11 years for pervert

[golden gordon]

The free-thinking world has rejected capital punishment as a barbaric throwback to unjust times or oppressive regimes. No one supports the concept in this country apart from the idiotic far-right parties and it will never again become an option. It would make sense to logically debate the way forward to improve society rather than trotting out these emotional responses.

I make no excuses for the behaviour of people like this, but I do appreciate that a combination of medication and therapy provides the best way forward.

with all the medication and therapy that has been and is being used over the last 40 odd years since ending capital punishment is there any sign of violent crimes and murder decreasing, or have they in fact increased over that period ?

[Daggers]

with all the medication and therapy that has been and is being used over the last 40 odd years since ending capital punishment is there any sign of violent crimes and murder decreasing, or have they in fact increased over that period ?

Were there no crimes during the age of butchery? Do we have a higher crime rate than the USA because we have a softer approach to crime than them?

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

The free-thinking world has rejected capital punishment as a barbaric throwback to unjust times or oppressive regimes. No one supports the concept in this country apart from the idiotic far-right parties and it will never again become an option. It would make sense to logically debate the way forward to improve society rather than trotting out these emotional responses.

I make no excuses for the behaviour of people like this, but I do appreciate that a combination of medication and therapy provides the best way forward.

Nail > head.

Look at the Yanks with their disgusting prison and execution system, with vocal supporters from hicks like Bush. I remember the Timothy McVeigh execution - there was this fat bitch on the telly outside the prison, counting down and then cheering when he was executed, exhaling through her wheezing flappy cakehole over the death of a man inside the prison. How disgusting, I thought. She was worse than him - taking pleasure in killing someone as opposed to killing people for some stupid ideal.

The whole point of prison isn't supposed to be a deterrent - people do what they will regardless - but rather a method by which offenders can be rehabilitated, and also a way in which to protect the public from offenders likely to reoffend.

The behaviour of offenders should not be excused, but understood and treated so that it won't happen again.

I do like the idea of a good strapping though. If some filth raped someone close to me I'd like to give the scum a good headkicking like the next bloke, but killing him is ruthless and would probably leave you feeling more unfulfilled than before.

[golden gordon]

Were there no crimes during the age of butchery? Do we have a higher crime rate than the USA because we have a softer approach to crime than them?

i am asking if the rate of violent crime in OUR country has risen or lowered during the last 40 years; comparisons with other countries are futile , i'm sure deathside can give you some statistics about singapore ,who have corporal and capital punishment which would suggest it does work but i would rather concentrate on the effects that i have during my lifetime witnessed, and that is a gradually but surely increasing rate of violent crime and murder

yes of course there was crime back then but i'm concerned with the cause of the "increase" and i believe it to be a lack of fear of justice

i have known criminals who are not scared of the law but who are terrified of reprisals from other criminals and dare not cross them , this would suggest to me that if they feared the law in the same way then perhaps they would be less likely to commit crime

[Head Honcho]

Nail > head.

Look at the Yanks with their disgusting prison and execution system, with vocal supporters from hicks like Bush. I remember the Timothy McVeigh execution - there was this fat bitch on the telly outside the prison, counting down and then cheering when he was executed, exhaling through her wheezing flappy cakehole over the death of a man inside the prison. How disgusting, I thought. She was worse than him - taking pleasure in killing someone as opposed to killing people for some stupid ideal.

The whole point of prison isn't supposed to be a deterrent - people do what they will regardless - but rather a method by which offenders can be rehabilitated, and also a way in which to protect the public from offenders likely to reoffend.

The behaviour of offenders should not be excused, but understood and treated so that it won't happen again.

I do like the idea of a good strapping though. If some filth raped someone close to me I'd like to give the scum a good headkicking like the next bloke, but killing him is ruthless and would probably leave you feeling more unfulfilled than before.

This is the same McVeigh responsible for the deaths of 169 innocent people many of them children.

Lead me to his grave I feel like dancing!

This man showed no regret whatsoever and we should all rejoice when vermin like this are executed

[lookwhaticando]

This is the same McVeigh responsible for the deaths of 169 innocent people many of them children.

