Lillehamring

You do realise that Hamza's passing accuracy is the highest in the squad? 95.5% Granted he's not played as much as others, but he IS good on the ball. As for playmaker, i wouldn't say Winks is a playmaker either, he has no assists and his key passes per game is rather low, comparable with mcateer and casadei.

BUt given sunderland's press, tactically speaking this should have been far more effective than it was - i think it was the quality of the balls that failed us, rather than the type of balls.

Sure, i think there has definitely been more caution in the last few games, but then these last few games have been amongst the toughest opponents we've played - even QPR i think are a tad underrated. I'd like to think that it is just this rather than any kind of complacency or, ahem, 'shitting it'. All those last four teams were capable of hitting us on the transition and i think (i hope) he sensed that and set us up to not get overexposed - at bottom, we only conceded 1 goal in open play in those games, and that was a scrappy thing rather than a counter. But yeah, our forward play let us down in all those games - not helped by some sub-par efforts from, but not limited to, vardy, nacho and casadei. and not helped having to use ricardo as an 8 against boro.

If we're talking about quality chances, then we were definitely best in the swansea game, our xG was 1.9, but it was 1.6 against boro and qpr, so not massively different; sunderland was 1.3 but in a game where we scored early and had to really just defend that lead, there wasn't quite the urgency/need for risk to push for a second. The real stinker was the leeds game where it was 0.9 - that said leeds' 1.4 was lower than we had against boro and qpr, and everyone is going on about how good leeds were going forward. As far as general chances are concerned we had 14 shots against swansea, 11 against qpr and boro, again not that much difference. For the same reason mentioned above we didn't have many shots against sunderland (8), but we were far more efficient with them, forcing 5 saves. It feels a bit like the leeds game is defining the feeling towards the other four games (let's not forget that we got 1.5 points per game in these matches that would, after these 16 games be the equivalent of 24 points and 9th place) and I think it's dangerous to confuse us declining with the fact that, qpr, aside, that was a tough run of games.

Or maybe the stifling methods were simply showing respect to two of the best teams we'll play this season? Besides, stifling methods or not, we still could/should have taken points from both the boro and leeds games - personally i didn't feel the boro game was that different to most of the other games where teams have sat back, other than perhaps a note of caution in view of their ability to counter - we lost that becuase of the players misfiring not because of maresca.

Yeah - it was clear that the priority was a spine (though it turned out we already had one part in jannik) and some width. The 8s and strikers were always going to be placeholders, given that we had experienced players in those spots, even if they weren't/aren't quite right for the system. It will be interesting to see - now that we know the system and manager work - how they act in the january window.

Which is why it keeps coming back to the reality that we don't have the right players for the system. It's not that our FBs attacking attributes have become obsolete - it's that the position of FB in this system has become obsolete - we no longer operate with FBs (though it's worth noting that doyle and faes are probably far more attacking that any other CB in the league).

Wow, what a bewildering rambling mess of a post! Why must you always explode when you don't agree with something? - someone raised the question of JJ playing #8, i debated that and (as usual) got called out for being critical of a player and attempted to explain (rationally and clearly) why i believe what i do. We all have players we rate and don't rate, and we all discuss the merits of said players. If you don't agree with me, you don't need to go on some lunatic rant in attempt to prove me wrong, because it's so incoherent i can't even work out if you actually make a point worth considering.

You are familliar with winks' passing stats, right? I think it was in the LM or somewhere that only about a quarter or something of his passes are actually forward passes - it's not the natrure of the role, he's a pivot he holds the ball and releases.

Makes sense - in fact, as good as winks has been, this is perhaps a more flexible partnership as it allows either one of them to drop wide and cover.

I've explained many times on here why i don't rate him as highly as others do - my memory is not selective: he was decent but had some areas where he had a lot of work to do - i think that's a balanced view? 2 goals and 1 assist in 6000 minutes of football (in the PL) is less than what Luke Thomas managed in the same spell despite being 3 years younger - it's not great. For a player supposedly with attacking ability, i'd personally expect a better return, especially given the fact that his best season was when, as a team, we were playing our best football. What i will add is that his england call up isn't perhaps the achievement people try to make out. generally speaking, southgate's selections were very, ahem, selective - that he'd call up justin out of all the quality english players leicester had at that time was bewildering, but what is most significant about his selection is that at the time there was probably no other player in the prem that could play left back in an england shirt - essentially, he was playing well enough to get noticed but had no competition in his position - it's a good achievement but doesn't reflect the full story of his abilities at the time. Besides, getting an england cap is no guarantee of quality, there are some awful players who have got one. Regardless, the way he plays now is decidedly cautious and doesn't seem anywhere close to the level it should be at at his age.

