Kitchandro

1 hour ago, 21st Century Fox said:

How can you be sure he's a decent manager and hasn't just been playing with an advantage the whole time.

Because knowing a team’s tactics and countering them with better tactics are worlds apart. Assuming he even knew anything vital in the first place. Oh they do zonal marking? Crikey, well knowing that it’s a certain win!

And all this nonsense about principles. Thomas Tuchel tried to re-sign Jerome Boateng and refused to comment against the Super League. I’m assuming none of you will be supporting England this summer then?
 

What about managers who encourage players to dive, stay down, time waste? The shortlist is getting shorter…

Southampton may have underperformed early in the season but they’ve improved under him. I do think it’s fair that he’s sacked, he’s royally cocked things up for them, and I doubt I would like him based on his inflated ego. But assuming he’s had his fingers burnt sufficiently, we could certainly do worse. 

5 hours ago, StanSP said:

Josh Windass trying to edge Wrexham into the equation saying they should replace Southampton and have all the Championship play-offs redone  

And this is why it was a silly ruling. That argument is now completely reasonable. Why shouldn’t Wrexham be in? Why should any result over the past season stand until every single fixture is reviewed?

22 minutes ago, fazzyfox said:

Absolutely agree, when they sat in the briefing room being given the details of Oxford / Ipswich / Boro, particularly Boro who they’d played twice before at that stage, didn’t anyone raise the question “How do we know this”? If it was supposedly based on match footage did they wonder why that was not being played to them as is the norm? If the info gained through spying was just considered supplementary and used in conjunction with traditional presentations and drills you’d still think “How do we know this is the case”.

The only other option was that it looked at whether there was anything new or different to expect and the footage revealed that “no there isn’t” so wasn’t useful apart from in re-enforcing existing expectations. Or very minimal in just suggesting the line up but nothing else?
 

I’d say it should be a 1 year ban for all involved but where do you draw the line on “Involved”? The spy, the person who asked him to (manager had admitted), the data team who processed the information and factored it into presentations. Every coach who worked on drills following gaining the information? is there a whistle blowing policy (insert referee joke) for anyone working at a club like in other industries? Or just tip off the chairman anonymously rather than turn a blind eye.
 
it reminds me of the newspaper editors who ran stories from their journalists built around information shared in intimate conversations yet claimed all innocence of knowledge that phone tapping was involved. Where did they think the private dialogue came from? 

These managers are very arrogant, hence why they would put so much importance on something like this. He thinks he’s a genius with his fine-margins and going the extra mile. Like those method actors who take themselves too seriously. ‘To beat Middlesbrough, I need to BE Middlesbrough’.

In other words, I doubt anyone second guessed him because he’ll impose his authority on the environment. After all, the data people are there to support him, not call the shots.

I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say the manager just told someone to do this stuff in private and keep it hush hush. If he decided to change the tactics at the last minute no one is going to demand the manager explain himself. 

In reality, anything they found out from spying would have been supplementary information that was unlikely to have drastically changed anything. Maybe the odd pointer. I don’t see why anyone other than the manager and a couple of others would need to have been any the wiser. 

17 hours ago, mazarron fox said:

Watched the documentary last night and it’s incredible what he achieved being as he was so off the rails, I saw his Mrs in a different light and she was as instrumental in his revival as anyone. Great watch.

That’s why they make these shows though. People said the same about the Beckhams. Being intentionally presented in a personable and positive light doesn’t make them good people.

She may well be good to her husband but that’s not the be all and end all.

12 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

neither can you justify the wrong of what Southampton did based on the wrongs of others 

I’m not justifying it. It was wrong. That doesn’t make the punishment fair or proportionate.

What gains more of an advantage - buying a quality player or knowing what tactics the opposition plays?

Every team cheats, every team tries to gain an advantage. But they aren’t kicked out of competitions or given points deductions if they are a big club. 
 

Furthermore, would Southampton have got kicked out for an Erland Jonsson 1997 style penalty, despite the fact there would be categorical provable evidence that it decided the result? This ruling makes no sense. There’s no precedent for it or evidence that it affected the result.

I keep saying it but any argument that Middlesbrough lost because the Southampton knew how they were going to play is just not genuine. They lost because they weren’t quite good enough. What could they have possibly done that they didn’t actually do in that match? What unstoppable surprises were they planning?

