Tanner passed them ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROAD. Bearing in mind that it was dark (9.15pm) and that they were both engrossed in conversation their REPORTED claim they did not see her does not destroy her credibility (which would have been shot had she failed to spot THEM). In a recent poll seven out of ten sad old men said Jane Tanner was fit enough to notice on the other side of the road. Tanner claims to have spotted 'Bundleman' as she was approaching the entrance to the apartments (about 50 metres up from where McCann and Wilkins were talking). 'Bundleman' was crossing the same road (neither walking nor running) at the T junction at the top (c. 50 metres from her and 100 metres from McCann and Wilkins). He was probably in view for between 5-10 seconds so it's hardly surprising that M&W didn't spot him. Tanner's account is the nearest that we have to unmediated testimony. One more oddity. Wilkins was, according to most accounts, out walking his baby son in a buggy at the time of his encounter with Gerry McCann. Tanner didn't mention this on Panorama. Many reports cite that Gerry McCann didn't mention it either. You would have thought that the PJ would have seized upon this to rubbish M&W's (and Tanner's) claim that they bumped into each other that evening. Seems like the PJ desperately need the M&W encounter though to discredit Tanner. Like Stef and 1444ry, it seems that the PJ want to have their cake and eat it. That would be enough to charge Tanner with peverting the course of justice in the UK. Even if she were the only person in a crowd of 100 in Surbiton to have spotted 'Bundleman' she wouldn't be charged with wasting police time let alone the legislation cited. In normal circumstances, the McCanns would have been charged with their daughter’s killing In normal circumstances prevailing under a Nazi, Fascist, Communist or other unspecified totalitarian regime or corrupt liberal bourgeois democracy the McCanns would have been forced to confess to infanticide in one or more improbable, conflicting scenarios (over sedation and/or fall, refrigeration and/or temproary internment of remains, disposal at sea and/or transportation of corpse by car, with or without accessories after the fact etc etc) that were completely uncorroborated by any forensic evidence or eyewitness testimony because the circumstantial evidence (ie that the parents shared the same appartment as their children) would, of course, be overwhelming. The Portuguese prosecutor has admitted that his decision to let them leave the country was taken to avoid a diplomatic incident with the British government. Was this the same prosecutor who was widely reported as saying that the PJ didn't have a case against the McCanns? If Gordon Brown's recent treatment of his new found friend is anything to go by I don't think a diplomatic incident would have been one of the PM's priorities. Unless all those funny people who live near the river (who have been manufacturing so much trouble for him of late) made it so. Like most Prime Ministers, Gordon Brown doesn't find the 'funny people' funny. The Portuguese police were understandable (sic) furious since this was clearly a political decision and they intended to charge Kate McCann. No, let's be specific, the PJ wanted Kate McCann to confess to the 'accidental killing' of Madeleine. As they were not in a position to beat the crap out of her to accomplish this (as they were with Leonor Cipriano) they tried instead to get her to plea bargain (through her lawyer after her interrogation in Portimao). She refused to plead guilty to 'accidental killing' (something akin to manslaughter I guess) in exchange for a two year sentence. PS Worth noting that it was the 'over sedation' angle that pig-plods Goncalo Amaral and co were coming from here. Just as well the hair analysis tests (done through Kingsley Napley solicitors and almost certainly carried out by 'Tricho Tech' - see Sunday Times 21.10.07) performed on Madeleine's twin siblings proved negative for sedatives, 1444ry, otherwise we 'd have a miscarriage of justice on our hands wouldn't we now eh? They have no automatic powers to re-interview the McCanns or their friends The PJ have no automatic powers to re interview in the UK. But it's the same for any foreign police force. What is interesting here is the way the PJ exaggerate the obstructiveness of international protocols and their own internal bureaucracy. Six months to acquire the necessary letters of permission - give me abreak! In any case all this is immaterial as both the McCanns and other members of the 'Tapas Seven' have VOLUNTEERED to go back to Portimao to be re-interviewed (eg Jane Tanner, Panorama BBC1 19.11.07). But the PJ are not interested. Why? Because they have no control over the case. So, who does? The Portuguese police have been forced to wait on further forensic results from the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham, those results have been inexplicably delayed Unless they had other compelling eye witness/circumstantial evidence or a confession any police force would have to wait for the results of forensic