Bomb blasters...

[Thracian]

Accepting that Islamic terrorism is attacking our very way of life and causing misery for people of all faiths (including Muslims) I wonder if anyone has any realistic ideas for restoring peaceful co-existence and preventing our society's values being neutralised by extremists.

My own ideas:

a) A proper national constitution declaring that the UK is a core Christian society which welcomes followers of other creeds/religions only on the basis that:

1) No-one physically or verbally threatens the security of the UK.

2) No-one engages in activity designed to attack or undermine the core-Christian values of the UK (such values to be defined but based on the Commandments).

3) Every non-ethnic resident of the UK is a guest subject to immediate discipline if they in any way threaten the Peace of co-existence in the UK.

4) All property owned by non-Christans in the UK shall be forfeit in the event of any offence against nos1/3.

5) All schools in the UK shall be multi-faith and lessons shall reflect our core-Christian values.

6) Anyone entering the UK illegally should be subject to the full force of the law without appeal if found guilty.

7)Anyone harbouring an illegal immigrant shall be subject to the full force of the law (without appeal if found guilty) and all their property shall be forfeit.

8)Anyone renting property to an illegal immigrant shall be subject similarly to no7.

9)Public religious gatherings for any religion shall be welcomed but their purpose should ONLY be for peaceful/spiritual/humanist purposes and should not in any way be the focus for undermining the nation's core Christian values.

10) No Parish/District/County Council in the UK shall be allowed more than 30 representation (in total) from non-Christian faiths and no-council may pass a proposal which in any way undermines the core-Christian values of the UK.

That'll be enough for now. I don't suggest the above is perfect. I don't suggest that Christianity is anything other than another religion with faults and much to answer for. But its Commandments form a decent basis for a Constitution and the above would do much, I believe, to ensure a peaceful society prepared to co-exist with people with other beliefs.

Core Christian values would have to be defined but perhaps based on:

No killing.

No stealing

No cheating

No intimidation

No bullying

No lying/misrepresentation

Equal rights for all men/women within the constitutional framework

No exploitation

Finally the law of the Land would be changed retrospectively to allow immediate solutions to be made for the dealing with illegal visitors presently on UK soil.

We would extract ourselves from current European Human Rights legislation, and any other legislation restricting our ability to Govern ourselves safely on the basis of a national emergency (until such time as the crisis is over and our new policies are being seen to have effect.

I know the above doesn't give us an entirely free democracy (where does such a system exist?) and I know that power bases will be disrupted but it does allow for the proper co-existence of all peoples and it does mean, for instance that we would never again put our soldiers into Iraq for instance.

But does the above have any basis as a reasonable way of defending our future?

[Thracian]

Accepting that Islamic terrorism is attacking our very way of life and causing misery for people of all faiths (including Muslims) I wonder if anyone has any realistic ideas for restoring peaceful co-existence and preventing our society's values being neutralised by extremists.

My own ideas:

a) A proper national constitution declaring that the UK is a core Christian society which welcomes followers of other creeds/religions only on the basis that:

1) No-one physically or verbally threatens the security of the UK.

2) No-one engages in activity designed to attack or undermine the core-Christian values of the UK (such values to be defined but based on the Commandments).

3) Every non-ethnic resident of the UK is a guest subject to immediate discipline if they  in any way threaten the Peace of co-existence in the UK.

4) All property owned by non-Christans in the UK shall be forfeit in the event of any offence against nos1/3.

5) All schools in the UK shall be multi-faith and lessons shall reflect our core-Christian values.

6) Anyone entering the UK illegally should be subject to the full force of the law without appeal if found guilty.

7)Anyone harbouring an illegal immigrant shall be subject to the full force of the law (without appeal if found guilty) and all their property shall be forfeit.

8)Anyone renting property to an illegal immigrant shall be subject similarly to no7.

9)Public religious gatherings for any religion shall be welcomed but their purpose should ONLY be for peaceful/spiritual/humanist purposes and should not in any way be the focus for undermining the nation's core Christian values.

