Muslims want gay leaders dead

[TrickyTrev]

That chart shows that Muslim families are more likely to have children than other religions.

It does not change the fact they are in a huge minority, your quote....

I wonder if Islamic law will become our law some day?

Double the amount of percentage birth rate is from Islamic families comparerd to christian families.

...made it sound as if there were mroe Muslim children being born than Christian children . I read that as you trying to suggest we were being taken over in some way. What else could your point be? Damn those Muslim families for wanting to bring up children in a family environment? I doubt it.

[Rincewind]

It's strange how men see gay sex between men as unatual yet rave about seeing two women going at it. Maybe its cos for men its usually wham bang thank you mam and women take their time. Womem turn to other women because they cant always get the satisfaction from men. For men once its gon its gone. Women can go on and on and on.

[rossporterlc]

It's strange how men see gay sex between men as unatual yet rave about seeing two women going at it. Maybe its cos for men its usually wham bang thank you mam and women take their time.  Womem turn to other women because they cant always get the satisfaction from men.  For men once its gon its gone. Women can go on and on and on.

143287[/snapback]

lesbian sex is good because as a friends said to me, "it's two for the price of one". gay male sex is none for the price of one!

[Thracian]

I think Iran executed two teenagers for being homosexual recently.       

143151[/snapback]

What a pity they don't take such a severe view of things of greater consequence... like the crime of brainwashing young minds and exporting murder.

I do try and I need to read more but at this time I don't think I will ever understand Islamic beliefs, Islamic laws and Islamic logic.

Killing people is abhorent (quite apart from being the ultimate sin). They may do it in the name of God but how lacking in humility that they, as mere mortals, consider they have the right to take the life of someone He so recently placed on the earth.

As for the teenagers many, many young people have mixed feelings about their sexuality. Imagine killing such people and having their deaths on your conscience for the rest of your life.

[Rincewind]

It was only in the last half century that the western world has changed. Pre WW2 young girls were still being put into mental insitutions for having babies out of wedlock. Homesexuality was taboo punishable by imprisonment. 150 years ago people used to be hung for stealing a loaf of bread. It will take a long time for Islamic countries to change as their lives and laws are governed by the Islamic faith. They see the land they live in as sacred and anyone that comes onto it being an insult to their God. America has warships in the Gulf and surrounding areas. We in the Western World may not see anything wrong with it because we are too concerned with keeping our own culture and way of living. For instance if it was not for the giant oil companies there many in Britain could not run two cars. What a disaster that would be.

All this does not justify what these people do of course but a lot of people see things just as black and white.

[lush]

That chart shows that Muslim families are more likely to have children than other religions.

It does not change the fact they are in a huge minority, your quote....

I wonder if Islamic law will become our law some day?

Double the amount of percentage birth rate is from Islamic families comparerd to christian families.

...made it sound as if there were mroe Muslim children being born than Christian children . I read that as you trying to suggest we were being taken over in some way. What else could your point be? Damn those Muslim families for wanting to bring up children in a family environment? I doubt it.

143285[/snapback]

What a strange way your mind works.

How about dealing with the words as they are, instead of assuming something that aint there?

My point is muslims make babies more than christians do, nothing more, nothing less. ***IF*** that trend continues, then eventually we will live in a mostly islamic country.

There just plain facts and logic.

[lush]

For men once its gon its gone. Women can go on and on and on.

143287[/snapback]

Speak for yourself

[lush]

150 years ago people used to be hung for stealing a loaf of bread.

I bet crime was low then.

It will take a long time for Islamic countries to change as their lives and laws are governed by the Islamic faith. They see the land they live in as sacred and anyone that comes onto it being an insult to their God.

I say ban religion in public, then it wont affect our daily lives so much.

143331[/snapback]

[TrickyTrev]

That chart shows that Muslim families are more likely to have children than other religions.

It does not change the fact they are in a huge minority, your quote....

I wonder if Islamic law will become our law some day?

