'THE RULES ARE CHANGING'

[breadandcheese]

Rediculous to you, genuine incedents of wrong, to decent humanity.

The ill feeling from those living in britain, should occupy the minds of Iraqis and middle easterns, not muslims from anywhere in the world.

Are they british or muslim first? Seems to me to be the later, hardly credible ill feeling if there prepared to live in briton, is it.

161018[/snapback]

For all those who may want the answer to this question:

The two are not mutually exclusive, nor a competition. Both identities complement each other.

Lush, I hate the question you ask, precisely because it has been peddled by the far right for the last few centuries. It is an old question specifically designed to bracket and isolate a whole group into a them and us situation. It is a flawed logic that appeals only to morons.

[lush]

It's ridiculous that British muslims should have hard feelings over what is happeneing in Iraq, we've freed that country and saved many muslims from death, we may have killed innocent victims along the way but it's a hell of a lot less than what saddam would have, surely they realise that.

161022[/snapback]

Its a religious war. Muslims all over the world condem new labour and bush, not because their against war, but because their islamic country is being invaded, and more importantly, muslims are dieing. This has been going on for decades around the world, and the muslim hardliners, are fighting back, 9/11, 7/7 etc etc etc

Unfortunately, its a matter of time when islam is so big in europe, that major death occurs.

Take holland, 2 dutch born civilians were murdered because they dared critisize islam, IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, not saudi arabia, but holland, the liberal peace loving nation.

Im of the opinion that verses of the koran and qu`ran do not adhere to western culture, and amazingly last night on bbc panarama and on C4 with-in the last year, the truth about hardliners is being heard.

NO sensible person living on planet earth can adhere to hardline islam, and its being preached to thousands of people, who will literally give their lives to murder innocent people like you and me.

Scary, VERY scary.

[lush]

Lush, I hate the question you ask, precisely because it has been peddled by the far right for the last few centuries.  It is an old question specifically designed to bracket and isolate a whole group into a them and us situation.  It is a flawed logic that appeals only to morons.

161023[/snapback]

I hate to burst your hatred bubble of the far right, but as above, the liberals of channel 4 and bbc have also asked if their british or muslim first? Even the extreme far left fascist newspaper the guardian have asked it, so its all quarters of the political spectrum.

On another of my threads about islam, its stated by hardline muslims on newsnight, that islam is first 2nd and third, infact last isnt even british.

I would say most muslims atleast, consider themselves muslim before british.

Integration, not for them, but they cry at the west for not understanding them.

[breadandcheese]

I hate to burst your hatred bubble of the far right, but as above, the liberals of channel 4 and bbc have also asked if their british or muslim first? Even the extreme far left fascist newspaper the guardian have asked it, so its all quarters of the political spectrum.

On another of my threads about islam, its stated by hardline muslims on newsnight, that islam is first 2nd and third, infact last isnt even british.

I would say most muslims atleast, consider themselves muslim before british.

Integration, not for them, but they cry at the west for not understanding them.

161036[/snapback]

It is indeed a worry when supposed liberal newspapers ask the question. However the reason they ask the question is again due to a misunderstanding of the situation.

Those muslims who consider themselves 1st, 2nd, 3rd are politically & ideologically motivated (note: by islamism not islam). As such, they do not consider themselves British in nationality, but merely in geographical terms. This is similar to those British who do not consider themselves as national citizens of the European Union but merely in geographic terms. Thus asking those muslims who adher to the islamist ideology whether they are british or muslim, is mistaken.

Of course, there are muslims who consider themselves British muslims and not just muslims in Britain. These are those who are extremely valued to society and integrate in. Ask them if they are British or Muslim and they will respond that they are British and Muslims side by side.

It is of course impossible to tell who is an Islamist Muslim and who is just a Muslim. Therefore it is ridiculous to lump these two groups together and treat them as one homogenous group. That is where bigotry and prejudice creeps in.

[lush]

Your attempt to skip the issue is good b&c, but it didnt get by me.

The question to ALL people of the islamic faith in britain is:

Are you british or muslim, first?

[Ultra]

It's ridiculous that British muslims should have hard feelings over what is happeneing in Iraq, we've freed that country and saved many muslims from death, we may have killed innocent victims along the way but it's a hell of a lot less than what saddam would have, surely they realise that.

161022[/snapback]

Some VERY questionable assertions there Teeno.

