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David Guiza

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David Guiza last won the day on 8 November 2019

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About David Guiza

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  1. I keep meaning to log out and stop looking at this topic as it's turned into a veggie v meat eater debate that all topics of these sorts do, but then I read things that drag me back in. One last reply for the road anyway. I've never really understood this argument. I think every vegan with a brain cell understands that would be the case, but since when is that a valid argument? That relies on the argument that being born to live an awful life and be slaughtered is better than no life for starters, which is rocky ground. I've always viewed that argument as the equivalent of arguing that prostitution should be opened out as a viable career opportunity because it creates jobs, or justifying slave breeding because folk need slaves. There are some justifiable arguments against veganism, but this aint one of 'em.
  2. Nobody has claimed that it is meat carrying the virus, have they? If that's how my post comes across then I apologise but for me there are two issues. The first issue is in terms of the factories and their conditions. We tend to hide our heads in the sand when it comes to food standards and meat in this country on the basis that because we're not as bad as China or whoever, we don't have an issue. Clearly the conditions are helping keep the disease alive and spread in certain situations. Were you to eat high quality and organic meat, as @Kopfkino and others have alluded to, then it's far less of an issue. I would however guess that the vast majority of meat consumption in this country isn't in that form though, and it is in fact from the sort of factories that have had these outbreaks. Were the vast majority of meat eaters to eat local, good quality, meat and in less quantity then you would still have an ethical debate, but both the disease risk and the impact on the environment would be substantially lowered. The second issue is the amount of disease that animals carry, which links back to the first point. According to this article - https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/05/09/preventing-another-pandemic-might-be-as-simple-as-trying-alternative-meat/#1c47d7372c33, which cites this study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367616/ - three quarters of all human emerging diseases have come about from zoonotic pathogens (animal to human), including swine fever, mad cow disease and ebola. I'm far from an expert on the subject, but lessening meat consumption would surely be a positive in preventing that? I appreciate it's not for everyone, and I'm not here to change your mind but merely to have a discussion .
  3. Appreciate the sentiment, but there are countless reasons why somebody might call themselves a vegetarian and not a vegan. I am practically vegan but I don't particularly like the term because of all that comes with it. I also would find it a little hypocritical to call myself one if I were to eat even the tiniest amount of dairy, for the same reason that I wouldn't call somebody who had sex once a decade a virgin. Meat farming is bad for the environment - Some people become vegetarian because they care about the ethics, but don't have the will power to give up dairy, so what? Yes it would hypocritical if this was their circumstances, but lectured their peers on animal cruelty, but most veggies just get on with their lives, same as meat eaters. Meat is less healthy - I would suggest that very few people give up meat for health reasons but continue to consume dairy, and even then it's about moderation. There's disease in processing plants - I don't think many or even any have given up meat as a result of this, and if they did then that's their prerogative. Air travel is a fear of thousands of people even though it's completely safe on the main, but if travelling by car/train makes somebody feel more at ease or somebody feels safer from giving up meat as a result of this then what's the issue? I don't like meat - yeah well I don't like apples but I don't feel the need to signal it to everyone by giving myself a special title - The most bizarre of all your arguments. Not eating an entire food group that is present in almost every supermarket, cafe, restaurant, services, is a little different to not liking apples. I dare say that somebody who does not like apples has never had to avoid a particular restaurant because they serve exclusively apple based dishes? I get your point in that the veggies who are trying to induce guilt in meat eaters are somewhat hypocritical given that the dairy industry is an awful thing, but on the whole most veggies/vegans keep it to themselves and are just trying to limit their impact on the environment/animal cruelty wherever possible. It's impossible to be completely virtuous in life, but I admire those who do what they can without limiting their enjoyment completely. I'm sure you have things that you feel passionately about that conflict with other interests you have. That's completely fair enough, the transition from meat eater to veggie/vegan/pescatarian or whatever it may is easier than it ever has been in the west, but it's still a big change and even more so the longer you have been a meat eater. Not that I am being age discriminatory . I would likely still be a meat eater now if it wasn't for moving in with my now wife, she never for one moment set out to convert me, not all vegans/veggies are militant in their desire to convert, it just came naturally because she does the majority of the cooking and I began to read more on the subject. You're always welcome round for a lentil bolognese, Alf! There seems to be little to no evidence of meat to human transmission, but that's not to say an increase in zoonotic diseases (a new word I learnt today) may increase the chance that a deadly virus passing that way in future. That is of course conjecture, but relying on meat being properly cooked all the time isn't ideal. There's an interesting article on zoonotic disease on National Geographic if you have the time - https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2020/04/how-do-infections-coronavirus-jump-animals-people As an animal rights advocate, and just as somebody who doesn't want another global pandemic, I do hope this disease changes the outlook on things like wet markets and beyond, but capitalism and profits suggests that we will likely return to old ways as has already been reported in China so far as I'm aware.
