throne out

[Thracian]

I rarely watch amy BBC political programes now because I became so sick of their blatantly slanted and pro-Labour inteviewing so I wouldn't have noticed recent developments.

However, even if the leopard were to be changing its spots in a fit of pique, for reasons of credibility or for any other reason my central point is that the BBC shouldn't be biased it should be independent.

Conservative doctrinal bias is no more praiseworthy than Labour doctrinal bias.

[crazy horse]

i posted this in the other thread but you keep using non sequitur logic such as

aim of communism..............end of monarchy

aim of republicanism............end of monarchy

therefore republicanism = communism

not really true is it?

think again

you keep saying you want royalty accountable to the rule of law but they continually seem to evade it .

[Thracian]

i posted this in the other thread but you keep using non sequitur logic such as

aim of communism..............end of monarchy

aim of republicanism............end of monarchy

therefore republicanism = communism

not really true is it?

think again

you keep saying you want royalty accountable to the rule of law but they continually seem to evade it .

I don't recall saying that communism equals republicanism though there are powerful Peoples Republics which are supposedly communist states which you well know.

And as communism according to my dictionary is "Advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned etc" I think it fair to say that communists would happily campaign with non-communist republicans to end the monarchy.

Whether royals evade answering to the law, or are protected from being asked uncomfortable questions I don't know. But if that is the case you can probably guess as accurately as me how that can happen and who might be powerful enough to facilitate its happening.

Ironically, if true, that might not help the cause of the monarchy as an institution in the long run.

But if you think I'm daft enough to go down that particular road, forget it. I'm just an ordinary, inconsequential bloke. You need a lot of friends to stand opposite that corner. And who knows if the consequences of change would mean a better Britain anyway?

Moves to open that particular can were discussed quite recently and it has since gone deathly quiet on the subject. One has to assume there were compellingly sound reasons, though I'm sure I wouldn't like em..

[macbeth]

of course things have "gone quiet" but as you openly admit ;you no longer listen to organs such as bbc because you reason they are biased.........everywhere is quiet when you refuse to listen!

[Thracian]

of course things have "gone quiet" but as you openly admit ;you no longer listen to organs such as bbc because you reason they are biased.........everywhere is quiet when you refuse to listen!

I've listened to you haven't I?. Don't be so judgemental. I had a bellyfull the BBC alone (not organs such as) at one time. There was only so much you could stomach and I've been honest enough to admit it.

Are you saying - assuming you are not a political activist looking for material - that you revel in watching programmes which are totally biased against your own views or that you constantly buy newspapers which are diametrically opposed to your beliefs?.

I think I read pretty broadly considering - and have mentioned those books about China and Russia. I am quite sure you haven't read them but I don't use that fact to ridicule your opinion.

On balance, considering your comments about my not changing your point of view, I would say I have the more open viewpoint overall.

You, basically, have stuck to your idealogy but done nothing to actually answer any criticisms of or warnings about it. A familiar tactic with someone determined to play their part in promoting someone else's idea because it is safer and leaves one less open to counter attack.

When I extend an argument I know I'll be vulnerable and subject to criticism but it does help to test the solidity of the argument and therefore achieves the purpose of debate which is to examine all aspects and arrive the best and most defensible conclusion.

In this way, certain posters are forever pursuading me to adjust, moderate or even change many opinions.

All I've really asked you to do is to think about your ideology, take the trouble to examine how it works compared with the system it replaces and examine whether or not it is likely to result in a better Britain bearing in mind that Britain is a pretty good place for lots of people right now.

[Head Honcho]

I rarely watch amy BBC political programes now because I became so sick of their blatantly slanted and pro-Labour inteviewing so I wouldn't have noticed recent developments.

However, even if the leopard were to be changing its spots in a fit of pique, for reasons of credibility or for any other reason my central point is that the BBC shouldn't be biased it should be independent.

Conservative doctrinal bias is no more praiseworthy than Labour doctrinal bias.

Your right the BBC should be independent but recently they done a huge u-turn and this is highlighted by the amount of Anti-Labour stories the BBC have uncovered recently.

These revelations are not news to anyone in the know, it's all on the record and anybody who knows where to find it may, but as you said because of labour bias in the past were not brought to the attention of the public.

I'm amazed that Nick Robinson is allowed to be so biased.

The BBC news readers are even giving him loaded questions allowing him to blatantly slate the government with his answer.

