BoneDog Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 I was shocked in the early hours when I heard about this. I've been keeping an eye on this story for the past week or so and never thought that the ships would make it to Gaza (even though they were in international waters and not Israeli waters), but I never dreamed that Israel would send in commandos to storm the boats and kill people. But I suppose I should of expected it as they are the only country in the world who can get away with breaking any number of international laws without consequences. The BBC news coverage of this is diabolical. I've realised why I never watch that fake shit anymore.
Jordan Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 It's a bank holiday, it's another tale of Middle East violence--the people won't know and won't care. Israel is doing everything they can this year to alienate itself from many very important members of the international community.
AoWW Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 That's Israel for you - sadly, nothing they do surprises me.
Guest Bilo Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 This is nothing short of disgusting in my opinion. Unlike AOWW, this has actually surprised me as I didn't think the Israelis could stoop so low. Attacking an aid ship in international waters is basically state sanctioned piracy and I'd love to know the reasoning behind it. There can be no justification for this and I hope the international community, including the US and UK, do the right thing and make their displeasure clear.
MC Prussian Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 The US won't say a thing - too close a buddy with the Israelis. Same goes for se Germans, who have successfully provided both Israel as well as the Palestinian side with weapons/weapon technology.
Jordan Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 The US won't say a thing - too close a buddy with the Israelis. Same goes for se Germans, who have successfully provided both Israel as well as the Palestinian side with weapons/weapon technology. As improbable as it seems, I wonder if this is going to be the time that the U.S. has had enough and tells Israel to cool the fvck out. It's no secret that protecting Israel is a disproportionately large interest for the U.S., but Israel is really starting to push our buttons. They're one dumbass move away from dragging us into World War III, and sadly, Israel is fine with that--they're playing a dangerous game of chicken, trying to see how close they can go to forcing the U.S. to step in without actually starting a conflict big enough to do so. Whether one agrees with it or not, as I said earlier, protecting Israel is a huge interest, but right now, getting bogged down in another bloody conflict with no endgame and a severe risk of rapid escalation--definitely a bigger risk than what's going on with our other two conflicts--is definitely NOT an American interest in 2010. edit to add that this is a lovely mixed metaphor
FoxyPV Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 It's a fooking joke. Agree with Jordan that it will be Israel who will spark WWIII. It just amazes me how they continually get away with this yet have the cheek to give off about everything else their neighbours do.
l444ry Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 Playing Devil's advocate here but Israel has not broken any international law. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such a blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea. The protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. Prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were given directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the protesters and acted in self-defence to fend off such attacks. Most people should wait for the dust to settle and the full story of this awful tragedy to emerge. It's almost certain to be less straightforward than the "Israel-murders-harmless-aid-workers" narrative that's currently doing the rounds.
BoneDog Posted 31 May 2010 Author Posted 31 May 2010 Playing Devil's advocate here but Israel has not broken any international law. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such a blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea. The protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. Prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were given directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the protesters and acted in self-defence to fend off such attacks. Most people should wait for the dust to settle and the full story of this awful tragedy to emerge. It's almost certain to be less straightforward than the "Israel-murders-harmless-aid-workers" narrative that's currently doing the rounds. The story that they come out with after showing edited videos and putting their spin on it might be less straightforward, but it won't be the truth. As for the body-armoured, fully armed commandos being met with violence I think the truth is that they fired before they even landed on the ship so the natural reaction would be to attack the attackers in a situation like that. It was an act of piracy in international waters. The Israeli navy could have easily diverted the ships without any need to go aboard. The aid ships were fully checked at port and there were no weapons on board so if some were found then they were very carefully planted there (as so often happens at many ports around the world and the guys who do the paperwork know nothing about it). All passengers also had to go through customs just as any other traveller does. It was all legal and above board. This was a premeditated act. It was a provacation with predictable results and the people who initiated the events will be very pleased with themselves. But as usual, Israel is the aggressor and twists the story to say it was acting in self-defense and some people will believe them.