In the context of Celtic keeping their title after stopping a match being completed and refereeing decisions that were objectively wrong, and Man City keeping titles after buying world class players with money they shouldn’t have been allowed to spend - this is an absolutely crazy decision.

Sorry but you can’t defend the rules in a connected football pyramid when there is such a failure to impose consistent and proportionate punishments.

A lot of pearl clutching about pitch invasions these days which is pure classism. ‘Can’t have members of the public being near elite sportsmen, they might get hurt’. 

Needs to be made very clear that there is a huge difference between pitch invasions after the final whistle, and what Celtic have done today; which is stop the game being completed. If it’s after the game I say go nuts even if it is a bit forced when you win every year.

Celtic and Rangers fans have a well-earned reputation for being violent, coke fuelled thugs and that is a separate issue.

7 minutes ago, JonnyZeroFox said:

Yeah the second half was very poor from hearts to be fair. You can’t do that if you want to win the league 

Both sides were poor, but Hearts were easily the better team in the 1st half. 

I’ve definitely seen penalties given like that one today but pundits saying ‘by the letter of the law it’s a penalty’ are objectively incorrect. There is no evidence that it was intentional. But obviously Celtic are always going to get it, doubt Hearts would have.

They should review that decision last week and strip them of it, it’s as simple as that. Anyone saying they’re worthy champions should be ashamed of themselves.

Just now, shen said:

Does that penalty affect the table though? Celtic would still need a win either way.

Motherwell still need to get a point at Hibs.

 

Did I miss something or was that penalty inconsequential?

Celtic now only have to win 1-0 instead of 3-0.

Listening to everyone of a Celtic persuasion claiming it is a penalty is sickening as well. People like O’Neill, Scott Brown, Bonner. They should actually be called out by the other pundits and managers for being dishonest. You can see it’s bounced off his head, why lie? Just admit you’ve had a slice of luck you didn’t deserve. 

I swear you cannot go a day without something dodgy ruining something you might otherwise enjoy. Even if you stop paying attention to sports, the corrupting force of money creeps into every facet of life.

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Sky are delirious 

can’t even hide it 

BBC radio are as well. So blatant they’re all desperate for people to watch / listen at the weekend.

Clearly it’s an extremely controversial decision but they’re not even talking about it.

3 hours ago, 21st Century Fox said:

It can sometimes take an entire half of a match before you can readjust to a particular way a team is setup. Imagine being able to do that from the start, you’ve gained a huge advantage.

 

Not only that if Southampton played a particular way and Boro were setting up to counter that, Southampton would already know that and could then adjust accordingly. There’s so much more they could learn than just watching back matches.

And if they hadn’t spied they could also have changed their tactics at the last minute because they just assumed Boro were going to counter it anyway. Or just for the hell of it. That’s allowed. And we’d have no way of knowing that was their reasoning and we wouldn’t care.

So what? Teams can change tactics and it’s a disaster. The line-ups are announced 90 minutes before kick off now. What if Southampton changed their tactics as a reaction to seeing Boro’s line-up and it worked really well? How would we know if that made the difference? Does that extra half an hour (it used to be only an hour before) really affect matches these days?

To be clear I do think the spying is creepy and out of order but worthy of no more than a fine, you just cannot realistically suggest that it’s a disadvantage for another team to know your game plan. When teams are deducted points for last minute penalty dives I’ll consider taking spying seriously on the infringement front.

3 hours ago, Aleksz said:

A lot. This bloke allegedly had a high tech microphone to pick up coaches voices too as well as cameras. They could have taken line ups, set piece routines, pressing schemes and shapes. Think this is all being a bit under estimated by the average football fan. 

I’ve said it before but if a manager’s argument is ‘they know our line-up and set piece routines and style of play so we’ve lost’, then they’re not a very good manager. This is pure arrogance from managers where they think their genius surprise tactics that they’ve used for the last 46 games is the reason they finished in the heady heights of FIFTH. What happens when they work out your game plan 5 minutes in? It all goes out the window?
 

Football is a game where you either score more goals than the other team or you don’t. It’s not poker. I know players like Robben and Mahrez loved cutting in on his left foot every single time but stopping it is hard. Deciding that a team MUST have gained an advantage from knowing the opposition’s tactics is a slippery slope. It’s a fluid sport with so many variables. 

4 hours ago, Foxin_Mad said:

People keep banging on a bout the spy thing not being worthy of a points deduction. This is far more worthy than deductions for having bad accounts. 