  4. I agree that there are countless instances where decisions have to be made and there is a clear pecking order for human life (much like the Trolley Problem scenario), but my point was more around ethics and philosophy than day to day life. The OP said that 'the victims of the attacks in Reading were far superior people who added more to society than George Floyd, who was a criminal' (well I had to edit the original post, which made no sense) which, to me, suggested that the fact Floyd had past convictions meant that he shouldn't be mourned in the way that the victims of the Reading attacks should be, in spite of the fact that the second victim had only been named a number of hours previously. I find that notion senseless as, to me, Floyd's life was no more or less important than those tragic victims of Saturday. All three victims had a right to life and had that unjustly taken away from them. Perhaps I could have phrased my response better, but that's effectively my point. Appreciate the sentiment, but I'm not saying that a ruthless killer shouldn't be stopped on the basis that their life is sacrosanct. As with the aforementioned Trolley Problem scenario, If the life of somebody can be taken to save the lives of others then It's a worthwhile decision. In terms of somebody like Hitler, as with Bin Laden, I would have preferred that, if safe and possible, they were taken alive. That is more down to being a believer that you can extract far more from a person alive then dead. Killing them is nothing more than retaliation. I don't think, as a society, we can proclaim what is right and wrong if we take a human's life away because we deem them not worthy, but then punish others for taking life away. To me there is a world of difference between an instinctive reaction to kill in order to save lives, than to kill for punishment. Ethics and morality are complex and full of what ifs and hypocritical elements though. I am a firm believer in the right to abortions and one could argue that said belief is contrary what I've said above, but I'm as fickle and hypocritical as anybody the next guy.
  5. That's effectively the conversation I was hoping to get across, along with the risk of an increase in disease from the There have been plenty of topics on here in the past that have centered around veggies/meat eaters arguing the toss. My question was intended to be about whether the potential for further outbreak from poor conditions and bad practice in the meat industry, something that is far more likely with meat and dairy than any other food, has changed peoples perception and even made them cut down. It's unfortunately just one of those topics that gets peoples backs up sometimes. As an aside I'm pleased to see your transition is going well. I know a lot of it is tongue in cheek, but the perception that a vegan diet is boring is a little tiresome. I have eaten a far more varied diet as a veggie/vegan than I ever did as a meat eater simply because I had to, I also consume far more fruit and vegetables than I ever used to also.
  6. Suspect you may have replied before my latter response, but the issue I was raising was the fact that meat factories and the like have been likened to incubators for the disease. But yes, of course the factory conditions is something that needs to be addressed too, both from an ethical point of view and to prevent the spread of the/any disease. Genuinely had no idea that 'breading' was a word until you pointed that out, every day is a school day As above, in response to Alf, some articles make reference to meat factories effectively acting as incubator for the disease. Sure that's largely down to the environment of the factories themselves, but it's also down to what meat is. Some of the articles also have experts suggesting that further outbreaks are likely from meat too. The idea of the topic was just to see if people had changed their opinions on meat consumption and would they change further if concrete evidence was found, I didn't advocate that the whole world goes vegan. Despite the stereotype, I'm not somebody who mentions by dietary habits to every Tom, Dick and Harry, I just thought it was relevant given that the topic was literally about diets. The vast majority of my friends and family are meat eaters and it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I'd be quite the hypocrite to call people out for eating meat when I did so for the first 23/24 years of my life. I didn't want the topic to turn into an argument between veggies/vegans and meat eaters, but rather a discussion on whether one's perception has or will change as a result of this 'new world' that has been born out of the post lockdown world.
