Civilian Aid Ship Deaths

[Guest Bilo]

It's such a pity people can't separate Anti - Zionism from anti- semitism.

The sad thing is that that goes for both Israel's supporters and detractors. A lot of people hostile to Israel can allow that to spill over into prejudice against Jews as a whole, and a lot of Zionists declare any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic, which causes the two to feed on one another.

Definitely. Awful.

Also, I'm not sure why all the usual suspects are touting a boycott of Israeli goods. Goods from Palestine are also marked "Produce of Israel" so the only people actually affected by any such boycott would be the Palestinian and Israeli working classes who produce the goods. It wouldn't change the thinking of the Israeli government one iota.

A boycott of Israeli goods is just cock not only for the valid reasons you've stated about it impacting only upon the Israeli and Palestinian working classes, but because so much can be linked back to companies and individuals which have links to Israel. For instance, you'd have to dump your mobile because voicemail technology was pioneered in Israel, as well as your HSBC bank account because they happen to have branches in Israel. It also lumps all Israelis together, which is blatantly unfair as many liberal Israelis are as opposed to their government's treatment of Palestinians as the British left was opposed to the war in Iraq. Would we support a Muslim boycott of Britain because of the foreign policy that prevailed under Labour? No, it would be unfair. The same applies to a boycott of Israel.

[l444ry]

The UN does condemn Israal on occasions but no action is ever taken against them because of the US veto. Israel is breaking many resolutions which just shows how powerful they are. No-one can touch them, especially the USA.

UN talk is cheap, and they like to talk about the injustices in Palestine but they don't actually have any power to solve anything about it.

One should consider that the majority of U.N. member states are Arab nations (22) or Islamic nations (52).....or.......

dictatorial, anti-democratic nations......or.....

nations in desperate need of Arab oil....or.....

nations desperate for business investment opportunities within Arab countries.....or......

countries fearful of discontent among their growing Arab/Muslim populations (namely ALL of Europe!!!).

It's no wonder why so many anti-Israel General Assembly resolutions get introduced AND passed!!! In fact, of over 700 General Assembly resolutions passed since the UN's 1945 establishment, nearly 450 condemn Israel. None have been passed against any Arab country nor any Arab terrorist organizations.

In other words, out of 190 nations in the United Nations, over sixty percent of all General Assembly resolutions condemned just ONE member, Israel. If the General Assembly proposed a resolution deploring Israel for breathing too much Middle Eastern air, no doubt it too would pass.

So when the large block of anti-Israel fascist, anti-democratic, anti-Western, Arab and Islamic Neo-Nazi nations tell Israel to comply with these transparently biased AND non-binding resolutions, can anyone really be suprised when Israel simply tells them to "shove it."

[FoxyPV]

Also, I'm not sure why all the usual suspects are touting a boycott of Israeli goods. Goods from Palestine are also marked "Produce of Israel" so the only people actually affected by any such boycott would be the Palestinian and Israeli working classes who produce the goods. It wouldn't change the thinking of the Israeli government one iota.

The irony of this is that it is mainly scoialist parties who are calling for this boycott.

The boycott is counterproductive for reasons listed previously and any pressure has to come from the top, unfortunately that is just not going to happen.

As a statement of intent the UK should have withdrawn their ambassador from Israel even if only for a week or so and the US should do the same.

The Israeli govt do themselves no favours with their hawkish attitude in the press.

[FoxyPV]

It's no wonder why so many anti-Israel General Assembly resolutions get introduced AND passed!!! In fact, of over 700 General Assembly resolutions passed since the UN's 1945 establishment, nearly 450 condemn Israel. None have been passed against any Arab country nor any Arab terrorist organizations.

So when the large block of anti-Israel fascist, anti-democratic, anti-Western, Arab and Islamic Neo-Nazi nations tell Israel to comply with these transparently biased AND non-binding resolutions, can anyone really be suprised when Israel simply tells them to "shove it."

One of the reasons that the surrounding countries hate Israel is because they have nuclear weapons which none of these countries are allowed to develop because big brother America will invade if they do.. This creates a power imbalance in the region, destabilising it.

This is STATE TERRORISM not some bunch of radicals out in the sticks. This is includes the Air Force, the Navy, the Army and Special Forces all attacking desnely populated civilian areas with little or no regard for civilian life. The Israeli army used Phosphorus smoke bombs last year which are banned by all countries as inhumane. The Israeli Govt also targetted a RED CROSS hospital last year.

They have turned into what they were running away from.

[Fosse Boy]

The irony of this is that it is mainly scoialist parties who are calling for this boycott.