Double the amount of percentage birth rate is from Islamic families comparerd to christian families.

...made it sound as if there were mroe Muslim children being born than Christian children . I read that as you trying to suggest we were being taken over in some way. What else could your point be? Damn those Muslim families for wanting to bring up children in a family environment? I doubt it.

143285[/snapback]

What a strange way your mind works.

How about dealing with the words as they are, instead of assuming something that aint there?

My point is muslims make babies more than christians do, nothing more, nothing less. ***IF*** that trend continues, then eventually we will live in a mostly islamic country.

There just plain facts and logic.

143394[/snapback]

So your point is what I interpreted it as. Strange. Especially as you mouthed off at me for 'assuming somethign that wasn't there.'

It would take a considerable length of time, centuries, without major demographic changes for Islam to replace Christianity as the main religion. Will this happen? I suspect that our society will become decreasingly secularies including seocnd and third generation immigrants. In other words, Islamic culture will deteriorate in the same ways Christianity is doing so at the moment.

I make these conclusions ffom the anecdotal evidence of Asian friends from different generations. The longer the family has been settled in the country the more westernised and secularised their children/grandchildren tend to be.

I have no doubts that the current spread of terrorism can do nothing but speed up this process.

[lush]

So your point is what I interpreted it as. Strange. Especially as you mouthed off at me for 'assuming somethign that wasn't there.'

It would take a considerable length of time, centuries, without major demographic changes for Islam to replace Christianity as the main religion. Will this happen?

I suspect that our society will become decreasingly secularies including seocnd and third generation immigrants. In other words, Islamic culture will deteriorate in the same ways Christianity is doing so at the moment.

I make these conclusions ffom the anecdotal evidence of Asian friends from different generations. The longer the family has been settled in the country the more westernised and secularised their children/grandchildren tend to be.

I have no doubts that the current spread of terrorism can do nothing but speed up this process.

143429[/snapback]

I dont understand your first point. why should it be strange? You did assume, you assumed wrong. `mouthed off`, you read my words as if im being nasty, how can you provide a balanced argument if your doing this?

When you consider that very few people are dedicated christians, maybe not.

Im not so sure muslims feel their religious belief is weak. I see them as very very dedicated individuals, of which some of them commit suicide in the name of Islam. Christians here would never even consider doing that.

Yes their children do participate in a western culture, and thats great. I dont see enough doing that, which worries me a little, particuly afer 7/7.

`speed up`, your having a larf mate, more like the opposite

[TrickyTrev]

`speed up`, your having a larf mate, more like the opposite rolleyes.gif

I really can't see it doing anything but have a negative effect for the religion of Islam. If you were a wathering Islamist battling with your faith and you saw things liek this being done in its name woulkd you want to follow? I know I wouldn't?

(I need to stress that I don't see the spread of Islam or people having faith as a negative or a positive things, its neutrel, I just feel it will be in decline)

You did assume, you assumed wrong.

No I didn't. You were making the point I thought you were making. That we could become an Islamic country and would do at present rates.

I see them as very very dedicated individuals, of which some of them commit suicide in the name of Islam. Christians here would never even consider doing that.

It might not be suicide but people in Northern Ireland have been willing to take lives in the name of their religion. Religious extremism exists in all religions. I really don't think you can measure dedication to the religion by willingness to commit suicide. These are a few sick individuals totally seperate tot he majority of people that make up the whole religios body.

Yes their children do participate in a western culture, and thats great. I dont see enough doing that, which worries me a little, particuly afer 7/7

I 100% agree, we need greater intergration and assimilation in our country.

We are not going to achieve this whilst people are made to feel alienated for their religious beliefs or skin colours. If I were a young Muslim coming itno this country right now I would fidn it hard to intergrate into a society that despises my rligion and most probably my race.

On top of this we need greater education in schools on religion. Not the boring indocrantion we are currently fed. A knowledge of the real beliefs of different religions would be beneficial for everyone.