I think that works both ways though - i think a lot of people are comfortable remembering the good parts of his game, whilst completely forgetting the bad parts of his game, before us he was a 3rd tier player, he came in and played well in a team that was generally playing well, but still needed a lot of work. And even at his best, he really had no end product as an attacker (even in his best season when he played 2000+ minutes, he managed 2 goals and 1 assist). There also seems to be some blind faith amongst fans that whatever he was or might have grown to be is only a matter of time away from returning/developing - but injuries such as his can physically and mentally ruin a player's potential. And, so far, he doesn't look anywhere near being good enough as a long term option (assuming we go back up), regardless of position. So far as assessing his capabilities, I think that's what enzo is doing whilst Doyle is out, as that seems to be the only position he fancies him in (except on the right side), but he's nearly 26, unless something incredible happens to him this season, i wouldn't be surprised if they cash in on him next summer (#IWGU)

I thought against boro was his best performance this season, hints of confidence returning, but too often taking the cautious option. He showed that he can be good - but at this level, with the possession we have, he should be making these runs 10-15 times a game, not a season. I think maresca respects him and likes him, and he churns out the plaudits (which is i suspect JJ needs to hear) - but i think he knows that he doesn't really fit in our system. I think he's trying to find ways to involve him but it seems like he is conscious of his lack of versatility.

Definitely - credit his attitude for dropping down, but it must be hard for him to stay motivated playing at a level below his standard.

His 'driving forward' for me is a myth based on a handful of games when he got forward, maybe he did it more, i don't remember - but since his injuries he's looked devoid of confidence and rarely ventures forward and more often than not turns around and passes back. Justin as a #8 i can't see happening, he just doesn't seem to have the range of passing that is required - as limited as n'didi is - i think justin is a FB that is ok going forward but not one with much end product - he seems to have a great attitude but, like VK, would probably be better playing for a team that wants someone that can do what he does.

But i think this is more to do with no longer having the right players around him, missing doyle and ndidi (and most recently ricardo) means that, whilst winks is still doing what he has been doing so well, it is these missing players that were creating the breaks - pressing the button, as you say - hamza, justin and casadei simply aren't creative or sharp enough to make the plays. to double down on this shortcoming , we're also relying more, as a result, on KDH - as such his game has been supressed.

A lot of people were clamouring for justin to come in for Doyle and castigating doyle (i suspect either for struggling against hull or for being with us on loan?) - i said at the time be careful what you wish for. Whilst he does seem to be getting some confidence back he remains a terribly negative player and rarely plays anything that isn't a 100% likely pass, adding to the fact that his rightfootedness is also a hindrance, it's no surpeise that we've lost some of our dynamism since he's been out.

But the point is, he's 16 games into his tenure and hasn't even had time to fully implement his Plan A, the idea that they've had time to work on a plan B is wildly optimistic and wholly unrealistic.

That promoted teams score fewer in the PL than the EFL hardly seems like a revelation - but scoring fewer goals doesn't necessarily mean that a team will struggle, that will largely depend on how well they defend. If we go onto score 87 goals and concede 30 goals (three times the current) and ipswich finish on 108 and 63 - if you take that form into the PL and say for the sake of argument we both score half as many and concede twice as many, we'll finish with F44 A60 GD-16, whilst ipswich would finish with F54 A126 GD-72 - which of these is most likely to be a team who struggle? even at 1.5x as many conceded it gives us: F44 A45 GD-1, F54 A94 GD-40 - i know it's not realistic, but to prove that goals scored really isn't the be all and end all; It's impossible to predict but Ipswich are very leaky, so, all other things remaining equal, personally i'd take our strong defence against their (slightly superior) goalscoring

Comparing any team with any previous team is meaningless, generally speaking. This is a tactics thread, if someone wants to talk about specific rodgers' tactics in relation to the current tactics , fair enough - but posters should be specific, other wise it adds nothing to the discussion. Some wafer thin coincidence that we lost a couple of games whilst making limited substitutions is just knee-jerk paranoia, save it for this mental thread....

Rodgers had two good seasons, two poor season, so to draw any comparison with his time with us is, at best, unreliable, to parallel the two managers based on enzo not making substitutions late in a couple of games is really desperate. I'm sure every single manager at some point has angered fans by not taking off an underperforming player, to single out such an action as being the trademark of a certain manager is extremely selective. So, frankly, no, enzo reminds me not a bit of rodgers.

Yeah, bit odd with the subs, but such an insignificant thing is a lot to base such a comparison on, especially as rodgers had such a jekyll and hyde career with us.

he was far from our worst player.

How can you judge enzo as stubborn and rigid - he's played 16 league games and probably hasn't even finished teaching the players Plan A, you can't expect him to have multiple systems all running this early into his tenure. Think of it as being consistent and trying to reinforce his vision.