Death of England Football Team

[davieG]

Do statistics like this reflect the potential demise of England as one of the big International Football Teams?

Percentage of players indigenous to national leagues:

2004-05

Spain (La Liga) 70.4

Italy (Serie A) 68.5

England (Premiership) 38.6

Percentage of home-grown players

2004-05

England (Premiership) 51.2

Home-grown players are defined as those British-born players who were developed by English clubs. Thus Muzzy Izzet, Frank Sinclair and Nigel Quashie, all of whom were born in Britain and began at English clubs but now represent foreign countries, are considered home-grown.

I believe it reflects the BAD side of the Premiership, it's all well and good having the Henry's of this world playing here and Chelski buying every player that comes along and it's not as if we have that many playing in the top leagues of Spain and Italy etc. In my opinion it signals the long term demise of England, how long before the England team is made up of mostly Championship players?

[shen]

Do statistics like this reflect the potential demise of England as one of the big International Football Teams?

Percentage of players indigenous to national leagues:

2004-05

Spain (La Liga) 70.4

Italy (Serie A) 68.5

Percentage of home-grown players

2004-05

England (Premiership) 51.2

Home-grown players are defined as those British-born players who were developed by English clubs. Thus Muzzy Izzet, Frank Sinclair and Nigel Quashie, all of whom were born in Britain and began at English clubs but now represent foreign countries, are considered home-grown.

I believe it reflects the BAD side of the Premiership, it's all well and good having the Henry's of this world playing here and Chelski buying every player that comes along and it's not as if we have that many playing in the top leagues of Spain and Italy etc. In my opinion it signals the long term demise of England, how long before the England team is made up of mostly Championship players?

45320[/snapback]

Im just going to change that word, as we don't want it to be misinterpreted as something racist

And I cant really see what the worry's about... You have potentially one of the best national teams at the moment and with the market collapse in football, clubs have no choice but to invest in their own youth sooner or later...

[Guest]

Sorry, I agree with Davie.

At first, it was great that our home-grown talent could learn from the worlds best players, but at some clubs, there are so few English players, it is unbelievable!

The national side is suffering because of this.

[davieG]

Do statistics like this reflect the potential demise of England as one of the big International Football Teams?

Percentage of players indigenous to national leagues:

2004-05

Spain (La Liga) 70.4

Italy (Serie A) 68.5

Percentage of home-grown players

2004-05

England (Premiership) 51.2

Home-grown players are defined as those British-born players who were developed by English clubs. Thus Muzzy Izzet, Frank Sinclair and Nigel Quashie, all of whom were born in Britain and began at English clubs but now represent foreign countries, are considered home-grown.

I believe it reflects the BAD side of the Premiership, it's all well and good having the Henry's of this world playing here and Chelski buying every player that comes along and it's not as if we have that many playing in the top leagues of Spain and Italy etc. In my opinion it signals the long term demise of England, how long before the England team is made up of mostly Championship players?

45320[/snapback]

Im just going to change that word, as we don't want it to be misinterpreted as something racist

And I cant really see what the worry's about... You have potentially one of the best national teams at the moment and with the market collapse in football, clubs have no choice but to invest in their own youth sooner or later...

45349[/snapback]

Thanks for the edit Shen

They maybe investing in youth, unfortunately clubs like Arsenal have a youth squad that appears to reflect the first team squad in terms of nationality, so that doesn't look like the answer. Even Uefa are worried and believe it's why countries like Italy, Germany, England are doing relatively badly at the Euro Championships and are considering quotas.

[shen]

Do statistics like this reflect the potential demise of England as one of the big International Football Teams?

Percentage of players indigenous to national leagues:

2004-05

Spain (La Liga) 70.4

Italy (Serie A) 68.5

Percentage of home-grown players

2004-05

England (Premiership) 51.2

Home-grown players are defined as those British-born players who were developed by English clubs. Thus Muzzy Izzet, Frank Sinclair and Nigel Quashie, all of whom were born in Britain and began at English clubs but now represent foreign countries, are considered home-grown.

I believe it reflects the BAD side of the Premiership, it's all well and good having the Henry's of this world playing here and Chelski buying every player that comes along and it's not as if we have that many playing in the top leagues of Spain and Italy etc. In my opinion it signals the long term demise of England, how long before the England team is made up of mostly Championship players?

45320[/snapback]

Im just going to change that word, as we don't want it to be misinterpreted as something racist

And I cant really see what the worry's about... You have potentially one of the best national teams at the moment and with the market collapse in football, clubs have no choice but to invest in their own youth sooner or later...

45349[/snapback]

Thanks for the edit Shen

They maybe investing in youth, unfortunately clubs like Arsenal have a youth squad that appears to reflect the first team squad in terms of nationality, so that doesn't look like the answer. Even Uefa are worried and believe it's why countries like Italy, Germany, England are doing relatively badly at the Euro Championships and are considering quotas.

45369[/snapback]

Problem is, when you're an ambitious club like Arsenal, you want the best of the best. Be it current stars or ones for the future. Maybe the situation is just such that British talent is in a low. Therefore they go out and get the foreign cream of the crop from all over the world. England will always have top notch youngsters, but maybe they're hitting a low at the moment. Scotland has certainly never been worse off than now, and it's some time ago I've heard of a new up and coming Irish talent (apart from Dawson).

But it's an intricate issue... you might well be right that it's a worry.

