The Only Gay In The Vickarage

[Daggers]

i think these questions should be asked to gay people, because gay footballers DO have the RIGHT to do these things but choose not to; somehow the onus has shifted to the rest of us to positively encourage them .

there seems to be confusion between a right to do something, and a persons choice not to take this up.

so imo the ball is in the court of gays whether to face up to their own sexuality or not .

I'm not sure that's true.

I think that is an acceptable point if we were dealing with a level playing field. I mean to say, just look at the attention Colleen gets - now imagine if she were Colin? Colleen is told she is very pretty by the Sun, who love to know whose handbag she is carrying. I wonder if they would treat a manbag in the same fashion?

I have not mentioned nor proposed that positive descrimination takes place - but I do wonder whether we should consider if our current behaviour encourages descrimination to take place. In that, one has to include players and spectators together.

Also, I would love to pose these questions to a gay football player ... but where is one?

"You can get drunk and beat up your wife and that's quite acceptable, but if someone were to say 'I'm gay', it's considered awful. It's ridiculous." Alan Smith, ex-Mgr of Palace

"Coming out could end a player's career and his life would be a misery." Tony Cascarino

I remember how Cloughie persecuted Fashanu for going to clubs, and how the first openly gay player was hounded to his death and ostracised by his brother. I'm pretty sure that players playing today are all to cogniscent of it and that it was this that informs their current actions.

Max Clifford has gone on record that he has been approached by clubs seeking to give certain players "a straight image".

This doesn't sound like a supportive atmosphere to me...

[macbeth]

I'm not sure that's true.

I think that is an acceptable point if we were dealing with a level playing field. I mean to say, just look at the attention Colleen gets - now imagine if she were Colin? Colleen is told she is very pretty by the Sun, who love to know whose handbag she is carrying. I wonder if they would treat a manbag in the same fashion?

I have not mentioned nor proposed that positive descrimination takes place - but I do wonder whether we should consider if our current behaviour encourages descrimination to take place. In that, one has to include players and spectators together.

Also, I would love to pose these questions to a gay football player ... but where is one?

I remember how Cloughie persecuted Fashanu for going to clubs, and how the first openly gay player was hounded to his death and ostracised by his brother. I'm pretty sure that players playing today are all to cogniscent of it and that it was this that informs their current actions.

Max Clifford has gone on record that he has been approached by clubs seeking to give certain players "a straight image".

This doesn't sound like a supportive atmosphere to me...

gayness is being accepted by "degrees" and yes soccer does seem to be a few years behind the rest of society but i still believe the onus is on gays to live their own life as normal couples ( neither flaunting nor hiding their sexuality)

those quotes you use do seem to be quite old so i can only assume that things must be changing in present day players/managers attitudes

as for the press attention given to wags; i think that only reflects on celeb obsessed media and if i were a famous persons gay lover i think i could live without the focus on me; women in fashion always have more of the spotlight . to prove it try and name 1 male model .whereas most could name a dozen female models.

i believe some battles need to be fought by the individuals concerned not the rest of us.

[Daggers]

i still believe the onus is on gays to live their own life as normal couples ( neither flaunting nor hiding their sexuality)

Wouldn't disagree with you there - but I'd extend that to include EVERYONE. I don't want to see, hear about or hear couples coupling...err...unless it is in one of those DVD's.

those quotes you use do seem to be quite old so i can only assume that things must be changing in present day players/managers attitudes

But it isn't the case is it? Not one Premiership club returned a questionnaire sent regarding attitudes on homophobia within the game.

I think the only movement recently has been for Beckham and Ljungberg to become self confessed gay icons. A welcome public announcement of tollerance and acceptance I think but hardly a ground swell of understanding. Maybe?

I think that the recent announcement on Monday of "substancial libal damages" awarded in the Ashley Cole sex romp case (always refered to as a 'gay romp') displays the abject fear in the player of being called gay. How insecure in your sexuality must you need to be in order to take it to court?