Many Iraqis feel no more freedom under US/British rule than they did under Saddam!

[Rincewind]

Are you british or muslim, first?

Is the pope an Italian or Catholic first?

[Hullfox]

Are you british or muslim, first?

Is the pope an Italian or Catholic first?

162296[/snapback]

Errmmmm, he's German.

[Rincewind]

he lives in Italy, but that was not my point.

Islam is a faith/religion you live in a country. The two cannot be judged the same.

[lush]

Are you british or muslim, first?

Is the pope an Italian or Catholic first?

162296[/snapback]

Polish, but the pope isnt part of the question.

[lush]

he lives in Italy, but that was not my point.

Islam is a faith/religion you live in a country. The two cannot be judged the same.

162317[/snapback]

We all need to be british together (first), else we live seperately.

[lush]

A question of leadership

In this Sunday's Panorama Special, John Ware examines questions raised by senior members of the Muslim community themselves: Questions about the direction and role of the Muslim Council of Britain and the influences on the leadership of the organisation and its affiliates.

After 7/7 the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police said the Muslim community in Britain is "fairly close to denial about the extent of extremism in its midst."

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) is generally regarded as the community's main representative body. After meeting the Prime Minister at Downing Street, the Secretary General, Sir Iqbal Sacranie, promised that "the community is determined to deal with this issue head on."

Several prominent Muslims explain to Panorama why they believe the MCB is unlikely to meet this challenge at the moment. Indeed one of the founding members of the MCB tells us that "It is my personal belief... that they are in a state of denial."

Panorama examines the extent of Islamist ideology which some of the affiliates which make up the MCB have brought to Britain from Pakistan and the Middle East over the past forty years.

We show that beyond Iraq, even within some of the mainstream, there exists sectarianism, anti-Semitism, and a powerful conviction that Christians and Jews are conspiring to undermine Islam. Some MCB affiliates also promote the belief that Islam is a superior ideology to secular Britain.

In a wide-ranging interview with Sir Iqbal the discussion ranged from his views on the efforts to deal with extremism in some young British Muslims, to the Regent's Park mosque declaration on suicide bombings, to the rhetoric of some MCB affiliates, the relationship between religion and politics, as well as dealing with direct questions about suicide attacks and Sir Iqbal's views on the targeting of civilians around the world, including in Israel.

Despite some critical comments to the contrary, it is certainly not the case that nearly all the questioning of Sir Iqbal Sacranie was about Israel.

This programme went out last sunday. Theres usually a link on the website to watch the programme, but this time, as the presenter explains in video footage (see link "John Ware defends the investigation") to bbc news 24, that the muslim council of britain wrote to the bbc director of general using "very extreme language", accussing the bbc of being "pro-zionist".

John and the bbc try to point out, that the muslim council of britain (MCB) says that within the muslim community, are people that have "intolerance views of other faiths".

A huge slap on the back for John ware, may he be unleashed to progress his journalistic profession within the laws of our land, and to tell the truth about evil within the islamic community of britain, WITHOUT being threatened by extremists.

[Rincewind]

You missed the point again. Islam is a religion. British is a nationality. They do not go together or rate one above the other. Both are important to the individual and it unfair to ask them to put one above the other.

This has been explained in several posts and as you admit you are ignorant on the subject of religion you should take note and learn from those that know more on the subject than you.

[lush]

They do not go together.

Precisely, thats why we need a core belief, in order to integrate, your in favour of that arnt you?

The current core collective belief, in britishness. Now, are you suggesting that a different belief should interfear with that collective belief?

[Rincewind]

I give up. If you are going to quote me, please do not take what I put out of context

If you are going to comment agree or disagree on this. Say just yes or no to each.

Islam is a religion.

England is a country.

[lush]

We need a core belief, in order to integrate, your in favour of that arnt you?

The current core collective belief, in britishness. Now, are you suggesting that a different belief should interfear with that collective belief?

[Rincewind]

The core Religious belief (belief in a country does not count as a religion) at the moment is:

[lush]

The core Religious belief (belief in a country does not count as a religion) at the moment is:

What has religion got to do with what im asking?

[Rincewind]

This was your question.

Are they british or muslim first?

[lush]

So which one is it?

[Rincewind]

[lush]

So you`ve wasted all this time banging your head against the wall, and you had no idea which it was