Charlton Heston dead

[Jordan]

Wow, all these posts and nary a mention of, "GET YER FILTHY PAWS OFFA ME, YOU DAMN, DIRTY APE!"

...

I think the article from The Observer has hit the nail on the head: the roots of gun crime are the same as the roots of nearly every other form of violent crime. However, what the NRA has successfully done is convince its rank-and-file membership that legislators in favor of gun control (called "anti-gun") are trying to (in simple terms) take their guns away. I've read a fair amount of NRA-published material, and while there are some compelling arguments and statistics on their side, most of what they have to offer for political activism propaganda is purely appeal to emotion (with plenty of commercial advertising).

For the record, I think the Founding Fathers had something completely different in mind when they came up with the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (not Fifth, Nick; I've just got to nit-pick...) and also, I find hunting to be barbaric and repulsive. However, in many segments of American society, gun ownership is ubiquitous and wound very tightly into their fabrics with minimal harm, so it would be absurd to infringe upon their rights.

And while I'd love to see less guns on the streets, gun violence in the euphemistic "inner-city"--poor, urban ethnic-minority neighborhoods--is only going to be reduced drastically after poverty and institutionalized racism are reduced drastically. Alas, this is the United States of America, so I'm sadly not holding my breath for this. The school shootings get all the media attention, but Virginia Tech 2007 had the same body count as any given night spread across the big cities.

I've compared the American right-to-bear-arms debate with the American abortion debate and I see one glaring difference: sensible leaders of major "pro-choice" movements, although they'd all be in favor of expanding a woman's access to an abortion, would also most likely agree that society would be better off if social and economic conditions, education, contraception techniques etc. improved to the point where there'd be less of a need for abortions (and in a perfect society, perhaps there would be no need at all). While their means clash heavily with many on the "pro-life" side, in a strange way, both of their ends are the same! However, the "pro-gun" lobby has drawn out an argument against gun restrictions that's even more black-and-white, all-or-nothing than the abortion debate and nobody on that side would ever admit that society would be better off if guns were only used for hunting or target shooting, with no need at all existing for guns to be used for attacking others or defending against crime. There's a hell of a lot more money to be made selling guns and ammo than there is in abortions.

Also, while Michael Moore did illustrate many of the points that we are either making or citing, don't take Bowling for Columbine as audiovisual gospel. I like lots of what Moore has done and I'm disgusted with the NRA, but lots of what Moore did in the segments involving the NRA (and particularly Heston, whom he ambushed in his interview) were full of intentionally misleading editing techniques.

Thracian, I've seen other stats show similar trends--perhaps the "Brady Bill" of the early 90s, which added some restrictions to handgun purchases and also imposed a waiting period/background checks for those purchasing certain guns, had some effect, but that's also when urban redevelopment in many cities began (New York City is a good example).

[Thracian]

Wow, all these posts and nary a mention of, "GET YER FILTHY PAWS OFFA ME, YOU DAMN, DIRTY APE!"

...

I think the article from The Observer has hit the nail on the head: the roots of gun crime are the same as the roots of nearly every other form of violent crime. However, what the NRA has successfully done is convince its rank-and-file membership that legislators in favor of gun control (called "anti-gun") are trying to (in simple terms) take their guns away. I've read a fair amount of NRA-published material, and while there are some compelling arguments and statistics on their side, most of what they have to offer for political activism propaganda is purely appeal to emotion (with plenty of commercial advertising).

For the record, I think the Founding Fathers had something completely different in mind when they came up with the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (not Fifth, Nick; I've just got to nit-pick...) and also, I find hunting to be barbaric and repulsive. However, in many segments of American society, gun ownership is ubiquitous and wound very tightly into their fabrics with minimal harm, so it would be absurd to infringe upon their rights.

And while I'd love to see less guns on the streets, gun violence in the euphemistic "inner-city"--poor, urban ethnic-minority neighborhoods--is only going to be reduced drastically after poverty and institutionalized racism are reduced drastically. Alas, this is the United States of America, so I'm sadly not holding my breath for this. The school shootings get all the media attention, but Virginia Tech 2007 had the same body count as any given night spread across the big cities.

I've compared the American right-to-bear-arms debate with the American abortion debate and I see one glaring difference: sensible leaders of major "pro-choice" movements, although they'd all be in favor of expanding a woman's access to an abortion, would also most likely agree that society would be better off if social and economic conditions, education, contraception techniques etc. improved to the point where there'd be less of a need for abortions (and in a perfect society, perhaps there would be no need at all). While their means clash heavily with many on the "pro-life" side, in a strange way, both of their ends are the same! However, the "pro-gun" lobby has drawn out an argument against gun restrictions that's even more black-and-white, all-or-nothing than the abortion debate and nobody on that side would ever admit that society would be better off if guns were only used for hunting or target shooting, with no need at all existing for guns to be used for attacking others or defending against crime. There's a hell of a lot more money to be made selling guns and ammo than there is in abortions.

Also, while Michael Moore did illustrate many of the points that we are either making or citing, don't take Bowling for Columbine as audiovisual gospel. I like lots of what Moore has done and I'm disgusted with the NRA, but lots of what Moore did in the segments involving the NRA (and particularly Heston, whom he ambushed in his interview) were full of intentionally misleading editing techniques.

Thracian, I've seen other stats show similar trends--perhaps the "Brady Bill" of the early 90s, which added some restrictions to handgun purchases and also imposed a waiting period/background checks for those purchasing certain guns, had some effect, but that's also when urban redevelopment in many cities began (New York City is a good example).

Excellent post. I can live with all of that including your personal view about guns.

I'm no fan of hunting nor would I ever want guns in my house.

But that is totally different from denying other people their rights, their choices, their culture and their chosen way of life.

Much more progress will be achieved when the greedy and grabbing do much more to end poverty and increase opportunity through education, training and motivation.

[Daggers]

But that is totally different from denying other people their rights, their choices, their culture and their chosen way of life.

The logic that advocates supporting the likes of NAMBLA.

How on Earth you can argue for freedom of choice on one hand while decrying 'democracy' on the other is simply baffling.

You appear confused Thracian.

[Zingari]

I think it is important to remember that Heston was a champion of "rights" other than just the one about guns that us Europeans are so appalled by. He was also a champion of civil rights and racial equality in the 50's and 60's when plenty of others were not. I'm not against celebrating people's death, when Hussein swung I didn't shead a tear, but at the same time you need to realise that 99% have a lot of good in them, despite their flaws, Including Heston.

Concise ,well balaced and to the point