marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Wasn't it 'our normal attacking game' when we went away to Charlton and Blackburn near the start of the season and lost? Yes, we had plenty of possession but were hit with sucker punches on both occasions. This has been a feature of this season Dave.. Being hit with 'sucker punches', 'wonder goals' 'sneaky late ones' etc etc. I put to you that we have only conceded relatively few goals because, pure and simple, Wes Morgan has turned out to be such a good player. Without him in the side, I suggest we'd have conceded considerably more goals. We won't agree on this. My philosophy would be to tighten up away from home. To control the midfield better and to give those with flair the ability to get forward by utilising a player to anchor the midfield. To play simply a defensive role in the side and allow the attackers to actually attack. As I've thought all season, this would help to achieve two things... It would stop us conceding the goals from the edge of the area that wr have done and may actually encourage more quicker forward momentum on the counter attack, because the midfielders know that someone is holding. The losses you mention were very early doors, we had a new team, a new style of play and we were still trying at that point to find a way to get Knockaert into the side. And despite those losses we were top of the table in mid October....... Most of the 'sucker punches, etc, etc,' have come when we have been trying to play defensively, either setting up that way or sitting back on a lead, not when we have been dominating play. I know you don't see it that way Col but the evidence shows that when we play anything other than our normal aggressive style, we play poorly and drop points, there is absolutely no way that continuing down that road will get us anywhere. We need to play to our strengths and the acquisition of Wood and now Kane gives us the opportunity to do just that, I just hope that NFP sees the light, even if you don't. Sorry Col, I am not having a go and I know your views are honestly held but as I have pointed out many times, the team that we have is far better going forward than setting up to contain. We could set up more solidly if we had different players but then that would have been a completely different season....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 The losses you mention were very early doors, we had a new team, a new style of play and we were still trying at that point to find a way to get Knockaert into the side. And despite those losses we were top of the table in mid October....... Most of the 'sucker punches, etc, etc,' have come when we have been trying to play defensively, either setting up that way or sitting back on a lead, not when we have been dominating play. I know you don't see it that way Col but the evidence shows that when we play anything other than our normal aggressive style, we play poorly and drop points, there is absolutely no way that continuing down that road will get us anywhere. We need to play to our strengths and the acquisition of Wood and now Kane gives us the opportunity to do just that, I just hope that NFP sees the light, even if you don't. Sorry Col, I am not having a go and I know your views are honestly held but as I have pointed out many times, the team that we have is far better going forward than setting up to contain. We could set up more solidly if we had different players but then that would have been a completely different season....... I agree with you completely Dave that we have to play who we have at the club. We can 'wish list' for ever. However, the Jan transfer window has just gone and I am surprised we didn't bring in another midfielder. I went on record early doors I think, to say that our home form would not be a problem this season, but it would be away from home I had concerns. My solution was a more physically tough defensive minded midfielder. Of course, the usual suspects took the piss and then proferred little in the way of a solution themselves. You didn't so fair play to you.... You've stuck with the 'get at em' thing both home and away. However, just reading the stats re home form v away form I suggest, has proven, at least so far, that I was correct in this assertion. My biggest worry with Nige is that the away form thing just hasn't been addressed. I thought he'd sort this out. Compared to our away form in his first tenure (when we obtained mainly draws) this season has been very different. There's still time, who knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 I think that defensive mids should always try to drive teams forward when they have the ball with their power, always sitting behind the more advanced midfielders (in our case drinky, Marshall and knocky) and give them another option when on the ball. Would Keane have the experience to get back into position quickly if we lose possession if he gets forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 I agree with you completely Dave that we have to play who we have at the club. We can 'wish list' for ever. However, the Jan transfer window has just gone and I am surprised we didn't bring in another midfielder. I went on record early doors I think, to say that our home form would not be a problem this season, but it would be away from home I had concerns. My solution was a more physically tough defensive minded midfielder. Of course, the usual suspects took the piss and then proferred little in the way of a solution themselves. You didn't so fair play to you.... You've stuck with the 'get at em' thing both home and away. However, just reading the stats re home form v away form I suggest, has proven, at least so far, that I was correct in this assertion. My biggest worry with Nige is that the away form thing just hasn't been addressed. I thought he'd sort this out. Compared to our away form in his first tenure (when we obtained mainly draws) this season has been very different. There's still time, who knows... You have developed your suggestion of an 'anchor man' midfielder clearly and articulately throughout the season, but as I said above, had we gone down that route it would have been a different team and probably a very different season...... However, we are where we are, 12 games to go and there is no point in overthinking this. The question is simple, what do we do in those next 12 games? I've nailed my colours to the mast regarding what I think we should do, I would be happy to read your ideas, keep it short though, (under 1000 words)......