l444ry Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 The story that they come out with after showing edited videos and putting their spin on it might be less straightforward, but it won't be the truth. As for the body-armoured, fully armed commandos being met with violence I think the truth is that they fired before they even landed on the ship so the natural reaction would be to attack the attackers in a situation like that. It was an act of piracy in international waters. The Israeli navy could have easily diverted the ships without any need to go aboard. The aid ships were fully checked at port and there were no weapons on board so if some were found then they were very carefully planted there (as so often happens at many ports around the world and the guys who do the paperwork know nothing about it). All passengers also had to go through customs just as any other traveller does. It was all legal and above board. This was a premeditated act. It was a provacation with predictable results and the people who initiated the events will be very pleased with themselves. But as usual, Israel is the aggressor and twists the story to say it was acting in self-defense and some people will believe them. Sorry Empty. You're just plain wrong. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea. (Examples: USA blockaded Cuba, UK blockaded The Falklands, the EU blockaded Yugoslavia) See what you think to the following videos. I'd be interested in your comments, unless you think they're part of a great conspiracy!! Weapons found on the Marmara. http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk Peace activists? http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2489.htm
Guest Bilo Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 One thing I will say, and don't think for a second I'm saying that this applies to all criticism of Israel, is that some of the antisemitism doing the rounds on the net is disgusting. Millions are angry with Israel and rightly so, but just as anger with acts of terrorism by Islamic extremists does not justify Islamophobia, anger at Israel does not justify hatred even of Israelis as a whole, much less British Jews. I'm saying this only because antisemitic attacks in Britain were said to have gone up eightfold during last year's Gaza conflict, and it would be terrible if that were repeated as a result of this. Be angry with the Israeli government not Jews as a whole, who have no more to do with this than ordinary British Muslims had to do with 7/7, in spite of all the conspiracy theories.
BoneDog Posted 31 May 2010 Author Posted 31 May 2010 Playing Devil's advocate here but Israel has not broken any international law. I forgot to comment about this. Israel has broken just about every international law known to man! It gets away with flouting UN resolutions unlike any other country, continuously since 1967. Nearly every day for who knows how long they break UN resolution 1701 (iirc) by flying fighter jets over another countries airspace. That is just one of the minor violations of UN law that they are committing. Also, I'm sure that the blockade of Gaza itself is illegal in international law. I'll watch those videos in your other post in a minute so I'll let you know what I think.
BoneDog Posted 31 May 2010 Author Posted 31 May 2010 See what you think to the following videos. I'd be interested in your comments, unless you think they're part of a great conspiracy!! Weapons found on the Marmara. http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk The end of this video just shows that the plan was to take along a few novelty items with them to put on the news. It doesn't really show anything else to me, especially not what happened on the part just before they cut the video that shows the reason why they got rushed. Just saw a few people hitting folk with plastic chairs and sticks or something. (If that is even a real video of last nights events and not just a mock up made a week earlier ). I did see a few good reports when this first happened last night but they don't seem to be available anymore from whoever got them on the air. I've seen that Youtube channel before, it's quite good propaganda. There are some better channels that show the other side of the coin though I think
BoneDog Posted 31 May 2010 Author Posted 31 May 2010 See what you think to the following videos. I'd be interested in your comments, unless you think they're part of a great conspiracy!! Peace activists? I couldn't get the memritv video to play. These videos are not evidence of anything imo. All they show is far off glimpses of a mad rush on deck after the event has started. They show none of the gunfire from the aggressors before thay drop onto the deck. Just edited clips of a panic ridden ship after people have already been shot. It's a natural human reaction I would think. Nothing can justify what happened. We'll probably have a big false flag event soon to divert attention.