But, also, what right have the Sun and the News of the World got to do this kind of expose? IF it had taken place it would have been an intimate act being carried out by consenting adults in private. They carry stories like this because the public that are into football want to have a laugh at the players expense. If there is another interpretation of this then I would love to hear it. Surely it is these attitudes that lock us away from an age of tollerance and elightenment?

if i were a famous persons gay lover i think i could live without the focus on me; women in fashion always have more of the spotlight . to prove it try and name 1 male model .whereas most could name a dozen female models.

Yup - but you name a famous British gay man and 5 will get you ten that his partner is regularly snapped walking with him. There is no option to be 'not famous' for those men.

i believe some battles need to be fought by the individuals concerned not the rest of us.

I understand what you are saying, but doesn't inequality concern all of us? Isn't it up to society as a whole to form itself into the image of its desires? Surely it is beholden on the individuals in society to enforce norms, tollerance and understanding based on acceptance of the individuals right to say or do what they please as long as it displays respect for the rest of society?

If not, if we are a society where everyone else has to sort out their own problems and no one else cares then what a sad place it would be.

[Swedging]

The comparison is in the discomfort felt not between homosexuals and someone who fancied PP-girls.

The lists were only of others who might fancy a socio/political campaign - I could have mentional animal rights organisations, Keep Britain Tidy, Real Ale groups but it was using football to campaign on sexuality which was under discussion.

Oddly though, your comparison each time is first with paedophilia - announcing being a gayer is linked with announcing being a nonce. For fux sake, if you're a wordsmith, think about what you're writing.

[Guest]

I think it's a sad indictment of society that people feel that they have to hide certain aspects of their lives for fear of negative judgment. It's not just sexuality, spirituality is another one.

Like I said before, it's ignorance and fear that does it.

Personally, if I see a tabloid running an exposé, I worry. The hysteria surrounding these 'outings' only seeks to fuel the fire, and unfortunately people are happy to let the media do their thinking for them (sweeping generalisation alert!).

[Thracian]

Wouldn't disagree with you there - but I'd extend that to include EVERYONE. I don't want to see, hear about or hear couples coupling...err...unless it is in one of those DVD's.

But it isn't the case is it? Not one Premiership club returned a questionnaire sent regarding attitudes on homophobia within the game.

I think the only movement recently has been for Beckham and Ljungberg to become self confessed gay icons. A welcome public announcement of tollerance and acceptance I think but hardly a ground swell of understanding. Maybe?

I think that the recent announcement on Monday of "substancial libal damages" awarded in the Ashley Cole sex romp case (always refered to as a 'gay romp') displays the abject fear in the player of being called gay. How insecure in your sexuality must you need to be in order to take it to court?

But, also, what right have the Sun and the News of the World got to do this kind of expose? IF it had taken place it would have been an intimate act being carried out by consenting adults in private. They carry stories like this because the public that are into football want to have a laugh at the players expense. If there is another interpretation of this then I would love to hear it. Surely it is these attitudes that lock us away from an age of tollerance and elightenment?

Yup - but you name a famous British gay man and 5 will get you ten that his partner is regularly snapped walking with him. There is no option to be 'not famous' for those men.

I understand what you are saying, but doesn't inequality concern all of us? Isn't it up to society as a whole to form itself into the image of its desires? Surely it is beholden on the individuals in society to enforce norms, tollerance and understanding based on acceptance of the individuals right to say or do what they please as long as it displays respect for the rest of society?

If not, if we are a society where everyone else has to sort out their own problems and no one else cares then what a sad place it would be.

Somewhere you've been got at. Do you still not understand?. I don't want to be formed into a sodding image - not of your desires, "society's" desires, the Government's desires, the media's desires, anyone's desires.

I loathe the word image - by its very definition it smacks of appearance rather than reality.