Lead me to his grave I feel like dancing!

This man showed no regret whatsoever and we should all rejoice when vermin like this are executed

Spot. On.

May I join you in a jig?

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Spot. On.

May I join you in a jig?

[lookwhaticando]

He killed 169 people. He affected the lives of at least 400 people directly, and thousands more indirectly.

He caused trauma for those hundreds, if not thousands of people.

He showed no regret, no remorse. He deserved to pay the ultimate price for such horrendous acts.

Perhaps it's time people reminded that most people sentenced to death, in the US, have killed - and usually more than just one or two people.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Perhaps it's time people reminded that most people sentenced to death, in the US, have killed - and usually more than just one or two people.

Oh, and sometimes they're wrong. Whoops, guess the 'ultimate price' should have gone to someone else. Sorry Billy! We'll, erm... leave some more flowers on your tomb. It's okay though, state sanctioned murder is no different from any other kind, perpertrated by the supposed upholders of justice and all.

[golden gordon]

Oh, and sometimes they're wrong. Whoops, guess the 'ultimate price' should have gone to someone else. Sorry Billy! We'll, erm... leave some more flowers on your tomb. It's okay though, state sanctioned murder is no different from any other kind, perpertrated by the supposed upholders of justice and all.

i often hear this phrase "state sanctioned murder "

what then is imprisonmement ? state sanctioned kidnapping

what is a fine ? state sanctioned extortion

what is community service ? state sanctioned slavery

[Daggers]

i am asking if the rate of violent crime in OUR country has risen or lowered during the last 40 years

I've answered that below:

comparisons with other countries are futile , i'm sure deathside can give you some statistics about singapore ,who have corporal and capital punishment which would suggest it does work

I'm not sure that is true. I think we can draw a lot from looking at the effect of punishment on crime incidence figures in other countries ~ especially one's that have the death penalty. It obviously doesn't work as a deterant in the States, which is the best comparrison. Singapore does indeed have a very low crime rate - but there is a greater cultural difference between ourselves and them, not least of which stems from it being [effectively] a one party state.

i would rather concentrate on the effects that i have during my lifetime witnessed, and that is a gradually but surely increasing rate of violent crime and murder

I wonder whether it is the rate of incidents increasing, the rate of reporting them in the media increasing or the feeling of a rise in rates increasing? Looking at the Home Office figures from 1981 to the present their statistics show that although we have been through a period where rates rose (considerably in 1995 for some reason) the current number of incidents of violent crime is on par with that twenty five years ago. I would argue that if that is then mapped to population growth it demonstrates a fall in real terms. source

I'm concerned with the cause of the "increase" and i believe it to be a lack of fear of justice

i have known criminals who are not scared of the law but who are terrified of reprisals from other criminals and dare not cross them , this would suggest to me that if they feared the law in the same way then perhaps they would be less likely to commit crime

I believe that we have always had a portion of the population that lacked respect and displayed scant regard for the values of society. I think the only major change is that we (as a society) now perceive our institutions differently due to the prevalence of media coverage. 24hour news coverage demands that everything is now nit-picked over in order to fill time, non-news from years ago becomes this hours must be talked about.

Consequently we (the nation in general) have this perception that politicians are softer on crime, that there are less police on the beat - leading to an increase in crime. The stats and the organisation involved vehemently deny this. Intelligence led policing has improved conviction rates, has targeted repeat offenders and has reduced crime in a way that walking the beat could never have done (well, that and decent double glazing ).

Are criminals less afraid of 'the law'? I don't think so. Do we have a criminal underclass that still needs tackling? Hell yes.

Are we, in this thread, now mixing up chav criminals with bad men who have mental problems? Unfortunately , yes.

The problem we have when looking at these matters is dissociating the emotive response that all of us feel from the analytical approach. Sometimes I feel that we are all going to hell in a hand cart, but we aren't...the facts simply do not bear it out. That isn't to say things are far from perfect but one thing is sure - we will not eradicate crime.