Absolutely, the same irony a liberal Jewish friend of mine pointed out in a speech to Essex SWSS members last year at the height of the Gaza crisis. Not that they were bothered one bit about that. They wouldn't have had the chance to flex their "I'm a radical student politician" muscle by calling for a blanket ban on Israeli goods on campus if they had actually listened to and understood what he was saying.

It really is no wonder that Leicester's present Lord Mayor graduated from this very university too...

[breadandcheese]

One of the reasons that the surrounding countries hate Israel is because they have nuclear weapons which none of these countries are allowed to develop because big brother America will invade if they do.. This creates a power imbalance in the region, destabilising it.

This is STATE TERRORISM not some bunch of radicals out in the sticks. This is includes the Air Force, the Navy, the Army and Special Forces all attacking desnely populated civilian areas with little or no regard for civilian life. The Israeli army used Phosphorus smoke bombs last year which are banned by all countries as inhumane. The Israeli Govt also targetted a RED CROSS hospital last year.

They have turned into what they were running away from.

The reason surrounding countries hate Israel is not because they have nuclear weapons. That's just utter rubbish. Dare I suggest that they reject Israel today, just as they have done since the state declared indpendence in 1948, just as they did throughout the 1920s when there was violence between Jew and Arabs at the prospect of a Jewish state.

Israeli miltary action is always open to question, and in the case of the aid ships, there is a case to answer, but to label the state as terrorist is questionable. The fact is, as much as technology has moved on and military planning has got better, no military in the world yet knows how to deal with counter-insurgency and civilian embedded militias. This is why we see the deaths of civilians, as no military yet has an answer as to how to deal with an irregular enemy that merges into civilian areas.

With regards the popular imagery by Israel's detractors of presenting them as Nazis or, turning into what they ran away from, I think it's probably quite offensive and false.

[Guest Bilo]

Absolutely, the same irony a liberal Jewish friend of mine pointed out in a speech to Essex SWSS members last year at the height of the Gaza crisis. Not that they were bothered one bit about that. They wouldn't have had the chance to flex their "I'm a radical student politician" muscle by calling for a blanket ban on Israeli goods on campus if they had actually listened to and understood what he was saying.

It really is no wonder that Leicester's present Lord Mayor graduated from this very university too...

This is what I mean. Too many anti Israel activists extend the whole country to their enemy list without sparing a thought for any of the ordinary Israeli citizens, many of whom are ashamed by their government's conduct. For example, Tel Aviv is seen as something as a liberal and left-wing city and this is reflected in the fanbase of its most successful football club. You need only look at the views of Hapoel Tel Aviv's Ultra group to realise they aren't the same as the hawks in the Knesset.

[Guest Bilo]

The reason surrounding countries hate Israel is not because they have nuclear weapons. That's just utter rubbish. Dare I suggest that they reject Israel today, just as they have done since the state declared indpendence in 1948, just as they did throughout the 1920s when there was violence between Jew and Arabs at the prospect of a Jewish state.

Israeli miltary action is always open to question, and in the case of the aid ships, there is a case to answer, but to label the state as terrorist is questionable. The fact is, as much as technology has moved on and military planning has got better, no military in the world yet knows how to deal with counter-insurgency and civilian embedded militias. This is why we see the deaths of civilians, as no military yet has an answer as to how to deal with an irregular enemy that merges into civilian areas.

With regards the popular imagery by Israel's detractors of presenting them as Nazis or, turning into what they ran away from, I think it's probably quite offensive and false.

That is something I've always had an issue with. Why pick the Nazis of all regimes to compare Israel to? It seems like a deliberate attempt to pick at a wound that is still raw. Some even use the comparison to nullify the horrors of the Nazi regime because they feel Israel is its moral equivalent. However badly Israel has behaved since its formation, and it has at times behaved appallingly, its crimes are small compared to the Third Reich.

[BoneDog]

One should consider that the majority of U.N. member states are Arab nations (22) or Islamic nations (52).....or.......

dictatorial, anti-democratic nations......or.....

nations in desperate need of Arab oil....or.....

nations desperate for business investment opportunities within Arab countries.....or......

countries fearful of discontent among their growing Arab/Muslim populations (namely ALL of Europe!!!).

It's no wonder why so many anti-Israel General Assembly resolutions get introduced AND passed!!! In fact, of over 700 General Assembly resolutions passed since the UN's 1945 establishment, nearly 450 condemn Israel. None have been passed against any Arab country nor any Arab terrorist organizations.

In other words, out of 190 nations in the United Nations, over sixty percent of all General Assembly resolutions condemned just ONE member, Israel. If the General Assembly proposed a resolution deploring Israel for breathing too much Middle Eastern air, no doubt it too would pass.