Islamic groups and mosques also have a greater role to play. The 'radical' clerics should be more strictly monitiored and positive communitty schemes should be common place. Rather than demanding segregated schools a culture of intergration must be encouraged from with in.

[Thracian]

That chart shows that Muslim families are more likely to have children than other religions.

It does not change the fact they are in a huge minority, your quote....

I wonder if Islamic law will become our law some day?

Double the amount of percentage birth rate is from Islamic families comparerd to christian families.

...made it sound as if there were mroe Muslim children being born than Christian children . I read that as you trying to suggest we were being taken over in some way. What else could your point be? Damn those Muslim families for wanting to bring up children in a family environment? I doubt it.

143285[/snapback]

What a strange way your mind works.

How about dealing with the words as they are, instead of assuming something that aint there?

My point is muslims make babies more than christians do, nothing more, nothing less. ***IF*** that trend continues, then eventually we will live in a mostly islamic country.

There just plain facts and logic.

143394[/snapback]

So your point is what I interpreted it as. Strange. Especially as you mouthed off at me for 'assuming somethign that wasn't there.'

It would take a considerable length of time, centuries, without major demographic changes for Islam to replace Christianity as the main religion. Will this happen? I suspect that our society will become decreasingly secularies including seocnd and third generation immigrants. In other words, Islamic culture will deteriorate in the same ways Christianity is doing so at the moment.

I make these conclusions ffom the anecdotal evidence of Asian friends from different generations. The longer the family has been settled in the country the more westernised and secularised their children/grandchildren tend to be.

I have no doubts that the current spread of terrorism can do nothing but speed up this process.

143429[/snapback]

Interesting post and I agree that the waves of terrorism, not just here but elsewhere offer the greatest opportunity of recent times for us to demonstrate and celebrate all that is worthwhile in our country - the freedoms, the tolerance, the generosity, the willingness to help the poor, to heal the sick, to educate, to respect and to integrate with others, to question, to explore and to enjoy (a big word that).

I wonder though whether you are right to say that Christianity is still declining. Perhaps it is regaining momentum now with a small rather than a large C.

The Church (and such things as Church services) may have lost impact for both spiritual and social reasons but its servants and supporters still shout loudly and work diligently in support of the poor, sick and the starving around the world for instance.

But it is the "small c" Christianity comes over all the time when I speak with young people and, indeed, when I read these threads.

So many young people are tolerant of different viewpoints, denounce violence and cruelty (both to people and to animals), believe in helping one another, send get well cards to injured players, believe in the values of hard work and study, in celebrating life and so much more.

Indeed there is so much natural "small c" Christianity among young people that I have great faith in the future of this country and the chances of decency prevailing over evil and the contrived self-serving dogma that so often goes with it.

Providing, of course, that policemen don't keep shooting potentially innocent people.

[lush]

I really can't see it doing anything but have a negative effect for the religion of Islam. If you were a wathering Islamist battling with your faith and you saw things liek this being done in its name woulkd you want to follow? I know I wouldn't?

Its interesting you say that, because just about everyone is saying these murders have `nothing` to do with Islam. Are you stating otherwise?

No I didn't. You were making the point I thought you were making. That we could become an Islamic country and would do at present rates.

I replied to this:

"I read that as you trying to suggest we were being taken over in some way."

You have a point.

It might not be suicide but people in Northern Ireland have been willing to take lives in the name of their religion. Religious extremism exists in all religions. I really don't think you can measure dedication to the religion by willingness to commit suicide. These are a few sick individuals totally seperate tot he majority of people that make up the whole religios body.

This is England...if your willing to end your life to a cause, thats dedication.

Islam says, slay the pagans, and fight those of the unbelievers. If them statements dont mean bad, then what a silly load of idiots muslims are.

I 100% agree, we need greater intergration and assimilation in our country.

We are not going to achieve this whilst people are made to feel alienated for their religious beliefs or skin colours. If I were a young Muslim coming itno this country right now I would fidn it hard to intergrate into a society that despises my rligion and most probably my race.