It is harder and harder to do with the intrusion into peoples lives today but I would rather be me - the character formed by my own experience and judgement.

The very idea of "enforcing norms", is, as I've mentioned before, standard practice in communist doctrine (despite everyone equal not equatting to everyone's the same) and I don't want any part of it, thanks.

Alongside "image" I hate the word "enforce" and the words "norms" is no better.

How does tolerance and understanding go with the words "enforce norms"?

If society can offer a potential solution to perceived problems and people choose to be helped I see nothing wrong with that but forcing "society" solutions on anyone is entirely different. Since when did one person or one group of people have the right to take over my decision making?.

Much is done to diminish freedom but little to advance it yet freedom is precious and, far from attempt being made to socially duplicate people, it is the differences which make us more interesting.

It is ironic how so many people talk of tolerating all peoples and of "equal opportunity" but then of "enforcing norms" and "forming images".

How the hell "equal opportunity" and "positive discrimination" go together anyway, I've no idea, but "equal opportunity to be yourself rather than some society's image ought to be top of the list when, eventually, wise society even learns exactly what equal opportunity means which it certainly doesn't right now.

Maybe one day we'll have a movement for freedom (if there is one it doesn't seem very effective).

It is a completely different debate but one that might be enlightening considering how many freedoms we don't have.

For instance: Freedom to travel anywhere in the world.

It doesn't exist. It is a freedom that has been lost.

[Daggers]

Somewhere you've been got at. Do you still not understand?. I don't want to be formed into a sodding image - not of your desires, "society's" desires, the Government's desires, the media's desires, anyone's desires.

I loathe the word image - by its very definition it smacks of appearance rather than reality.

It is harder and harder to do with the intrusion into peoples lives today but I would rather be me - the character formed by my own experience and judgement.

The very idea of "enforcing norms", is, as I've mentioned before, standard practice in communist doctrine (despite everyone equal not equatting to everyone's the same) and I don't want any part of it, thanks.

Alongside "image" I hate the word "enforce" and the words "norms" is no better.

How does tolerance and understanding go with the words "enforce norms"?

If society can offer a potential solution to perceived problems and people choose to be helped I see nothing wrong with that but forcing "society" solutions on anyone is entirely different. Since when did one person or one group of people have the right to take over my decision making?.

Much is done to diminish freedom but little to advance it yet freedom is precious and, far from attempt being made to socially duplicate people, it is the differences which make us more interesting.

It is ironic how so many people talk of tolerating all peoples and of "equal opportunity" but then of "enforcing norms" and "forming images".

How the hell "equal opportunity" and "positive discrimination" go together anyway, I've no idea, but "equal opportunity to be yourself rather than some society's image ought to be top of the list when, eventually, wise society even learns exactly what equal opportunity means which it certainly doesn't right now.

Maybe one day we'll have a movement for freedom (if there is one it doesn't seem very effective).

It is a completely different debate but one that might be enlightening considering how many freedoms we don't have.

For instance: Freedom to travel anywhere in the world.

It doesn't exist. It is a freedom that has been lost.

Firstly, thank you for your apology for being offensive Thracian, humility and politeness are very fine attributes.

You live in a society and societies exist based on membership. Membership of societies are allowed based on the observance of collective norms - whether you like the word or not. For someone so keen on using paedophilia at every opportunity, that is a prime example of how societies enforce norms - it is currently unacceptable to have sex with a minor although if we drift back a couple of hundred years or so then we discover that it was customary to form relationship at the age of 11 or 12. Go back four to five hundred years and couples would be married by then. The norms of a society shift with societies perceptions of itself and its aspirations.

To enforce norms, again I hope you read this carefully rather than reacting as a Sun reader to a Paedo-Out campaign, society uses written and unwritten laws. For example, FoxesTalk utilises moderators [fine upstanding citizens all ] to monitor your posts...I take it that your proposal is that you can say and do what you like in the name of "freedom" and the rest of the world be damned. The use of the term 'enforce' does not mean detention camps - it covers every action within society. You will have enforced rules in your house with a little cough at times when raising your children - did they complain of the fascist dictatorship they lived under when you did so? I doubt it.