tests before charging a suspect. It is most unlikely that the FFS's RESULTS have been delayed if the report in the last edition of The Sunday Times (16.12.07) is to be believed. It is their full public disclosure that is being delayed, perhaps permanently (the rumour mill has it pretty well nem con that the results are inconclusive). This is a subject I will return too... the current Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary put pressure on the Portuguese government To do what exactly? Under Portuguese law the McCanns could still return to the UK even as arguidos. I notice that Brown's and Miliband's representations have neither altered the McCann's status nor led to more concerted attempts by the PJ to pursue other more probable suspects. And if recent press accounts are anything to go by it seems that Gordon and Gerry are not as chummy as you make out. Apparently, direct contact between Downing Street and Rothley was severed when the McCanns were declared arguidos. The government's response to this crisis has been remarkably low key - no summons to the Foreign Office of the Portuguee ambasador, no public criticism of the Portuguese criminal justice system. Dear old John Buck is the only senior official I kinow of to date who has made anything remotely approaching a diplomatic protest. And what happened? He was recalled and replaced as our ambassador in Lisbon by Alex Ellis. Almost makes one pine for the halcyon days of economic sanctions... Ol' Palmerston's favourite diplomatic gambit was to talk to the other side only after his gunboats blew them up. the Foreign Office also lent the McCanns the despicable Clarence Mitchell, Mitchell was director of the Governments' Media Monitoring Unit within the Central Office of Information (to all intents a SPecial ADvisor or SPAD). He was seconded to the Foreign Office who requested that he go to Portugal to liaise between the McCanns and the media (ie pass information on to Whitehall mandarins). In September he reisigned from the MMU and now works full time for the McCanns. Bright eyed and bushy tailed Clarence Mitchell no longer snoozes through his 3.00am bulletin on BBC News 24. the McCanns have been able to hire the Government's favoured mercenaries, ICG. Not something they would do for every Labour Party activist, You really do have profund difficulties don't you, 1444ry? The organisation you/Stef refer/s to is properly addressed as 'Control Risks Group' (CRG). It is a limited company (founded in 1975 as a subsidiary of Hogg Robinson) that offers a wide range of (spooky) services to corporates as well as the general public. How much real help it is offering the McCanns is open to debate. I suspect that it is offering more assistance to our dark actor friends. the McCann's hire-car travelled 1700km between 27th May and 3rd July and they have not satisfactorally accounted for this. That, according to 'Correio de Manha' should read 2750 Kilometres and the 3rd August when, (we are expected to suspend our disbelief) the McCanns either dug up Madeleine's remains buried in the churchyard at 'Nossa Senhora da Luz' or removed them from a freezer unit at the Mark Warner resort and then deposited them in the boot of the Scenic before (re) interment en route (or on the way back from) Huelva City in Southern Spain (where they were scheduled to make an appeal). The versatile Scenic - Praia da Luz Borough Council have leased several to serve in their hearse fleet. HERE ENDETH THE LESSON What I find particularly irksome about all of the extracts above is that there is absolutely no sense whatever that virtually all of the charges described against the McCanns were fabricated by Goncalo Amaral and fed by him to the Portuguese press in violation of Portuguese judicial secrecy laws - a practice that was later cited as the principal reason for his dismisal from the investigation. But worse, much worse than this, is the highly illiberal, almost fascistic tone of the accuser. Can't you see what a monster you have become 1444ry?

Certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack Mr Zingari - apologies if it caused you any offence. At the time of viewing, the reason for your reference to Madeleine's 'coloboma' wasn't at all clear to me and the Saturday night ale didn't help. Nightguard - you are right to conclude that the McCanns were desperately unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Madeleine's case is undoubtedly one of child abduction and she could well have been taken by a paedophile or a gang that procures for paedophile rings. But I suspect (with good reason) that there is something much bigger behind all this. And I am certain that one of the motives of this much bigger hidden presence is to generate all the wild media speculation surrounding the case that we see, hear and read virtually every day - the type of counter intuitive guff that challenges the rational mind but appeals to unreconstructed class bigots like 1444ry. Rest assured folks, before the day is out good ship 'Chandler' will hole 1444ry's latest contributions below the water line and consign them to the bottom of Cultural Cringe swamp.