Its not just those entering our country, its also the indigenous population that were here before them.

When our society has a black and asian police and teacher associations, and not a white version, and a gay police association, and not a hetrosexual one, then our society is openly racist and sexist to white and hetrosexual people, that is wrong.

On top of this we need greater education in schools on religion.

Why?

Islamic groups and mosques also have a greater role to play. The 'radical' clerics should be more strictly monitiored and positive communitty schemes should be common place. Rather than demanding segregated schools a culture of intergration must be encouraged from with in.

Absolutely. On the one hand, muslims complain they dont get a fair deal, and as soon as they can get something exclusively, they dont consider sharing.

143510[/snapback]

[Thracian]

I really can't see it doing anything but have a negative effect for the religion of Islam. If you were a wathering Islamist battling with your faith and you saw things liek this being done in its name woulkd you want to follow? I know I wouldn't?

Its interesting you say that, because just about everyone is saying these murders have `nothing` to do with Islam. Are you stating otherwise?

No I didn't. You were making the point I thought you were making. That we could become an Islamic country and would do at present rates.

I replied to this:

"I read that as you trying to suggest we were being taken over in some way."

You have a point.

It might not be suicide but people in Northern Ireland have been willing to take lives in the name of their religion. Religious extremism exists in all religions. I really don't think you can measure dedication to the religion by willingness to commit suicide. These are a few sick individuals totally seperate tot he majority of people that make up the whole religios body.

This is England...if your willing to end your life to a cause, thats dedication.

Islam says, slay the pagans, and fight those of the unbelievers. If them statements dont mean bad, then what a silly load of idiots muslims are.

I 100% agree, we need greater intergration and assimilation in our country.

We are not going to achieve this whilst people are made to feel alienated for their religious beliefs or skin colours. If I were a young Muslim coming itno this country right now I would fidn it hard to intergrate into a society that despises my rligion and most probably my race.

Its not just those entering our country, its also the indigenous population that were here before them.

When our society has a black and asian police and teacher associations, and not a white version, and a gay police association, and not a hetrosexual one, then our society is openly racist and sexist to white and hetrosexual people, that is wrong.

On top of this we need greater education in schools on religion.

Why?

Islamic groups and mosques also have a greater role to play. The 'radical' clerics should be more strictly monitiored and positive communitty schemes should be common place. Rather than demanding segregated schools a culture of intergration must be encouraged from with in.

Absolutely. On the one hand, muslims complain they dont get a fair deal, and as soon as they can get something exclusively, they dont consider sharing.

143510[/snapback]

143542[/snapback]

Such is built into the whole creed of Islam. Convert, advance, convert, advance, spread the word until it covers the earth, accepting non other.

And will that prove the Achilles heel? Will Islam prove to be a religion that founders on its own fundamental intolerance?.

Some young people may have had their minds turned but far more may end up embracing western values of freedom, forgiveness, respect for life, respect for others etc, especially after seeing so many of their own "brothers" slaughtered.

And only when that happens (as it already has to some extent), when Muslims walk side by side with Christians in a spirit of mutual goodwill, will lasting respect for Islam be finally earned rather than demanded or enforced. Hopefully then, a kinder interpretation of Islamic law will prevail.

[lush]

And only when that happens (as it already has to some extent), when Muslims walk side by side with Christians in a spirit of mutual goodwill

Can you elaberate as to how that could/will happen?

will lasting respect for Islam be finally earned rather than demanded or enforced. Hopefully then, a kinder interpretation of Islamic law will prevail.

Do you mean that those who follow Islam, will change the koran`s words to mean nice? I dont think that`ll happen.

143548[/snapback]

[Thracian]

And only when that happens (as it already has to some extent), when Muslims walk side by side with Christians in a spirit of mutual goodwill

Can you elaberate as to how that could/will happen?

will lasting respect for Islam be finally earned rather than demanded or enforced. Hopefully then, a kinder interpretation of Islamic law will prevail.