10) No Parish/District/County Council in the UK shall be allowed more than 30 representation (in total) from non-Christian faiths and no-council may pass a proposal which in any way undermines the core-Christian values of the UK.

That'll be enough for now. I don't suggest the above is perfect. I don't suggest that Christianity is anything other than another religion with faults and much to answer for. But its Commandments form a decent basis for a Constitution and the above would do much, I believe, to ensure a peaceful society prepared to co-exist with people with other beliefs.

Core Christian values would have to be defined but perhaps based on:

No killing.

No stealing

No cheating

No intimidation

No bullying

No lying/misrepresentation

Equal rights for all men/women within the constitutional framework

No exploitation

Finally the law of the Land would be changed retrospectively to allow immediate solutions to be made for the dealing with illegal visitors presently on UK soil.

We would extract ourselves from current European Human Rights legislation, and any other legislation restricting our ability to Govern ourselves safely  on the basis of a national emergency (until such time as the crisis is over and our new policies are being seen to have effect.

I know the above doesn't give us an entirely free democracy (where does such a system exist?) and I know that power bases will be disrupted but it does allow for the proper co-existence of all peoples and it does mean, for instance that we would never again put our soldiers into Iraq for instance.

But does the above have any basis as a reasonable way of defending our future?

146092[/snapback]

PS In the paragraph about councils constitution it should read 30 per cent.

[Deathside]

too much reading!!

[Thracian]

too much reading!!

146094[/snapback]

Sorry. Do apologise. Find it hard to suggest solutions to a national crisis that might one day affect you and/or your family in a few words. Considering politicians have lengthy white papers on even the most mundane of subjects I didn't think it was that bad for length (which probably leaves it full of holes too).

[Guest]

I don't like the use of Christianity, surely the points you've picked out are a core theme of any religion, not just one denomination?

I believe that as long as you don't harm anyone else, physically or mentally, you should be allowed to belive what you want.

To umbrella decent morals in society under a religious tag is unfair, surely we should be aiming to keep politics secular?

[Ric Flair]

Thracian, I can't fault that at all. That to me ooozes discipline, but fair discipline without having to worry about the complexness of Human Rights.

Spot on. I'd be a happier man if this country followed those rules and stuck to them.

[Thracian]

Thracian, I can't fault that at all. That to me ooozes discipline, but fair discipline without having to worry about the complexness of Human Rights.

Spot on. I'd be a happier man if this country followed those rules and stuck to them.

146106[/snapback]

Thanks for the compliment. The key lies in your last seven words but without the will then we're facing years of misery for everyone.

[Ric Flair]

I don't like the use of Christianity, surely the points you've picked out are a core theme of any religion, not just one denomination?

I believe that as long as you don't harm anyone else, physically or mentally, you should be allowed to belive what you want.

To umbrella decent morals in society under a religious tag is unfair, surely we should be aiming to keep politics secular?

146105[/snapback]

Yes and No.

I believe there must be strict guidelines for anybody who wants to live in this country. This country has a long history of christian values and there are alot of countries who would have similar expectations of people who want to live in their country and i'm sure they aren't in the same mess we currently find ourselves in.

We've been too slack for too long now and I don't really know what the answer is. I'm sure whatever we do it might get worse before it get's better if you catch my drift. I might purchase myself an astonauts suit.

[Guest]

Yes and No.

I believe there must be strict guidelines for anybody who wants to live in this country. This country has a long history of christian values and there are alot of countries who would have similar expectations of people who want to live in their country and i'm sure they aren't in the same mess we currently find ourselves in.

We've been too slack for too long now and I don't really know what the answer is. I'm sure whatever we do it might get worse before it get's better if you catch my drift. I might purchase myself an astonauts suit.

146113[/snapback]

Don't get me wrong, the principles I agree with, but once we start calling it 'Christian' or 'Jewish' or 'Islamic', you start to sow the seeds from which the extremists can nurture paranoia, and before you know it we're under threat.