[Ultra]

Jeremy Paxman and David Dimbleby are hardly pro-Labour either.

[macbeth]

some people see tendentious reporting every where; the bbc is not above critisism but in general i believe it to be fair

[macbeth]

thracian; a tribute

you may think i am intransigent and not open to reasoned argument , and on this and a few other issues i must admit i am

when younger i saw most things in fuzzy black and white but now most things are shades of grey

however the ones that remain in b& w are now more crystal clear ; and the idea of unelected unnaccountable tiers of government falls into this category

without wanting to get sidetracked foxhunting, stag hunting also falls into this category and no amount of emotive " loss of our national heritage ....blah blah blah.... foreigners do worse things blah blah............lots of jobs lost blah blah....englands lost heritage blah blah" will ever convince me otherwise ; i just know the idea of inherited power is wrong as i know that foxhunting is wrong !

and i am afraid that is all i ever hear when pro monarchist debate the issue always use the emotive rather than substance to back up their arguments

however i still must say thracian you have me given plenty to think about. good honest debate and well rounded ;

not so much on the eventual goal , but of ensuring that what eventually succeeds monarchy must be much more accountable, again thank you and i do mean that

perhaps we must just agree to differ but i really do respect your views and take on board your concerns which i do appreciate thanks.

[Thracian]

thracian; a tribute

you may think i am intransigent and not open to reasoned argument , and on this and a few other issues i must admit i am

when younger i saw most things in fuzzy black and white but now most things are shades of grey

however the ones that remain in b& w are now more crystal clear ; and the idea of unelected unnaccountable tiers of government falls into this category

without wanting to get sidetracked foxhunting, stag hunting also falls into this category and no amount of emotive " loss of our national heritage ....blah blah blah.... foreigners do worse things blah blah............lots of jobs lost blah blah....englands lost heritage blah blah" will ever convince me otherwise ; i just know the idea of inherited power is wrong as i know that foxhunting is wrong !

and i am afraid that is all i ever hear when pro monarchist debate the issue always use the emotive rather than substance to back up their arguments

however i still must say thracian you have me given plenty to think about. good honest debate and well rounded ;

not so much on the eventual goal , but of ensuring that what eventually succeeds monarchy must be much more accountable, again thank you and i do mean that

perhaps we must just agree to differ but i really do respect your views and take on board your concerns which i do appreciate thanks.

Your comments are welcomed.

But one small question. What about fishing?

Don't say fish don't suffer. They don't fight like hell just because they want to give fishermen some sport or because they really want to be someone's dinner.

As I warned, you have to question whether you're fighting for decency and a better world or whether you're being coerced into fighting a class war.

[Daggers]

How many existentialists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Fish.

[macbeth]

Your comments are welcomed.

But one small question. What about fishing?

Don't say fish don't suffer. They don't fight like hell just because they want to give fishermen some sport or because they really want to be someone's dinner.

As I warned, you have to question whether you're fighting for decency and a better world or whether you're being coerced into fighting a class war.

i think it is you who is now fishing with me as the intended catch nice one

i'm afraid the fish debate falls into my grey area and i'm sure you would be able to convice me either way you wanted on that one

good luck if you want to start a new thread though; i'd gladly join in

[Thracian]

One extended debate is plenty, thanks. Time to chill out with a beer or two

[macbeth]

Your comments are welcomed.

But one small question. What about fishing?

Don't say fish don't suffer. They don't fight like hell just because they want to give fishermen some sport or because they really want to be someone's dinner.

As I warned, you have to question whether you're fighting for decency and a better world or whether you're being coerced into fighting a class war.

i really could not help this

you were so concerned about the little fishes that i assumed you would equally concerned about our feathered friends

please write to this lady and voice your concerns and i hope your legendary powers of persusion prevails

please take this in the light hearted manner it was intended

[Rincewind]

I have only skimmed through the previous posts so I will won't go too deeply with my comments.

Firstly I would not say I am a Royalist. But it is not the Queen or her close family that I am against. What turns me off is all the cousins nephews nieces etc that go with the package. Even though some earn money independantly they still have 'priviliages' reside in stately homes and never need fill in a job application form further than 'I am related to the house of Windsor'

Jealous? Just a little, but it peeves me that they have these perks just because they are distant relatives to the monachy. After all it would take something bizare to happen before any become first in line. I don't begrudge the Queen living in a Palace but the Royal estates and land she and her family own is too much. In Sweden (I think) the Royal family live a simple life and even have bikes as transport. They like ours are figureheads but are more in tune with the 'common' people.