Do you mean that those who follow Islam, will change the koran`s words to mean nice? I dont think that`ll happen.

143548[/snapback]

143622[/snapback]

There are many moderate supporters of Islam and some have been brave enough to make their views known. All words are subject to interpretation. Loss of support is serious to any religion and historically provokes a change of stance (or interpretation if you like) .

[lush]

And only when that happens (as it already has to some extent), when Muslims walk side by side with Christians in a spirit of mutual goodwill

Can you elaberate as to how that could/will happen?

will lasting respect for Islam be finally earned rather than demanded or enforced. Hopefully then, a kinder interpretation of Islamic law will prevail.

Do you mean that those who follow Islam, will change the koran`s words to mean nice? I dont think that`ll happen.

143548[/snapback]

143622[/snapback]

There are many moderate supporters of Islam and some have been brave enough to make their views known. All words are subject to interpretation. Loss of support is serious to any religion and historically provokes a change of stance (or interpretation if you like) .

143628[/snapback]

Not quite with you mate. I understand the difference in interpretation of words, but how can a christian accept the anti-christian, islamic slaughter of sheep. How can they walk the same bricks and mortar?

And are you suggesting that the mostly moderate muslims will understand the evil`s in which the islamic faith can be interpreted to allow their faith to somewhat die in order for a more atheist society to grow together?

[TrickyTrev]

And only when that happens (as it already has to some extent), when Muslims walk side by side with Christians in a spirit of mutual goodwill

Can you elaberate as to how that could/will happen?

will lasting respect for Islam be finally earned rather than demanded or enforced. Hopefully then, a kinder interpretation of Islamic law will prevail.

Do you mean that those who follow Islam, will change the koran`s words to mean nice? I dont think that`ll happen.

143548[/snapback]

143622[/snapback]

There are many moderate supporters of Islam and some have been brave enough to make their views known. All words are subject to interpretation. Loss of support is serious to any religion and historically provokes a change of stance (or interpretation if you like) .

143628[/snapback]

Not quite with you mate. I understand the difference in interpretation of words, but how can a christian accept the anti-christian, islamic slaughter of sheep. How can they walk the same bricks and mortar?

And are you suggesting that the mostly moderate muslims will understand the evil`s in which the islamic faith can be interpreted to allow their faith to somewhat die in order for a more atheist society to grow together?

143660[/snapback]

He is syaing that a moderate interpretation of Islam will prevail. Just like the bloody history of the Christian Church and fundamentalist interpretations of the antagonistic old testament have become less popular in British culture.

[Thracian]

And only when that happens (as it already has to some extent), when Muslims walk side by side with Christians in a spirit of mutual goodwill

Can you elaberate as to how that could/will happen?

will lasting respect for Islam be finally earned rather than demanded or enforced. Hopefully then, a kinder interpretation of Islamic law will prevail.

Do you mean that those who follow Islam, will change the koran`s words to mean nice? I dont think that`ll happen.

143548[/snapback]

143622[/snapback]

There are many moderate supporters of Islam and some have been brave enough to make their views known. All words are subject to interpretation. Loss of support is serious to any religion and historically provokes a change of stance (or interpretation if you like) .

143628[/snapback]

Not quite with you mate. I understand the difference in interpretation of words, but how can a christian accept the anti-christian, islamic slaughter of sheep. How can they walk the same bricks and mortar?

And are you suggesting that the mostly moderate muslims will understand the evil`s in which the islamic faith can be interpreted to allow their faith to somewhat die in order for a more atheist society to grow together?

143660[/snapback]

He is syaing that a moderate interpretation of Islam will prevail. Just like the bloody history of the Christian Church and fundamentalist interpretations of the antagonistic old testament have become less popular in British culture.

143810[/snapback]

Thankyou Tricky Trev ... my meaning exactly.

[lush]

He is syaing that a moderate interpretation of Islam will prevail. Just like the bloody history of the Christian Church and fundamentalist interpretations of the antagonistic old testament have become less popular in British culture.