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 You have developed your suggestion of an 'anchor man' midfielder clearly and articulately throughout the season, but as I said above, had we gone down that route it would have been a different team and probably a very different season...... However, we are where we are, 12 games to go and there is no point in overthinking this. The question is simple, what do we do in those next 12 games? I've nailed my colours to the mast regarding what I think we should do, I would be happy to read your ideas, keep it short though, (under 1000 words)......... I am with Marbella here, I would much rather see us lose like we did at Blackburn, Wolves and Charlton, where we took the game to them for long periods, than sit back, not take our chances and get hit with a suckerpunch. We created a lot more chances in those games than we did against Ipswich and Blackpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 I am with Marbella here, I would much rather see us lose like we did at Blackburn, Wolves and Charlton, where we took the game to them for long periods, than sit back, not take our chances and get hit with a suckerpunch. We created a lot more chances in those games than we did against Ipswich and Blackpool. ? I'm not suggesting we 'sit back' I'm suggesting a midfielder whose only role is to hold and mop-up. Thus giving licence to the two midfielders in front of him to get forward quickly. My suggestion is that this would see us create more chances, not less. For examples, see Leicester City with Lennon in the side, Man City with DeJong in the side, Barcelona with Mascherano in the side or even QPR in their Championship season with Derry in the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 ? I'm not suggesting we 'sit back' I'm suggesting a midfielder whose only role is to hold and mop-up. Thus giving licence to the two midfielders in front of him to get forward quickly. My suggestion is that this would see us create more chances, not less. For examples, see Leicester City with Lennon in the side, Man City with DeJong in the side, Barcelona with Mascherano in the side or even QPR in their Championship season with Derry in the side. But who are you sacrificing to play this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 ? I'm not suggesting we 'sit back' I'm suggesting a midfielder whose only role is to hold and mop-up. Thus giving licence to the two midfielders in front of him to get forward quickly. My suggestion is that this would see us create more chances, not less. For examples, see Leicester City with Lennon in the side, Man City with DeJong in the side, Barcelona with Mascherano in the side or even QPR in their Championship season with Derry in the side. So, how are we going to set up with such a player, should we have one of course......? Do we lose a striker, a wide man or go 3 at the back..... Not that NFP would allow any such thing but I would be interested, as always, to see your suggestions...... Oooops, sorry mon capitaine...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 But who are you sacrificing to play this way? One of the strikers..... DeLaet. Morgan. Keane. Konch James/ DM King. Drinky Marshall Knocky Wood/Nuge With Drinky/King getting forward to link up play with the two attacking wider players. Marshall and Knocky aren't wingers in this formation. They'd have licence to come into the middle. James/DM sits... Stays put. Lennon rarely ventured into the opposition half. He didn't need to.. I'd play this way away from home. At home, we're fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smelly-pooface1 Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 its fine when james plays ahead of king, king is wank,weak and ineffective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatness_Since_1884 Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Posted something about tactics away from home yesterday but I think it would fit in here. Tactically speaking, I would argue Pearson is changing his approach too much away from home. I don't like the rigid 4-4-2 we play. At home we don't seem to play that way. The wide men, in particular Knocky, have a lot more freedom to roam from their wings at the KP but not away. That for me is a big factor in both his and our difference in performance home and away. Away from home we set up playing banks of 4 and it works in terms of stopping the other team scoring (best defence on the road this year) and some might say that is sensible and I agree to a point. However, you cannot tie players like Knockaert down and assign them a fixed position because it limits their ability to influence games. He is best when he is allowed to find the space to play wherever he wants and the opposition don't know what he's about to do next. He does it brilliantly at the KP but isn't allowed to away from home. At the start of the season we played some wonderful football away from home because we set out with a formation that was flexible, fluid and allowed for fast football. Now it's predictable and strikers are starved of service. I just wonder whether NP was scarred by the manor in which we lost our first 3 away games and felt he needed to tighten up. Again, to an extent he was right but now I feel he's gone too far the other way and I want him to in fact stop altering the tactics away from home. Wins are what we need and allowing our creative players the licence to create will be the best chance of doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Posted something about tactics away from home yesterday but I think it would fit in here. Tactically speaking, I would argue Pearson is changing his approach too much away from home. I don't like the rigid 4-4-2 we play. At home we don't