Now to a Republic. Fine we have a revolution and some great savior tells us how things are going to get better. Now where is he and his Leutenants going to live? It will have to be somewhere secure because there will be many Royalists out there wanting the Monachy back and will go to any lengths to get it. They will have bodyguards surrounding them and the cost will have to come out of the taxes. So it seems to me the average bloke on the street cannot win.

As with Diana, if there was a plot to kill her I'm sure there would have been a better way than just to crash a car and hope she dies from injuries. Did someone say to her before she got in 'Don't put your seatbelt on.?

It was her choice. An easier way if it was to be in acar crash, would to have an artic fuel tanker cut in front of them on a major road. A burst tyre or mechanical failure could have been blamed and with the right people on the scene evidence could have been planted. With the tunnel it was too soon after setting out and everything had to work out right. Too chancy.

These are only broad views. I accept the status quo as I don't know that other ways will be better. None of us know and I prefer just to live a simple life. It's like religion some people spend their whole life preaching about Heaven and the fires of Hell because it will earn them a place in Heaven. My thought process is that you were given a right to live so why devote the time to something that may or may not happen after you die? Lifes too short too get involved with causes.

[macbeth]

I have only skimmed through the previous posts so I will won't go too deeply with my comments.

Firstly I would not say I am a Royalist. But it is not the Queen or her close family that I am against. What turns me off is all the cousins nephews nieces etc that go with the package. Even though some earn money independantly they still have 'priviliages' reside in stately homes and never need fill in a job application form further than 'I am related to the house of Windsor'

Jealous? Just a little, but it peeves me that they have these perks just because they are distant relatives to the monachy. After all it would take something bizare to happen before any become first in line. I don't begrudge the Queen living in a Palace but the Royal estates and land she and her family own is too much. In Sweden (I think) the Royal family live a simple life and even have bikes as transport. They like ours are figureheads but are more in tune with the 'common' people.

Now to a Republic. Fine we have a revolution and some great savior tells us how things are going to get better. Now where is he and his Leutenants going to live? It will have to be somewhere secure because there will be many Royalists out there wanting the Monachy back and will go to any lengths to get it. They will have bodyguards surrounding them and the cost will have to come out of the taxes. So it seems to me the average bloke on the street cannot win.

As with Diana, if there was a plot to kill her I'm sure there would have been a better way than just to crash a car and hope she dies from injuries. Did someone say to her before she got in 'Don't put your seatbelt on.?

It was her choice. An easier way if it was to be in acar crash, would to have an artic fuel tanker cut in front of them on a major road. A burst tyre or mechanical failure could have been blamed and with the right people on the scene evidence could have been planted. With the tunnel it was too soon after setting out and everything had to work out right. Too chancy.

These are only broad views. I accept the status quo as I don't know that other ways will be better. None of us know and I prefer just to live a simple life. It's like religion some people spend their whole life preaching about Heaven and the fires of Hell because it will earn them a place in Heaven. My thought process is that you were given a right to live so why devote the time to something that may or may not happen after you die? Lifes too short too get involved with causes.

there you go again whipping up unbridled apathy

[Thracian]

i really could not help this

you were so concerned about the little fishes that i assumed you would equally concerned about our feathered friends

please write to this lady and voice your concerns and i hope your legendary powers of persusion prevails

please take this in the light hearted manner it was intended

Question is does a bird clubbed by a queen suffer more than a fish hooked by Leicester lorry driver?

Personally, I wouldn't want to be either but country folk both rich and poor would argue that I'm pleased enough when food arrives on the table.

But the distinction being made by some activists is that food is one thing, sport something quite different. And like I say angling matches only differ from foxhunts in the perceived class of person they attract.

[macbeth]

Question is does a bird clubbed by a queen suffer more than a fish hooked by Leicester lorry driver?

Personally, I wouldn't want to be either but country folk both rich and poor would argue that I'm pleased enough when food arrives on the table.

But the distinction being made by some activists is that food is one thing, sport something quite different. And like I say angling matches only differ from foxhunts in the perceived class of person they attract.

my point being that you should direct your scorn to the people involved

but i suspect wheras you may take issue with the leicester lorry driver ; you would take an altogether less virulent line with our aristocracy

[Thracian]

Not at all. I don't condone cruelty to animals by anyone, anytime and while I doubt any country person, rich or poor, would consider the queen was being cruel, I am sure she will regret the indiscretion of allowing herself to be photographed in grim reaper mode.