  7. 1. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/revealed-meat-processing-plants-ideal-incubator-coronavirus/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-53105266 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53131765 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/19/three-meat-factories-in-england-and-wales-closed-over-coronavirus https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/21/growing-global-appetite-meat-risk-future-spillover-pandemics/ https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/4/22/21228158/coronavirus-pandemic-risk-factory-farming-meat https://theconversation.com/bushmeat-could-cause-the-next-global-pandemic-136657 https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/05/09/preventing-another-pandemic-might-be-as-simple-as-trying-alternative-meat/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/22/doctors-urge-uk-go-vegan-avoid-future-pandemic-12738682/ 2. As above, they are seen as a breeding ground for the disease and potentially other bacteria too. 3.
  8. Respectfully disagree. I certainly believe that one could propose that X person is better than Y person as a result of giving more back to society etc, but I don't think one can say X person's life is more important than Y as that opens the door to a myriad of issues both ethically and philosophically. I also accept that someones life can mean way more than somebody else's subjectively, but I don't think that matters objectively. It's part of the reason that I'm against the death penalty, because it's so 'final'. I don't think a state can proclaim that human life is sacrosanct if they are willing to end somebody's life as a punishment. For that reason, among others, I don't think we can say that X person's life is worth more than the life of Y. I've also never understood any religious people who believe in the death penalty or proclaim that somebody is 'better' than another, because any religious scripture that I've read generally states that we are all equal and worthy. Suicide was illegal as recently as 50/60 years ago because the state believed that all life was precious and nobody had the right to give that up themselves though they did think that the state could do so which is a whole different issue altogether . There is also so much complexity to human life and action. The reason as to why we do things and how we end up in certain situations comes about as a result of millions of possibilities that lead to said event. Sure some people are out and out 'bad', but many just do bad things as a result of circumstance and bad fortune. An argument could also be made that many people only do good things for selfish reasons. If we accept that both of those points are true, then is it fair to say that X person has a better right to life than Y, simply because one did a 'bad' thing and the other did a 'good' thing? That's not to mention the concept of free will and questioning if human beings can be held responsible for their actions at all .
  9. Are you auditioning for the vacant role of Katie Hopkins? Why are you weighing up the worth of murder victims against each other? Firstly, if you are a believer in fundamental human rights then you would respect the notion that no human life is worth more than another, regardless of their past. Secondly, the protests in the wake of the killing of George Floyd are about systematic racism, police brutality, equality etc, his killing was just another senseless loss of life in a long line of awful events. The protests are not for any single man, woman, or child, but for everyone. Congrats anyway, I gave you a slice of that attention that you were clearly so desperately craving for your post.
  10. As there seems to be increasing links between meat farms/factories/markets and coronavirus, both domestically and across the world, has your opinion on meat consumption changed at all, and would you consider giving meat up altogether if concrete evidence were found between the two? Do you think that our food standards are significantly better than places like China and consequently there's far less of an issue here? Perhaps you're aware of the risk, but nothing is worth giving up meat for? It's all hypothetical at this point, of course, but numerous studies predicted some sort of animal based outbreak prior to this, and have not ruled out future and perhaps even more deadly outbreaks from a similar source. I'm a veggie and try to eat vegan whenever I can, same with a few posters on here I think. I've only been veggie for about 5 years and there was certainly a time when I'd have laughed at the suggestion that I'd even consider it once or twice a week, but there's not really anything I miss about it now, particularly thanks to a huge increase in veggie/vegan alternatives in supermarkets/restaurants, cafes etc. This isn't a pressure group aimed at converting the masses, honest , I just thought it would make for an interesting topic.
  11. Always frustrating to throw away a lead that late on, but a point away at a side scrapping for their lives isn't the worst result in the world. Particularly when it's the first game in 3 months and your nearest rival only managed a point the day before. Even just 3 wins from the remaining 8 games would leave our rivals needing to win 6 out of 8 games. Frustrating but not a disaster.
  12. I'd also not be able to name those guys! My wife challenged me to name ten 19th century writers. I got to 9 and then panicked and said Jack Kerouac and realised that it was the equivalent of her naming Callum Best.
  13. There's always at least one that blows your mind. Where on earth has pulled that from? Love Quickly Kevin by the way, great pod! Some serious questions to be asked when I get home
  14. Not a bad effort, I'd have lost my head if my other half began with Ruud Gullit Your other half's effort reminded me that mine attempted to give Callum Best as a legitimate answer. She also once got Babe Ruth as an answer on University Challenge, which has lead to suspect that she's having an affair with a much older man with a passion for wartime baseball.
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