Not really. Neither make any sense from the perspective of points deductions. Money is a bigger advantage than spying on training though, by a huge amount. Money buys you better players. Spying might give you information you could have got by watching matches, at best.

I’m baffled by the online reaction to this. There’s no way Boro lost because someone spied on their training session. It’s just one of those weird obsessive things managers do now because they believe the hype about ‘fine margins’ and all that nonsense.

The most serious part of this amounts to trespassing. There’s no real footballing advantage gained and considering players are diving for penalties and getting players sent off by faking injury left right and centre (which makes a tangible difference to a match), any points deduction or expulsion would be an absolute disgrace. Especially as absolutely no rules apply to the bigger clubs.

I don’t understand giving a points deduction unless you’re awarding the points to other teams. Either they gained or an advantage in the actual matches or they didn’t. That’s the reason to take points off, so by the same logic they disadvantaged the teams they played. Giving them a points deduction next season suits no one.
 

As it happens I see it as a very minor, if pathetic, infringement. The game is played on the pitch, if someone knowing your tactics is enough to cost you the game, they aren’t very good tactics. A decent manager wouldn’t even care.

Southampton players and fans don’t even seem bothered.

You know it’s a good game when the producer says ‘zoom in on that ballboy’.

tbf he’s given absolutely everything tonight.

Weaver as usual loving his sound bite one-liners and not reading the room. Another terrible game.

5 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I get bored of seeing comments like this. If teams aren't where people expect them to be, and other teams overachieve, people just say "the league is poor". Not just Championship either but every league. We need more teams overachieving, in every league, so we don't just have leagues as expected prior to the season starting. Still annoys me when neutrals refer to our Premier League win as "poor league". When did all this even start.

 

Like I said at the top of the thread, Hull had a transfer embargo and an "unproven" new manager. They weren't expected to be anywhere near top 6 but fair play to them they've had a great season.

I agree with this sentiment in general but sometimes the league is just relatively poor. I remember times when some really good teams playing good attacking football missed out on promotion from this division, and even decent sides were relegated from the Prem.

English football is on its arse, IMO.

No. He shouldn’t demean himself by slumming it in League One. King Power don’t deserve him.

How are you defining world class?

Vardy was absolutely world class and would have been netting 40 goals a season if he’d been at Man City. Do you remember him under Puel? He’d be getting one chance a game and scoring it. He was played out wide under Pearson and Southgate which was ridiculous.
 

Anyone claiming Vardy isn’t world class and Kane is, when he’s been given the red carpet treatment all his career with all the service and starting places he wants because he’s been at a fashionable, fairly successful (at the time) London club competing at the top end, is not a serious person. In fact, look how much crapper Kane was than Vardy when he was played out wide with us. Look how often he’s gone missing in big games for England and inhibits the team’s fluency. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve had to say Vardy’s conversion rate of chances was better than Kane’s in the Premier League. Vardy was too loyal / comfortable for his own good.

Mahrez was playing for Man City and scoring winners in Champions League semi-finals. What more do you want?

Kante isn’t even a question. He’s the best player I have ever seen in the position he plays.

Lineker and Banks speak for themselves. Again, it’s not even a debate.

Being world class isn’t all about technical skill by the way. It’s about producing regularly at the very highest level.

This idea that you have to be able to get into a ‘world 11’ is also a poor argument. There’s about 15 midfielders at any one time that are far, far more crucial and effective than the best left backs and goalkeepers. You could have replaced Danny Simpson with Cafu but getting rid of Mahrez or Vardy would have completely tanked our title chances. Simpson was not more world class than Mahrez just because Messi exists.

We started getting good when we buried Richard III. Then we cocked it all up by putting the King Power statue outside the stadium. Check the dates. Richard is pissed and now we’re cursed until someone else gets killed in battle. 

Now if someone could mock up an image of Top, thrown from his horse during polo, finally coming to the realisation that he has ruined the club and signed the worst strikers we’ve ever had, and saying ‘My kingdom for Geoff Horsfield’ - that would cheer me up until then.

I wouldn’t want him, purely because he (presumably) has a relationship with the owner. If he’s terrible he’ll be kept on out of ‘loyalty’. 
 

And I’m aware there’s going to be no ideal candidates. It’s difficult because the ideal character would be someone that wouldn’t want to work with King Power and who King Power wouldn’t want to appoint. But somehow he hits the ground running and everyone is forced to stick it out because we can’t stop winning 😄