seem to play that way. The wide men, in particular Knocky, have a lot more freedom to roam from their wings at the KP but not away. That for me is a big factor in both his and our difference in performance home and away. Away from home we set up playing banks of 4 and it works in terms of stopping the other team scoring (best defence on the road this year) and some might say that is sensible and I agree to a point. However, you cannot tie players like Knockaert down and assign them a fixed position because it limits their ability to influence games. He is best when he is allowed to find the space to play wherever he wants and the opposition don't know what he's about to do next. He does it brilliantly at the KP but isn't allowed to away from home. At the start of the season we played some wonderful football away from home because we set out with a formation that was flexible, fluid and allowed for fast football. Now it's predictable and strikers are starved of service. I just wonder whether NP was scarred by the manor in which we lost our first 3 away games and felt he needed to tighten up. Again, to an extent he was right but now I feel he's gone too far the other way and I want him to in fact stop altering the tactics away from home. Wins are what we need and allowing our creative players the licence to create will be the best chance of doing that. I think you are completely spot on in terms of letting the attack minded players attack. In a flat 4-4-2 the expectation is that they defend too.. If Nige wants to continue this way I'd not play Knocky. I think Dyer is better at getting back to defend than Knocky. However, not utilising a formation which absolutely gets the best out of Knocky I think is unforgivable really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 One of the strikers..... DeLaet. Morgan. Keane. Konch James/ DM King. Drinky Marshall Knocky Wood/Nuge With Drinky/King getting forward to link up play with the two attacking wider players. Marshall and Knocky aren't wingers in this formation. They'd have licence to come into the middle. James/DM sits... Stays put. Lennon rarely ventured into the opposition half. He didn't need to.. I'd play this way away from home. At home, we're fine. Fair enough..... Don't agree though...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Posted something about tactics away from home yesterday but I think it would fit in here. Tactically speaking, I would argue Pearson is changing his approach too much away from home. I don't like the rigid 4-4-2 we play. At home we don't seem to play that way. The wide men, in particular Knocky, have a lot more freedom to roam from their wings at the KP but not away. That for me is a big factor in both his and our difference in performance home and away. Away from home we set up playing banks of 4 and it works in terms of stopping the other team scoring (best defence on the road this year) and some might say that is sensible and I agree to a point. However, you cannot tie players like Knockaert down and assign them a fixed position because it limits their ability to influence games. He is best when he is allowed to find the space to play wherever he wants and the opposition don't know what he's about to do next. He does it brilliantly at the KP but isn't allowed to away from home. At the start of the season we played some wonderful football away from home because we set out with a formation that was flexible, fluid and allowed for fast football. Now it's predictable and strikers are starved of service. I just wonder whether NP was scarred by the manor in which we lost our first 3 away games and felt he needed to tighten up. Again, to an extent he was right but now I feel he's gone too far the other way and I want him to in fact stop altering the tactics away from home. Wins are what we need and allowing our creative players the licence to create will be the best chance of doing that. Correct, we are far more positive at home and it mostly works well, we should be be more positive away...... and 'some' might be wrong, it is not sensible, look at our away record...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 One of the strikers..... DeLaet. Morgan. Keane. Konch James/ DM King. Drinky Marshall Knocky Wood/Nuge With Drinky/King getting forward to link up play with the two attacking wider players. Marshall and Knocky aren't wingers in this formation. They'd have licence to come into the middle. James/DM sits... Stays put. Lennon rarely ventured into the opposition half. He didn't need to.. I'd play this way away from home. At home, we're fine. I just couldn't agree to sacrificing a forward for a defensive minded midfield player, when our problem has been scoring away from home. If it was a 4 1 3 2, with the DM playing as a sweeper across the back 4 covering for RDL and Konch getting forward, Knocky, Marshall and Drinkwater/King/James as the midfield 3 and Nuge and Wood up front, then I would be more inclined to include a DM. Knocky and Marshall are both effective in the middle and happy to drift out wide, and would be freed up to do that by a sweeper, Drinkwater/King/James keeping it all ticking over and holding the middle, then 2 strikers up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan the fox Posted 4 March 2013 Author Share Posted 4 March 2013 Kasper De late morgan st ledger konch Keane King drinky Knocky Nugent woods simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC_FAN_1995 Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 We're missing James alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatness_Since_1884 Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Correct, we are far more positive at home and it mostly works well, we should be be more positive away...... and 'some' might be wrong, it is not sensible, look at our away record...... I think it was sensible to an extent. There was no way we could've carried on playing the type of football away we did at the start because we left ourselves far too open and we did need to tighten up. However I now feel we've gone too far and look like we won't score away from home and need to readress the balance by