There are many reasons I dislike class war not least because, rather than elevating the perpetrators, it tends to devalue them.

Class consciousness is largely in the mind. If you believe you are somehow inferior then you may take comfort from supporting attacks on the so called upper classes.

If you don't then it isn't a problem.

I was lucky enough to be brought up believing that a dustman (they never needed a patronising name change) is just as important to our society and likely to be just as worthy a man as a doctor, a blood donor , a politician, a police chief or a member of the royal family.

If I were envious of money I might as well envy the Richard Bransons, Alan Sugars or even a bevy of supposedly ex-working class footballers like Wayne Rooney and David Beckham than I would the royal Family but I'm not. Nor am I envious of power. I've had power at times in my life and its a two-edged sword and not necessarily to be envied at all.

What matters to me is who YOU are and what you make of your life. The people I admire and respect are sometimes well-known and sometimes unsung individuals who, for example, might have given a lifetime's service to the air ambulance, crewed a lifeboat in all weathers, invented some beneficiary treatment for an illness, cared for the destitute, taken in stray or injured animals.

If there is such a thing, it is such as those who make up my upper class and they have privilege for sure - they have the privilege of local or universal respect.

[Rincewind]

I concur. The aristocrocy though know of no other way to live. I am certain the leader of the foxhunt who also owns the dogs and horses care for those animals and when actvists throw things in front of their horses prior to a hunt their concern is for the well being of the horses. Not being a country dweller myself I cannot say for sure whether a fox torn to pieces by hounds or shot by a farmer when it attacts livestock is a quicker form of death. I do not go fishing but I can see where piecing a fishes jaw with a hook may be painful. But in order to eat that fish I have to accept this may happen from time to time. Before demanding the banning of certain activities alternatives and consequences need to be thought about. Now foxhunting is no more what is going to happen to the dogs, horses and stablelads? The rich landowner may be rich put even he doesn't have a bottemless bank account to pay for things that are no longer in use. Many hounds and horses may have to be put down and a lopt of farmworkers will lose their jobs. If the veggies got their way there would be no viable purpose for the cow,chicken,pig or sheep. The land they occupy to graze on would be needed to plough for crops.

[macbeth]

I concur. The aristocrocy though know of no other way to live. I am certain the leader of the foxhunt who also owns the dogs and horses care for those animals and when actvists throw things in front of their horses prior to a hunt their concern is for the well being of the horses. Not being a country dweller myself I cannot say for sure whether a fox torn to pieces by hounds or shot by a farmer when it attacts livestock is a quicker form of death. I do not go fishing but I can see where piecing a fishes jaw with a hook may be painful. But in order to eat that fish I have to accept this may happen from time to time. Before demanding the banning of certain activities alternatives and consequences need to be thought about. Now foxhunting is no more what is going to happen to the dogs, horses and stablelads? The rich landowner may be rich put even he doesn't have a bottemless bank account to pay for things that are no longer in use. Many hounds and horses may have to be put down and a lopt of farmworkers will lose their jobs. If the veggies got their way there would be no viable purpose for the cow,chicken,pig or sheep. The land they occupy to graze on would be needed to plough for crops.

that be true master; that be true; can you whip me now coz thats all us peasants is good for

[Daggers]

that be true master; that be true; can you whip me now coz thats all us peasants is good for

...there's some lovely mud over here Macbeth...

[macbeth]

Not at all. I don't condone cruelty to animals by anyone, anytime and while I doubt any country person, rich or poor, would consider the queen was being cruel, I am sure she will regret the indiscretion of allowing herself to be photographed in grim reaper mode.

There are many reasons I dislike class war not least because, rather than elevating the perpetrators, it tends to devalue them.

Class consciousness is largely in the mind. If you believe you are somehow inferior then you may take comfort from supporting attacks on the so called upper classes.

If you don't then it isn't a problem.

I was lucky enough to be brought up believing that a dustman (they never needed a patronising name change) is just as important to our society and likely to be just as worthy a man as a doctor, a blood donor , a politician, a police chief or a member of the royal family.

If I were envious of money I might as well envy the Richard Bransons, Alan Sugars or even a bevy of supposedly ex-working class footballers like Wayne Rooney and David Beckham than I would the royal Family but I'm not. Nor am I envious of power. I've had power at times in my life and its a two-edged sword and not necessarily to be envied at all.