I can't always take UEFA/FIFAs arguments seriously... Blaming the number of foreigners in the top leagues seems a very lame excuse. It is pretty obvious from the Euro 2004 games, that many stars just didn't perform and were outshone by lessser known players. EIther this tells you that players are overpaid and just can't motivate themselves for international games, or that they're just playing too many games during a season and get jaded after some time. On the plus side, it's great to see that many of the mediocre national teams around the world, and especially in Europe, have become more competitive and long may it continue .

Nevertheless quotes is a reasonable idea, and is the best way to force clubs to use homegrown talent..

[Jordan]

How much of this is a true barometer for measuring a national team's future and how much of it is Chicken Little saying that the sky is falling?

England sits atop their World Cup 2006 qualifying group. England missed a spot in the Euro 2004 semifinals because they lost a penalty shootout. In 2002, if it weren't for Seaman watching Ronaldinho's shot float into the net, one might have heard the theme song from "The Great Escape" being sung in Yokohama instead of samba rhythms.

Italy and Spain, with high percentages of "home-grown" talent, didn't even get out of their group stages in Euro 2004, and if I recall correctly, it wasn't some Catalan starlet or a ragazzo from Rome who was hailed as the next young European superstar this summer, but a pudgy kid from the Merseyside named Wayne Rooney.

The amount of Irish players in England may also tip the scales a little bit, as we all know that if you're good enough and you're Irish, there's a good chance England's where you'll wind up.

From a neutral perspective, it seems as though a lot of English fans do have faith in their national team, but when the team crashes out of a tournament after a respectable (but not world-beating) performance, a lot of those same fans are ready to give their "I told you so" excuses (foreign manager, not enough home-grown talent in the Premiership, too many national team players playing in England, don't have any players with "continental" flair, tactics and strategy aren't sophisticated, etc.)

Here's a devil's advocate response to the post by davieg: The amount of foreign players in the Premiership can help talented English players by giving them a better chance of playing against the world's best and the opportunity to learn from as well as play against many different playing styles. Personally, I think that the English media's ridiculous coverage treatment of its national team players and its manager has a more detrimental effect on the team than Arsenal fielding an All-French XI.

[shen]

Thats an excellent post mate! I do think that especially the media are more destructive than constructive. But it's like that in every country, I guess it comes with the times...

Even here in Denmark, parts of the press, the tabloids most obviously, slag off our national team time and again. Why? I don't know. For a country our size, we have an excellent football team, yet generally people are deluded and think we're world beaters. I think we're doing terrific with the resources at our disposal, and most of this is down to our manager, Morten Olsen, who's maybe the best manager we've ever had! Yet the press are right on his back every time he makes a miniscule mistake or doesn't succumb to the medias wishes as to who should play. I can imagine that this is 20 times worse in Britain and the other big footballing nations! Olsen has already threatened to quit on several occasions if the press do not back off. So indirectly our national team are made unstable by the press, and this is much more destructive than foreigners in respective domestic leagues!

[Scow]

I'm impressed with Denmark's national team. They play good football under Olsen, pass and move it around quite well. They also play with two genuine wingers with a lot of pace in Rommedahl and Gronkjaer, which stretches the opposition.

[TrickyTrev]

Statistics skewd due to numbers of Irish, Welsh and Scotish players playing in the premiership that we woudl always consider homegrown but are obviously not available for the national team.

In my opinion the ebst players will get a chance at their club but only if they are good enough look at Rooney, Ash Cole, John Terry, Stevie Gerrard and Michael owen. They have all coem through youth clubs systems and have gone onto become top players at the world's biggest clubs. It is still possible to break into a first team in England as long as you are good enough. This is the way it should be, what is the point in having loads of average English players if they are not good enough to play for the national team?

Everybody should calm down, the state of our football team is very healthy and we probably have as strong a national team as we have had in living memory.

[shen]

I'm impressed with Denmark's national team. They play good football under Olsen, pass and move it around quite well. They also play with two genuine wingers with a lot of pace in Rommedahl and Gronkjaer, which stretches the opposition.

45471[/snapback]

Indeed, Olsen uses the same system he developed back in his days as Ajax manager. His dutch-influenced style still remains very popular, and has been widely used by top clubs and nations in recent years (eg. ironically Holland played the same formation during Euro 2004). Usually Olsen plays Jørgensen ahead of Rommedahl (less pace, better technique), and Tomasson (who I rate as one of the most underestimated strikers in Europe) as lone striker.

Concerning England, I've been ever so impressed by their defence since Eriksson took over, especially during Euro 2004! But he struggles to make the midfield work properly IMO. Personally I feel Gerrard should be made captain ahead of Beckham, as England are far more dependant on him putting in a good performance to win. Beckham should be given a rest. Olsen chose to 'rest' Gravesen in the friendlies leading up to the Euro 2004, because he was suspended for the 1st game against Italy anyway, and in came Poulsen and did magnificently. Gravesen responded by turning previous disappointing performances into excellent ones once he came back into the team again. Eriksson should do the same with Beckham I feel. A midfield consisting of Wright-Phillips, Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes with Cole in the wingback role on the left, should have enough creativity, energy, punch and pace about it to support the excellent strike-force sufficiently.

Having said this, the teams mentality is way too much defensively orientated. Whether this is due to Eriksson's half-Italian mentality, or a lack of confidence going forward, I don't know, but it shouldn't be that hard to rectify...

[TrickyTrev]

I think England have a problem in that Eriksson seems insistant on playing 4-4-2 which requires having 2 wingers, we don't have any!

The 3-5-2 system would make best use of our strength in the middle of the park.