There should be a 'Moral Charter', and there should be tougher actions taken against those who flaunt the rules.

Any room on your spacecraft for me?

[Thracian]

I don't like the use of Christianity, surely the points you've picked out are a core theme of any religion, not just one denomination?

I believe that as long as you don't harm anyone else, physically or mentally, you should be allowed to belive what you want.

To umbrella decent morals in society under a religious tag is unfair, surely we should be aiming to keep politics secular?

146105[/snapback]

You can put it under a small "c" if you like because the basic rules of Christianity are the same or similar to most other religions. I did wonder about the "tag" and a tag was needed for simplicity so Christianity (being the mother religion of our island for centuries and much encompassing, seemed best). But please don't mistake me for one who bears a religious torch as such. I want decent values to prevail. Simple as that, and as whatever tag was used would be unacceptable to some this seemed the one that was perhaps most acceptable (shit that was a complicated sentence!).

[Thracian]

I don't like the use of Christianity, surely the points you've picked out are a core theme of any religion, not just one denomination?

I believe that as long as you don't harm anyone else, physically or mentally, you should be allowed to belive what you want.

To umbrella decent morals in society under a religious tag is unfair, surely we should be aiming to keep politics secular?

146105[/snapback]

The problem in your last paragraph is that not everyone would agree and some would have the sort of authoritarian regime that has already existed in Afghanistan, Iran and Germany, of course. In the end, if you value your country's ideals you have to protect them and defend them. If you protect them by law hopefully you won't have to defend them on the streets.

[Thracian]

Don't get me wrong, the principles I agree with, but once we start calling it 'Christian' or 'Jewish' or 'Islamic', you start to sow the seeds from which the extremists can nurture paranoia, and before you know it we're under threat.

There should be a 'Moral Charter', and there should be tougher actions taken against those who flaunt the rules.

Any room on your spacecraft for me? 

146117[/snapback]

Don't book yourselves on that American thing! I value your viewpoints too much.

[Steven]

But does the above have any basis as a reasonable way of defending our future?

146092[/snapback]

In short, er no.

However I do think you have hit on what I think is important and would satisfy my worries about the Government's needless abuse of peoples Human Rights and that is the notion of a proper written Constitution which not only guarantees the rights of those who choose to live under the freedoms it guarantees but also outlines the ways in which the Judicial system (not politicians or Police, there is a need for cool heads) can take away these Rights for those who don't.

As for have any faith mentioned, that is an absolute no-no. I believe in absolute disestablishment with the Queen giving up her role as Head of the Church.

[Thracian]

In short, er no.     

However I do think you have hit on what I think is important and would satisfy my worries about the Government's needless abuse of peoples Human Rights and that is the notion of a proper written Constitution which not only guarantees the rights of those who choose to live under the freedoms it guarantees but also outlines the ways in which the Judicial system (not politicians or Police, there is a need for cool heads) can take away these Rights for those who don't.

As for have any faith mentioned, that is an absolute no-no. I believe in absolute disestablishment with the Queen giving up her role as Head of the Church. 

146138[/snapback]

Come on Steve. It's alright shooting ideas down but for Heaven sake tell us where my ideas go wrong and explain to us the better way forward. There are bodies laying out there.

The faith thing is being used as a bit of a smokescreen and I've already said it can have a small "c" but the "c" values have served us quite well for a long time and should not be lightly discarded.

What would be in your Constitution?. How would your system work?

[lush]

a) A proper national constitution declaring that the UK is a core Christian society which welcomes followers of other creeds/religions only on the basis that:

146092[/snapback]

Forget christianity and all other religions. what we need is a core belief of right n wrong.

Im sick n tired of religion forcing its way onto the way in which our country is run.

We cant have one religion dictate more than the others, so forget religion altogether.

Why cant we just believe in right n wrong.

[Steven]

Come on Steve. It's alright shooting ideas down but for Heaven sake tell us where my ideas go wrong and explain to us the  better way forward. There are bodies laying out there.