143810[/snapback]

COOL.

I`d like to know whats moderate about:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.â€Â

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercyâ€â€a fierce slaughterâ€â€murdered, a horrible murdering .â€Â

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly .â€Â

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war .â€Â

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes .â€Â

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.â€Â

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.â€Â

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.â€Â

Qur’an 9:12 “If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.â€Â

Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah’s Cause).â€Â

...or will the moderates change the words

[Thracian]

He is syaing that a moderate interpretation of Islam will prevail. Just like the bloody history of the Christian Church and fundamentalist interpretations of the antagonistic old testament have become less popular in British culture.

143810[/snapback]

COOL.

I`d like to know whats moderate about:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.â€Â

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercyâ€â€a fierce slaughterâ€â€murdered, a horrible murdering .â€Â

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly .â€Â

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war .â€Â

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes .â€Â

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.â€Â

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.â€Â

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.â€Â

Qur’an 9:12 “If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.â€Â

Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah’s Cause).â€Â

...or will the moderates change the words

143827[/snapback]

There have always been great wars between religions and at the time these words were written the attrocities described in your quotes were commonplace. Pity you don't quote descriptions of Guy Fawkes' fate, or the diaries of a Tower of London torturer, or the monstrous religious crimes of the Inquisition.

Radicals will often quote scripture to justify extremism but, as I said, there are many, many demonstrably peaceful and peace-promoting Muslims, and much of the above seems to refer to times of warfare, times of inflamed passions, times of anger.

Such is again the case now because, many who live in Afghanistan and Iraq are not happy to see their country pounded by outsiders (just as we don't like the consequences).

When I spoke earlier of walking together with respect it was a reflection of my hope and belief that the people of Peace will prove stronger than the radicals.

I have Muslim neighbours. They have been good neighbours. They work hard, live decent lives and love their children.

Are you suggesting I should hate them (and others like them) because some youngsters have been brainwashed (or inspired) into taking the quotes you relate out of time/context or too literally or in the mistaken belief that they will further promote/defend the cause of Islam?.

I don't hate them but I do believe the moderate Muslims should be seen to help us fight for the cause of peace.

Personally I have grave doubts about the morality of the underlying aims of all protagonists in the wicked, wasteful and seemingly endless wars between the Muslims and the West.

But I shall say no more cos, I already feel guilty for probably ruining Babylon's tea.

[Rincewind]

We only have to look at our own history and Richard 1st (Lionheart) to see our own part in atrocities. His Crusaders burnt towns to the ground and destroyed scriptures dating thousands of years old. Is it it any wonder that Westerners are not welcome in some parts. Caught the end of Panarama last night. It was about the poppy growers in Afghanastan. It's been their main crop for years. America and Britain are putting pressure for it to stop but the alternatives are not being introduced quick enough so it carries on.. The farmers were saying they know nothing of the harm it does they just want to be able to feed their families. My point being is that to the extremists this is another case of Westerners poking their nose in where its not wanted. I understand that its the drug barons that make the profit and opium causes suffering here and in the US but to simple farmers their next meal is more important.

[TrickyTrev]

He is syaing that a moderate interpretation of Islam will prevail. Just like the bloody history of the Christian Church and fundamentalist interpretations of the antagonistic old testament have become less popular in British culture.

143810[/snapback]

COOL.

I`d like to know whats moderate about:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.â€Â

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercyâ€â€a fierce slaughterâ€â€murdered, a horrible murdering .â€Â

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly .â€Â

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war .â€Â

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes .â€Â

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.â€Â

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.â€Â

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.â€Â

Qur’an 9:12 “If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.â€Â

Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah’s Cause).â€Â

...or will the moderates change the words

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There have always been great wars between religions and at the time these words were written the attrocities described in your quotes were commonplace. Pity you don't quote descriptions of Guy Fawkes' fate, or the diaries of a Tower of London torturer, or the monstrous religious crimes of the Inquisition.