[golden gordon]

i agree wth much of what you are saying DB and think as a society all points of view have aims that are broadly similar,

however i can't help feeling that both sides are picking and choosing which evidence and research is relevant to the debate and which is not , this leads me and many others merely into a state of believing what one actually witnesses, and to me that is a very steep decline in responsible behaviour in my lifetime.

if we take the 60s as a starting point; crime has increased whereas with the new methods and ideas that have been touted since, the effect should have been a downward turn.

so with this failure ( or if you like, no real progress ), what the proponents are saying is "lets have more of the same"

[lookwhaticando]

Perhaps if we still made people pay the ultimate price for the worst crimes, they wouldn't be so stupid as to commit them in the first place.

Yeah, I think we need to do more to stop some of these crimes. The one that got this argument started being a prime example. People like this should be made to pay a much heftier price for the trauma they cause to many people in one go.

If you think that makes me a right wing extremist, fine. Just be aware that I only vote for one of the 'main three' parties (ie. those in the centre ground), and not a minority/extremist party - the benfit of their tough approach to crime is far far far outweighed by the cost of all their other policies, and as such not worth my vote.

[lcfc_jme]

A hefty price? Such as what then? People have suggested the death penalty, but that argument has been shot down by DB, so what would you suggest?

As far as I'm concerned, the death penalty would make people think twice about doing this sort of crime, and it could well put many people off, but it won't completely stop everybody, nothing will. People that commit these crimes are evil beyond belief, and this type of person will never be extinct from society, no matter what the punishment they face.

[lookwhaticando]

Death by vigilante mob.

An eye for and eye and so on...

[Daggers]

if we take the 60s as a starting point; crime has increased whereas with the new methods and ideas that have been touted since, the effect should have been a downward turn.

so with this failure ( or if you like, no real progress ), what the proponents are saying is "lets have more of the same"

*gosh* This has turned into a serious day, I much prefer the flippant ones

Unfortunately records weren't kept of incident rates in the 60's - and considering that the police were a law unto themselves then one has no idea how many innocent people languished in prison on trumped up charges either.

I found myself decrying the youth of today, for their ill manners, to Mrs.DB in the car while driving to France. Suddenly, I realised how I was sounding like my Dad...and how he used to say the same thing 20 years ago. I can not accept that as each generation decries the next that we are actually, steadily getting worse and worse as a global society...because the world would simply cease to function and this is not the case.

My belief is that society will always resemble a bell curve for wahtever aspect you wish to look at - crime in this case. Different countries have different shaped bell curves but there will always be that group, a couple of standard deviations from the norm, that exist to do naughty business.

We will not agree (I suspect) on the best method of dealing with them, but as sure as chips is chips it will be a topic for debate whenever a government is getting towards the end of its life cycle or policies are running thin on the ground.

We all do agree that this bloke is a bad man and our thoughts lie with his victim, bless her cotton socks.

Perhaps if we still made people pay the ultimate price for the worst crimes, they wouldn't be so stupid as to commit them in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned, the death penalty would make people think twice about doing this sort of crime, and it could well put many people off

None of the evidence supports this position on the death penalty, it simply does not act as a deterrent. Chris Rock came up with the best answer...cost.

"Everybody is talking about gun control. Got to control the guns. fock, that, I like guns. If you've got a gun, you don't need to work out! Cause, I ain't working out. I ain't jogging. No, I think we need some bullet control. I think every bullet should cost five thousand dollars. Five thousand dollars for a bullet. Know why? Cos if a bullet cost five thousand dollars, there'd be no more innocent by-standers. That'd be it. Some guy'd be shot you'd be all 'Damn, he must've done something, he's got fifty thousand dollars worth of bullets in his ass!' And people'd think before they shot someone 'Man I will blow your **** head off, if I could afford it. I'm gonna get me a second job, start saving up, and you a dead man. You'd better hope I don't get no bullets on lay-away!' And even if you get shot you wouldn't need to go to the emergency room. Whoever shot you'd take their bullet back. 'I believe you got my property!?'"