The faith thing is being used as a bit of a smokescreen and I've already said it can have a small "c" but the "c" values have served us quite well for a long time and should not be lightly discarded.

What would be in your Constitution?. How would your system work?

146158[/snapback]

Why not start with the Rights we have already signed up for and stiffen the privacy issues and the curb the rights of Governments as a basis for a Constitution.

[Thracian]

Why not start with the Rights we have already signed up for and stiffen the privacy issues and the curb the rights of Governments as a basis for a Constitution.

146179[/snapback]

Gee whiz it's hard to get substance out of you. Time and again you offer the germs of ideas but fail to elaborate in detail. I don't know whether you lack the confidence to put your ideas to the test, whether you think we should all have developed a line of thinking based on your prompts or if you believe some of us are mindreaders.

Are you for greater Human Rights and, if so, in what way, are you for more privacy protection and if so how and how would you limit the powers of the Government? Finally after all that, how would it help the current crisis and, if not, how would you deal with the terrorism issue?

Go for a sentence at a time over three years if it's your style ( but I am interested.

[TrickyTrev]

We are a SECULAR democracy, any movements away from that is an unwanted comprimise on our principles. Human rights legislation is there for the protection of all people at all times, not when it suits the government.

Much of your requirements for British citizenship already exist, the governemnt has made the laws even 'tougher' with citizenship lessons including swearing alliagnce to the queen now a requirment.

It is very tempting in times like these to want to do SOMETHING. Innocent people are dying and the city I love is in nothign short of turnoil. Read what you want about Londoners get on with their lives refusing to live with fear, the reality is very different. However, much of what is proposed will have little or no effect in preventing terrorism. Aside form their obvious negative externalities how will things liek ID cards actually help? Is there anyway you can stop a person killing others if they really wnat to, I don't think there is.

By all means we need to step up security on transport and do our best to seek out the bomb suppliers and the network that surounds them We also need to encourage the Muslim communnirty to internally weed out the evil minority that hides amongst them. This is only goign to do with positive symbolic and inclusive working relationships, not with antagoinistic 'all guns blazing' legislation.

This is a difficult problem without easy solutions. If they existed, they would have been implemented long a go.

[Thracian]

Forget christianity and all other religions. what we need is a core belief of right n wrong.

Im sick n tired of religion forcing its way onto the way in which our country is run.

We cant have one religion dictate more than the others, so forget religion altogether.

Why cant we just believe in right n wrong.

146173[/snapback]

I've no problem with establishing a set of core values for our nation which doesn't have a Christian handle. As I've explained a couple of times I have no religious hat to wear.

And, it is quite obvious from the forum that many of you are wary of linking religion with our national constitution/way of life - and that might well be a better way.

So what should the core values be. I've mentioned a few but if you've got ideas think about it. They must be core values you are prepared to stand by and defend in every normal situation except (or perhaps not except) in times of Marshall Law (ie when we are under threat of invasion or have some exceptional crisis to deal with).

But your core values also have to be wary of people/organisations who would seek to impose their own agenda on our society for their own ends.

The terrorism shows more than anything that we have to declare what we stand for, defend what we stand for and protect these things from abuse by all who would destroy them.

[TrickyTrev]

in times of Marshall Law (ie when we are under threat of invasion or have some exceptional crisis to deal with).

Which by the way we are NOT in and thus shoudl not be abnodoning the principles we already have in place.

The British has never had a clear and succient constitution like the US. We have an 'evovling' constitution that is made up of a mass of legislation and counter legislation over many centuries.

I'd like to defend what we have as I believe our country works pretty damkn well as it is. We have one of the best performing economies in the world, we are home to soem of the greatest scientisits, artists and musicians in the world despite hbeing a relatively small country. Our's is a country rich in diverse culture and our great cities, particuarly London, are defined by a clebration of enjoyment, enlightenment and creativity.

What i am trying to say is our country works pretty damn well as it is and whilst I am far from conservative in nature, I see no reason to radically change any of our core values.