Radicals will often quote scripture to justify extremism but, as I said, there are many, many demonstrably peaceful and peace-promoting Muslims, and much of the above seems to refer to times of warfare, times of inflamed passions, times of anger.

Such is again the case now because, many who live in Afghanistan and Iraq are not happy to see their country pounded by outsiders (just as we don't like the consequences).

When I spoke earlier of walking together with respect it was a reflection of my hope and belief that the people of Peace will prove stronger than the radicals.

I have Muslim neighbours. They have been good neighbours. They work hard, live decent lives and love their children.

Are you suggesting I should hate them (and others like them) because some youngsters have been brainwashed (or inspired) into taking the quotes you relate out of time/context or too literally or in the mistaken belief that they will further promote/defend the cause of Islam?.

I don't hate them but I do believe the moderate Muslims should be seen to help us fight for the cause of peace.

Personally I have grave doubts about the morality of the underlying aims of all protagonists in the wicked, wasteful and seemingly endless wars between the Muslims and the West.

But I shall say no more cos, I already feel guilty for probably ruining Babylon's tea.

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I agree with most of this.

I will just add that I won't allow the actions of a few individuals and a few quotes doing the rounds ont he internet to alter my perception of Islam. It is at the end of the day a religion, so I have little or no time for it, but my knowledge of the people who follow it is that they are largely peaceful, loving people with many of the same values as you and me.

Me hating their religion will achieve nothing, I will tolerate anyones right to believe in what they will as long as it does not threaten my security. I recognise that billions of muslims practice their faith peacefully and should be allowed to do so, whether I agree with it or not.

(PS I am no theologian but I am fairly sure that if you looked through certain chapters of the Bible you would find similary antagonistic quotes, anti-semiticism is no accident.)

[lush]

Pity you don't quote descriptions of Guy Fawkes' fate, or the diaries of a Tower of London torturer, or the monstrous religious crimes of the Inquisition.

I would if we were talking about them.

Radicals will often quote scripture to justify extremism but, as I said, there are many, many demonstrably peaceful and peace-promoting Muslims, and much of the above seems to refer to times of warfare, times of inflamed passions,  times of anger.

No doubt there are `peace promoting muslims`, BUT they adhere to evil scripture.

I would have no problem with the above people, if they believed in something more peacefull. As it is, they dont, they believe in something very very bad, and completely alien to civilised thinking.

Let us ask the Islamic leaders in our country, to change their evil beliefs?

Such is again the case now because, many who live in Afghanistan and Iraq are not happy to see their country pounded by outsiders (just as we don't like the consequences).

I agree, the war is wrong, you need to lobby blair on this, not me.

When I spoke earlier of walking together with respect it was a reflection of my hope and belief that the people of Peace will prove stronger than the radicals.

I have Muslim neighbours. They have been good neighbours. They work hard, live decent lives and love their children.

Are you suggesting I should hate them (and others like them) because some youngsters have been brainwashed (or inspired) into taking the quotes you relate out of time/context or too literally or in the mistaken belief that they will further promote/defend the cause of Islam?.

I don't hate them but I do believe the moderate Muslims should be seen to help us fight for the cause of peace.

I have no doubt that most muslims are peacefull, but they adhere to evil scripture.

Im suggesting that these peacefull people understand what the hell they believe in.

Is it ok to believe in evil, no, so why do they follow scripture that states just that?

Maybe we should ban bad ideas?

You cant fight for peace when you applaude evil.

Personally I have grave doubts about the morality of the underlying aims of all protagonists in the wicked, wasteful and seemingly endless wars between the Muslims and the West.

`morality`, you do suprise me Thracian. I was thinking of you as someone that made sense on a regular basis mate.

Im desperately hoping you didnt mean to say that?

But I shall say no more cos, I already feel guilty for probably ruining Babylon's tea.

143883[/snapback]

[lush]

Caught the end of Panarama last night. It was about the poppy growers in Afghanastan. It's been their main crop for years.

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75% of the heroin in britain comes from Afganistan.