So when the large block of anti-Israel fascist, anti-democratic, anti-Western, Arab and Islamic Neo-Nazi nations tell Israel to comply with these transparently biased AND non-binding resolutions, can anyone really be suprised when Israel simply tells them to "shove it."

Surely you're having a laugh? Are you suggesting that Israel are the victims? I would think that you definitely know that that isn't true, so I can't figure out why you would say it.

The General Assembly might 'condemn' Israel in words, but it never does so in actions. Many nations are victims of actions and not words from the UN like sanctions that deeply affect their citizens, but not Israel.

And everyone knows who the biggest fascist, anti almost everyone, Neo-Nazi regime in that region is. And it's none of the large block. It's the regime that recieves more aid from the USA in a year than the whole of the continent of Africa recieves. That tiny nation that is about the same size as the midlands that recieves more aid than the whole of Africa!

[Guest Bilo]

Surely you're having a laugh? Are you suggesting that Israel are the victims? I would think that you definitely know that that isn't true, so I can't figure out why you would say it.

The General Assembly might 'condemn' Israel in words, but it never does so in actions. Many nations are victims of actions and not words from the UN like sanctions that deeply affect their citizens, but not Israel.

And everyone knows who the biggest fascist, anti almost everyone, Neo-Nazi regime in that region is. And it's none of the large block. It's the regime that recieves more aid from the USA in a year than the whole of the continent of Africa recieves. That tiny nation that is about the same size as the midlands that recieves more aid than the whole of Africa!

Take your pick.

[BoneDog]

The reason surrounding countries hate Israel is not because they have nuclear weapons. That's just utter rubbish. Dare I suggest that they reject Israel today, just as they have done since the state declared indpendence in 1948, just as they did throughout the 1920s when there was violence between Jew and Arabs at the prospect of a Jewish state.

Israeli miltary action is always open to question, and in the case of the aid ships, there is a case to answer, but to label the state as terrorist is questionable. The fact is, as much as technology has moved on and military planning has got better, no military in the world yet knows how to deal with counter-insurgency and civilian embedded militias. This is why we see the deaths of civilians, as no military yet has an answer as to how to deal with an irregular enemy that merges into civilian areas.

With regards the popular imagery by Israel's detractors of presenting them as Nazis or, turning into what they ran away from, I think it's probably quite offensive and false.

You may say that they are not a terrorist state (I'm talking about the regime, not all of the citizens) but they certainly commit more crimes than anybody they are fighting against. I don't know whether you choose to ignore it or you just don't know about the things they are doing everyday in that region and around the world. They are constantly destroying what little land the Palestinians have among an endless list of other crimes.

And the way they got the land to start with was highly illegal and immoral. And ever since, they have been taking more and more. If the same had happened to any nation in Europe the world would have stepped in, but not for Palestine. Or should I say that if it was a different group of people committing the crime that they would have been stopped.

[BoneDog]

Take your pick.

Neither of those two! Although the Saudi regime is basically hand in hand with them. As are Egypt.

[Guest Bilo]

Neither of those two! Although the Saudi regime is basically hand in hand with them. As are Egypt.

Are you actually joking?! Saudi Arabia manages to make the Israeli regime look like Amnesty international with their human rights record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

As for Iran, you only have to think back 12 months to see how they deal with dissent.

[BoneDog]

The reason surrounding countries hate Israel is not because they have nuclear weapons.

It's not just surrounding countries who hate them though is it? The whole world understands what that regime is doing and is and has been pretty p*ssed off with them for decades.. I honestly trust the words of people like Chomsky, Fisk etc. more than the words of well known lying regimes.

People don't like them having nuclear weapons either because thay refuse to be inspected like other countries, and have been known to offer to sell nukes to dodgy regimes. Any other country that refuses to have it's nukes inspected and be open with the world suffers the consequences. Not them though, they can do as they please.

[breadandcheese]

You may say that they are not a terrorist state (I'm talking about the regime, not all of the citizens) but they certainly commit more crimes than anybody they are fighting against. I don't know whether you choose to ignore it or you just don't know about the things they are doing everyday in that region and around the world. They are constantly destroying what little land the Palestinians have among an endless list of other crimes.

And the way they got the land to start with was highly illegal and immoral. And ever since, they have been taking more and more. If the same had happened to any nation in Europe the world would have stepped in, but not for Palestine. Or should I say that if it was a different group of people committing the crime that they would have been stopped.

Do they commit more crimes than anybody they are fighting against or are you presenting opinion as fact?