You would rather be you? I fail to grasp who is stopping you being you, unless the you that you want to be is illegal? No one has told you to be anything other in this thread Thracian - and I would not presume to dictate to you how you should live your life beyond requesting that you respect the rights of others at the same time. In my prevous reply to you I asked that you maintain a modicum of civility when replying to my posts and avoid vitriolic invective. Does this mean I am stopping you being you?

Tollerance and understanding are values, and these are valued within 'our' society. Depending on the subject, the degree to which both are enforced at any particular moment depends on the individual, the subject and the situation. Enforcement, as I have said, is the imposition of a collective set of values.

You are right in one respect, Marx believed society to be a construct of a 'ruling class' - so there is your communist angle. Personally, I do not agree with this definition but you are welcome to subscribe to it if you wish, I subscribe more to 'Symbolic Interactionism' and the 'Rational Choice Theory'.

I come back again to your point of being 'forced' to do things Thracian. You don't skip down the street naked every morning, although you know it would feel good, because of society's norms being enforced - people would stare and marvel. This is the enforcement of which I talk. There is no individual or small collective creating new ways in which to mess up the enjoyment in your life - society shifts its focus on a continual basis. Society no longer accepts that it is reasonable to have slaves, to discipline with corporal punishment or to use racist terms of abuse. These are large issue examples, but I think that you are refering to smaller scale ones, I don't know to be honest because you haven't given any examples.

Society is coming to accept that tollerance means everyone should be allowed to be free as long as they do not impose on others, I believe. I am at a loss to see how this diminishes your freedom.

Come to that, would you care to furnish me with your list of what freedoms you have lost? Indeed, what 'differences' (that you say make us so interesting) are being ironed out so that we are identikit people? What do you mean by a 'Movement for Freedom' come to that? You cite not being able to go anywhere you please - although I fear you are wrong again. Where can you not go to?

"How the hell "equal opportunity" and "positive discrimination" go together"? I don't know Thracian because no one has said they do. I believe, if you go back and have a look, I said I was NOT proposing positive discrimination. I have also clearly written that I am not proposing that something is forced onto anyone. Again, your diatribe is getting the better of me I am afraid.

So to finish, I hope that you go over what was originally posted and reconsider the questions and the arguments. I hope that you can either debate this matter in a cordial fashion or chose to desist as I have no desire to trade insults or point score with you. My intial point was to embark on an exploration into the issues surrounding the prevention of gay football players acting as homosexuals in the rest of society and I would welcome it if you had an insight into this. I hope you have a wonderful day, the sun is shining and tomorrow is the 1/4 final. I have no wish to fall out with you Thracian, I hope you understand this.

Peace.

[Ultra]

For instance: Freedom to travel anywhere in the world.

It doesn't exist. It is a freedom that has been lost.

How can it have been lost, when 99% of people on the planet never had it in the first place?

[Ultra]

Firstly, thank you for your apology for being offensive Thracian, humility and politeness are very fine attributes.

You live in a society and societies exist based on membership. Membership of societies are allowed based on the observance of collective norms - whether you like the word or not. For someone so keen on using paedophilia at every opportunity, that is a prime example of how societies enforce norms - it is currently unacceptable to have sex with a minor although if we drift back a couple of hundred years or so then we discover that it was customary to form relationship at the age of 11 or 12. Go back four to five hundred years and couples would be married by then. The norms of a society shift with societies perceptions of itself and its aspirations.