What matters to me is who YOU are and what you make of your life. The people I admire and respect are sometimes well-known and sometimes unsung individuals who, for example, might have given a lifetime's service to the air ambulance, crewed a lifeboat in all weathers, invented some beneficiary treatment for an illness, cared for the destitute, taken in stray or injured animals.

If there is such a thing, it is such as those who make up my upper class and they have privilege for sure - they have the privilege of local or universal respect.

you again have sunk back into politics of envy type rhetoric

nowhere have i implied that i envy them( i pity them as i would a circus freak show)

i am going to use an analogy which i know i will regret

if i knew of someone that was claiming unemployment benefit while working i would report them ;not because i was envious but out of an inate sense of " injustice " ;

and its this inate sense of injustice ; (which i believe we all still retain throughout our lives to greater or lesser degrees) that tells me that inherited power /authority / influence is wrong

yes of course the world may not become a utopia if we rid it of one more injustice but i believe that gradually in an evolutionary manner ( with many thanks to our forebears; who have fought injustice) we can bring about a fairer society; (not maybe a perfect one)

[Rincewind]

I heard this years ago.

A bloke was taking a short cut across a field when he was acosted by a 'country-type gentleman.

"Oi! you peasant get off my land"

"How do I know it's your land mate"

"My great-great-great-grandfather fought lowlife like you for this land"

"Awright mate, tell yer what, I'll fight yer for it now."

People complain about scroungers from the working class section of society but there is just as much benefits to which people are entitled to going unclaimed either through pride or ignorance. The biggest tax 'cheats' are from people with money and are able to employ people to make the most of loopholes in the tax system. They don't look at it as 'cheating' They move money around, invest it in different things, even donate some to charities. They have enough income to be able to do this. People at the lower end of the pay structure often are ignorant through lack of information and support about such matters. Their main concern is the rent/mortgage and feeding and clothing the family. Their biggest investment is the weekly quid on the lottery.

Some-one once told me that if all the money in the world was shared out equally within 6 months the same people would have the majority of it. I think I read where if Bill Gates shared his wealth out we'd get something like 1p each. That's discounting the Begians.

[macbeth]

Not at all. I don't condone cruelty to animals by anyone, anytime and while I doubt any country person, rich or poor, would consider the queen was being cruel,YES THEY WOULD I am sure she will regret the indiscretion of allowing herself to be photographed in grim reaper mode.NO SHE WON'T THE ROYALS PUBLICLY FLAUNT IT ;

There are many reasons I dislike class war not least because, rather than elevating the perpetrators, it tends to devalue them.NO IT DOESN'T

Class consciousness is largely in the mind.NO IT ISN'T If you believe you are somehow inferior then you may take comfort from supporting attacks on the so called upper classes.I DONT CONSIDER MYSELF INFERIOR- BUT ARISTOCRACY FEEL SUPERIOR; OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT USE TITLES BESTOWED UPON THEM AT BIRTH

If you don't then it isn't a problem.CORRECT I DON'T

I was lucky enough to be brought up believing that a dustman (they never needed a patronising name change) is just as important to our society and likely to be just as worthy a man as a doctor, a blood donor , a politician, a police chief or a member of the royal family.GOOD FOR YOU

If I were envious of money I might as well envy the Richard Bransons, Alan Sugars or even a bevy of supposedly ex-working class footballers like Wayne Rooney and David Beckham than I would the royal Family but I'm not. Nor am I envious of power. I've had power at times in my life and its a two-edged sword and not necessarily to be envied at all.I REPEAT FOR THE XthTIME I AM NOT ENVIOUS OF THEIR MONEY

What matters to me is who YOU are and what you make of your life. The people I admire and respect are sometimes well-known and sometimes unsung individuals who, for example, might have given a lifetime's service to the air ambulance, crewed a lifeboat in all weathers, invented some beneficiary treatment for an illness, cared for the destitute, taken in stray or injured animals. AGREED ; SOMEHOW YOU MANAGE TO PUT A SENSIBLE CASE FOR HONOUR TO BE BESTOWED UPON THOSE WHO EARN IT

If there is such a thing, it is such as those who make up my upper class and they have privilege for sure - they have the privilege of local or universal respect.GOOD FOR YOU ; DON'T WASTE YOUR ADMIRATION ON BIRTHRIGHT TITLES