When you refer to the way Israel got the land to start with, are you referring to the stablishment of the state in 1948? If you are, it has a legal basis, ratified by international law, through United Nations resolutions and agreement by the international community. In that sense, there is absolutely no legal case to answer.

[FoxyPV]

The reason surrounding countries hate Israel is not because they have nuclear weapons. That's just utter rubbish. Dare I suggest that they reject Israel today, just as they have done since the state declared indpendence in 1948, just as they did throughout the 1920s when there was violence between Jew and Arabs at the prospect of a Jewish state.

Israeli miltary action is always open to question, and in the case of the aid ships, there is a case to answer, but to label the state as terrorist is questionable. The fact is, as much as technology has moved on and military planning has got better, no military in the world yet knows how to deal with counter-insurgency and civilian embedded militias. This is why we see the deaths of civilians, as no military yet has an answer as to how to deal with an irregular enemy that merges into civilian areas.

With regards the popular imagery by Israel's detractors of presenting them as Nazis or, turning into what they ran away from, I think it's probably quite offensive and false.

If you read my post, you'll find that I said "one of the reasons" and I accept that the Arab countries have always despised Israel but the power imbalance that occurs from Israel having nuclear weapons and acting in a highly aggressive militaristic fashion would not endear them to their Arab neighbours.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

Source

The manner in which Israel behaves towards the Palestinian state is nothing short of this. I understand that there is serious provocation from Hamas with rocket attacks etc but it is a case of proportional reaction. One soldier gets taken by Hamas (all life is valuble) so Israeli blockage the Palestinians causing misery to around 1.5 million people. Not even close to being the same thing.

Agree with you on the Nazi imagery but they have become the persecutors now.

[breadandcheese]

It's not just surrounding countries who hate them though is it? The whole world understands what that regime is doing and is and has been pretty p*ssed off with them for decades.. I honestly trust the words of people like Chomsky, Fisk etc. more than the words of well known lying regimes.

People don't like them having nuclear weapons either because thay refuse to be inspected like other countries, and have been known to offer to sell nukes to dodgy regimes. Any other country that refuses to have it's nukes inspected and be open with the world suffers the consequences. Not them though, they can do as they please.

Does the whole world hate them or is that you again presenting opinion as fact?

Has Israel offered to sell nukes to dodgy regimes, or are you presenting a poorly checked Guardian article, whose credibility and sources were not properly checked and which relies heavily on innuendo, as fact?

Is Israel a signatory to the non-nuclear proliferation treaty, and therefore not bound by the terms of the treaty with regards inspections, or are you asuggesting it be bound by a treaty it did not sign up to?

[breadandcheese]

If you read my post, you'll find that I said "one of the reasons" and I accept that the Arab countries have always despised Israel but the power imbalance that occurs from Israel having nuclear weapons and acting in a highly aggressive militaristic fashion would not endear them to their Arab neighbours.

I still don't agree with that analysis. I actually think that some of their arab neighbours ,in a strange way, admire Israel's aggressive stance and wish that they had a similar capabiliity. I do still think that neighbouring countries hate the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons, but they do not hate Israel because of them.

The manner in which Israel behaves towards the Palestinian state is nothing short of this. I understand that there is serious provocation from Hamas with rocket attacks etc but it is a case of proportional reaction. One soldier gets taken by Hamas (all life is valuble) so Israeli blockage the Palestinians causing misery to around 1.5 million people. Not even close to being the same thing.

I think Israel's military actions can be very heavy handed, but I do understand why they act in the manner they do. I would say part of it is that they don't have a military solution and so heavy-handed responses are the result. However, there also seems to be no political solution either at the moment.

Agree with you on the Nazi imagery but they have become the persecutors now.

Then why did you use the imagery?

[BoneDog]

Are you actually joking?! Saudi Arabia manages to make the Israeli regime look like Amnesty international with their human rights record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

As for Iran, you only have to think back 12 months to see how they deal with dissent.

Saudi is nowhere near as bad. Most of the world can see that. Horrible but not on the same level. They are not helping to starve 1.5 million people for a start.

The USA leaders back the Saudi regime to the hilt. If it wasn't for the USA government along with Israel then the Saudi's would be overthrown by now by it's unlucky citizens.

Iran never shot that lady or caused any of that mess if that's what you mean. It was a similar situation to the one in Venezuala around 2000 which was all proved beyond doubt to be orchestrated by certain outsiders. Can you remember the snipers who were shooting protestors and the news and US government blamed it on Chavez before their lies backfired? Same thing. It's amazing how quiet they kept the Venezuala event though.