being more positive. But on the whole I do find myself siding with you over Col in terms of wanting less change rather than more. Also think it's great to have proper debate like this rather than the usual NP IS SHIT WE'RE ALL DOOMED guff that we normally get after a loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 I think it was sensible to an extent. There was no way we could've carried on playing the type of football away we did at the start because we left ourselves far too open and we did need to tighten up. However I now feel we've gone too far and look like we won't score away from home and need to readress the balance by being more positive. But on the whole I do find myself siding with you over Col in terms of wanting less change rather than more. Also think it's great to have proper debate like this rather than the usual NP IS SHIT WE'RE ALL DOOMED guff that we normally get after a loss Fair enough mate I respect your opinion. Dave posts some great stuff and he may well be right. At the end of the day we all want the same thing anyway... Success for the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 I think it was sensible to an extent. There was no way we could've carried on playing the type of football away we did at the start because we left ourselves far too open and we did need to tighten up. However I now feel we've gone too far and look like we won't score away from home and need to readress the balance by being more positive. But on the whole I do find myself siding with you over Col in terms of wanting less change rather than more. Also think it's great to have proper debate like this rather than the usual NP IS SHIT WE'RE ALL DOOMED guff that we normally get after a loss In order...... We did start far to open, with 2 men up and 2 men wide leaving far too much space in central areas. This was addressed by bring in Knockaert instead of Dyer and giving he and Marshall the freedom to roam..... Perhaps not perfect but good enough to get us top of the table in mid october...... Agreed, try and play the same way away from home, ie aggressive and attacking. Actually playing the same style home and away means we change nothing..... It's when we do change and try to contain the opposition that we mess up, this is exactly the point I have been making for a very long time....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 King/drinkwater are great at home, mainly because teams give our home record respect and sit back with the attitude of 'let's see you try and get through this'. Away from home we can still play a 4-4-2, although it would not be my preferred choice, but we would need one more defensive minded than the other. So far this season, king and drinkwater's roles in the team have been inseparable. Neither is given a defensive or attacking role, instead they both appear to be told by NP to 'do a bit of everything'. Adding a defensive midfielder will not result in us creating less chances, it is in fact likely to boost our creativity, when you look at the benefits of playing a defensive midfield player..... - The full-backs can get forward more as they know the two CB's and DM will cover. - The wingers are likely to be given more freedom, if the DM stays particularly close to the center backs. - It will also improve our inability to counter away from home, either by a) winning the ball back quicker or b) drawing the team onto us before winning it back and giving more players the freedom to break. When playing a player in a DM role, i do fell as though you need a player in the middle of the park who has a greater amount of creativity than anyone in our squad has. Someone who could play as a center forward, the likes of lee tomlin and george boyd who are flair players which play in a center forward slot, and is something we don't have. There are a number of ways we could line up..... ....................1 1 1 2........3.............4...........5 2...........3......4............5 2.........3....4...........5 6........7.............8...........9 6 6 ..........10...........11 7...........8.......9..........10 7 8 9 11 10 11 But unless you have the players in your squad to play with a DM, you will never know how successful it could be. Personally i would love us to line up with something like this next season.. ..............................Schmeichel ...de laet......morgan...................Shittu......Creswell .................................Trotter ...Marshall..........Tomlin.........Drinky.........Knocky .................................Wood Hey, i am realistic enough to know that there is a 99% chance we won't sign any of these players or play this way. But i just like to think that the above side makes us more physical and solid (morgan, shittu, trotter, wood), whilst still containing creative players (knockaert, marshall, drinky, tomlin) as well as full backs who will get forward and provide width (de laet and creswell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spittingfeathers Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Get Wellens back in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Oh dear, this thread is getting really silly now, picking sides consisting of players we don't have and will probably never play for us...... I'll start you off, Ronaldo, Messi............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 Oh dear, this thread is getting really silly now, picking sides consisting of players we don't have and will probably never play for us...... I'll start you off, Ronaldo, Messi............. shittu, trotter, creswell, tomlin - all realistic and would improve the side no end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 March 2013 Share Posted 4 March 2013 shittu, trotter, creswell, tomlin - all realistic and would improve the side no end. But still a complete fantasy, totally meaningless...... I asked Col earlier today a pretty specific question, I'll open it out to everyone....... We have 12 games left, what should we do in these games to give us the best chance of promotion? Any takers..........? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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