To enforce norms, again I hope you read this carefully rather than reacting as a Sun reader to a Paedo-Out campaign, society uses written and unwritten laws. For example, FoxesTalk utilises moderators [fine upstanding citizens all ] to monitor your posts...I take it that your proposal is that you can say and do what you like in the name of "freedom" and the rest of the world be damned. The use of the term 'enforce' does not mean detention camps - it covers every action within society. You will have enforced rules in your house with a little cough at times when raising your children - did they complain of the fascist dictatorship they lived under when you did so? I doubt it.

You would rather be you? I fail to grasp who is stopping you being you, unless the you that you want to be is illegal? No one has told you to be anything other in this thread Thracian - and I would not presume to dictate to you how you should live your life beyond requesting that you respect the rights of others at the same time. In my prevous reply to you I asked that you maintain a modicum of civility when replying to my posts and avoid vitriolic invective. Does this mean I am stopping you being you?

Tollerance and understanding are values, and these are valued within 'our' society. Depending on the subject, the degree to which both are enforced at any particular moment depends on the individual, the subject and the situation. Enforcement, as I have said, is the imposition of a collective set of values.

You are right in one respect, Marx believed society to be a construct of a 'ruling class' - so there is your communist angle. Personally, I do not agree with this definition but you are welcome to subscribe to it if you wish, I subscribe more to 'Symbolic Interactionism' and the 'Rational Choice Theory'.

I come back again to your point of being 'forced' to do things Thracian. You don't skip down the street naked every morning, although you know it would feel good, because of society's norms being enforced - people would stare and marvel. This is the enforcement of which I talk. There is no individual or small collective creating new ways in which to mess up the enjoyment in your life - society shifts its focus on a continual basis. Society no longer accepts that it is reasonable to have slaves, to discipline with corporal punishment or to use racist terms of abuse. These are large issue examples, but I think that you are refering to smaller scale ones, I don't know to be honest because you haven't given any examples.

Society is coming to accept that tollerance means everyone should be allowed to be free as long as they do not impose on others, I believe. I am at a loss to see how this diminishes your freedom.

Come to that, would you care to furnish me with your list of what freedoms you have lost? Indeed, what 'differences' (that you say make us so interesting) are being ironed out so that we are identikit people? What do you mean by a 'Movement for Freedom' come to that? You cite not being able to go anywhere you please - although I fear you are wrong again. Where can you not go to?

"How the hell "equal opportunity" and "positive discrimination" go together"? I don't know Thracian because no one has said they do. I believe, if you go back and have a look, I said I was NOT proposing positive discrimination. I have also clearly written that I am not proposing that something is forced onto anyone. Again, your diatribe is getting the better of me I am afraid.

So to finish, I hope that you go over what was originally posted and reconsider the questions and the arguments. I hope that you can either debate this matter in a cordial fashion or chose to desist as I have no desire to trade insults or point score with you. My intial point was to embark on an exploration into the issues surrounding the prevention of gay football players acting as homosexuals in the rest of society and I would welcome it if you had an insight into this. I hope you have a wonderful day, the sun is shining and tomorrow is the 1/4 final. I have no wish to fall out with you Thracian, I hope you understand this.

Peace.

Well said Disco.

[Daggers]

Well said Disco.

Thank you

[macbeth]

Thank you

hes got your dander right up hasn't he ? i'm not arguing with you

[Daggers]

hes got your dander right up hasn't he ?

You reckon? Once I find the word 'dander' in the dictionary I'll let you know ... and believe me, if it isn't nice then there'll be hell to pay.

I just hope it isn't painful ~ it's not like piles is it?

[macbeth]

You reckon? Once I find the word 'dander' in the dictionary I'll let you know ... and believe me, if it isn't nice then there'll be hell to pay.

I just hope it isn't painful ~ it's not like piles is it?

this can be you today don't bother looking up words

p.s. start the gladiator off on royalty

[Fez of Mahrez]

Anyone who gets in the middle of this is gonna feel like the Khyber Pass.

[macbeth]

Anyone who gets in the middle of this is gonna feel like the Khyber Pass.

on vindaloo night