I speak out against most of the regimes in that region but the ones who get away with the worst crimes are the Israeli's. It's all in the history books already.

[BoneDog]

1. Does the whole world hate them or is that you again presenting opinion as fact?

2. Has Israel offered to sell nukes to dodgy regimes, or are you presenting a poorly checked Guardian article, whose credibility and sources were not properly checked and which relies heavily on innuendo, as fact?

3. Is Israel a signatory to the non-nuclear proliferation treaty, and therefore not bound by the terms of the treaty with regards inspections, or are you asuggesting it be bound by a treaty it did not sign up to?

1. I don't mean that every person in every country hates them, cos I know that many love them and dance when they have a victory, including the so called victory the other day. But there are massive proportions of most if not all countries that can clearly see what is going on.

2. Yes the have, but you can believe their spokespeople if you like on that issue as well as the aid ship issue.

3. No it isn't a signatory to the treaty, that's the problem in most peoples eyes. Why do they insist on bullying others regards their non aggressive nuclear aspirations while they themselves have many nuclear warheads and nuclear submarines but are not letting anyone know a jot about it.

[breadandcheese]

Saudi is nowhere near as bad. Most of the world can see that. Horrible but not on the same level. They are not helping to starve 1.5 million people for a start.

The USA leaders back the Saudi regime to the hilt. If it wasn't for the USA government along with Israel then the Saudi's would be overthrown by now by it's unlucky citizens.

Iran never shot that lady or caused any of that mess if that's what you mean. It was a similar situation to the one in Venezuala around 2000 which was all proved beyond doubt to be orchestrated by certain outsiders. Can you remember the snipers who were shooting protestors and the news and US government blamed it on Chavez before their lies backfired? Same thing. It's amazing how quiet they kept the Venezuala event though.

I speak out against most of the regimes in that region but the ones who get away with the worst crimes are the Israeli's. It's all in the history books already.

Maybe Israel learnt from its neighbours?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

Although they've still got some way to go to beat the Syrian level.

[breadandcheese]

1. I don't mean that every person in every country hates them, cos I know that many love them and dance when they have a victory, including the so called victory the other day. But there are massive proportions of most if not all countries that can clearly see what is going on.

2. Yes the have, but you can believe their spokespeople if you like on that issue as well as the aid ship issue.

3. No it isn't a signatory to the treaty, that's the problem in most peoples eyes. Why do they insist on bullying others regards their non aggressive nuclear aspirations while they themselves have many nuclear warheads and nuclear submarines but are not letting anyone know a jot about it.

re 3) It seems they've let you know about the nuclear programme because you seem to know as fact that they've tried to sell nuclear weapons.

Unfortunately for israel's detractors, they didn't try to sell to nuclear weapons. A policy based on nuclear ambiguity makes no sense if you then sell nuclear weapons to other nations. It kind of lets the cat out the bag if you're selling something whilst denying having it, even if you're selling it covertly.

[FoxyPV]

I think Israel's military actions can be very heavy handed, but I do understand why they act in the manner they do. I would say part of it is that they don't have a military solution and so heavy-handed responses are the result. However, there also seems to be no political solution either at the moment.

Then why did you use the imagery?

That is a chicken and egg argument - No political soultion comes from intrinsic political differences that are not helped by completely over the top responses to Hamas attacks on Israel (I'm not condoning the rocket attacks).

I never used Nazi imagery. My statement was one of the persecuted turning into the persecutors. To use Nazi imgery would say that anti-semitism was only publicly accepted in germany when in fact it was pan - european.

[BoneDog]

When you refer to the way Israel got the land to start with, are you referring to the stablishment of the state in 1948? If you are, it has a legal basis, ratified by international law, through United Nations resolutions and agreement by the international community. In that sense, there is absolutely no legal case to answer.

I'm talking about the whole run up to 1948, starting before the World Wars. Highly suspicious political favours between the rich and powerful. And some of these rich and powerful people who were negotiating the takeover of Palestine were also known to be selling weapons and steel to a certain Mr Hitler. All well documented.

Just because a few governments said the takeover of that country was all legal it doesn't mean that the people of the world saw it that way or that it was right.

[Head Honcho]

I was shocked in the early hours when I heard about this. I've been keeping an eye on this story for the past week or so and never thought that the ships would make it to Gaza (even though they were in international waters and not Israeli waters), but I never dreamed that Israel would send in commandos to storm the boats and kill people. But I suppose I should of expected it as they are the only country in the world who can get away with breaking any number of international laws without consequences.

The BBC news coverage of this is diabolical. I've realised why I never watch that fake shit anymore.

Change the record!

IHH = Terrorists = Legitimate target.