breadandcheese Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 I think Israel acted stupidly in this and got suckered into exactly what the protesters wanted. Make no mistake, these were not peaceful supporters. Israel offered to take the aid and send it across the border to Gaza, as did Egypt through one of the Egyptian border crossings with Gaza, but the peaceful activists said no and wanted to run through the blockade. In short, they were working on the basis that if they got through, they would achieve a result, and if not, they would kick up as much publicity as possible and achieve a result that way. In this sense the protesters were prepared for violence (and the videos do show this), although I do not think they expected Israeli soldiers to fire live ammunition. In my eyes, whoever authorised the decision and planned the operation is at fault. The Israeli soldiers were boarding a ship where they were heavily outnumbered and where they were going to face a lynchmob. In that sense, they were being put into a situtation where there lives were threatened, such that they would have no choice but to open fire under the rules of engagement practised by all western militaries. So the question is why they were dropped onto the ship in the first place when the result would be death. So Israel acted in a bungled manner and the result was death. They should have tried other means to disable the ships, but did not and so whoever planned the military action should be facing sanction, so an inquiry is necessary. However, something sits uneasily about the organisers of the protest ship, for it seems they reaped what they sowed. They wanted a PR coup and got it in the most tragic circumstances. This PR coup could have been achieved through the images of protesters being forcibly removed by gun-wielding soldiers whilst they embarked on non-violent protest and sit-ins on a boat of aid. Instead, they decided on violently confronting armed soldiers with metal bars and lynchmobs. If you put a soldier's life in danger, he will fire.
breadandcheese Posted 31 May 2010 Posted 31 May 2010 Israel has broken just about every international law known to man! It gets away with flouting UN resolutions unlike any other country, continuously since 1967. Nearly every day for who knows how long they break UN resolution 1701 (iirc) by flying fighter jets over another countries airspace. That is just one of the minor violations of UN law that they are committing. UN resolution 1701 is ridiculous as it is completely unenforced against both parties, so you cannot talk about it as Israel violating a resolution when Hizbollah receives arms and builds up its weapons through Syrian and Iranian help, in contravention of the resolution. The UN does not seek to enforce it and neutral countries making up the UN monitoring team have little impetus in enforcing it for fear of entering a firefight if it tries to confiscate weapons from Hizbollah, or tries to stop Israeli spyplanes by targetting overflights.
BoneDog Posted 31 May 2010 Author Posted 31 May 2010 UN resolution 1701 is ridiculous as it is completely unenforced against both parties, so you cannot talk about it as Israel violating a resolution when Hizbollah receives arms and builds up its weapons through Syrian and Iranian help, in contravention of the resolution. The UN does not seek to enforce it and neutral countries making up the UN monitoring team have little impetus in enforcing it for fear of entering a firefight if it tries to confiscate weapons from Hizbollah, or tries to stop Israeli spyplanes by targetting overflights. 1701 is only a minor one like I said but there are many major ones that they have been breaking since 1967. No other country can come close to breaking so many international laws without suffering consequences such as sanctions or worse. Only Israel gets away with it so often.
l444ry Posted 1 June 2010 Posted 1 June 2010 1701 is only a minor one like I said but there are many major ones that they have been breaking since 1967. No other country can come close to breaking so many international laws without suffering consequences such as sanctions or worse. Only Israel gets away with it so often. Playing devil's advocate again-: For decades, the United Nations General Assembly has passed countless resolutions condemning Israel for its actions against the Palestinians, while almost never formally addressing Israel's security concerns and the ongoing campaign of Palestinian terrorism against Israelis. The UN has also become an international forum for promoting the Palestinian cause of deligitmising Israel. In the mid-seventies, the General Assembly awarded permanent representative status to the PLO and the UN established the Committee on the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. This panel has become, in effect, part of the PLO propaganda apparatus preparing draft resolutions in support of Palestinian rights. Since the establishment of this committee, the UNGA has passed annual resolutions that repeatedly condemn Israel. Is it any wonder that Israel take the line they do?
Guest Bilo Posted 1 June 2010 Posted 1 June 2010 Playing devil's advocate again-: For decades, the United Nations General Assembly has passed countless resolutions condemning Israel for its actions against the Palestinians, while almost never formally addressing Israel's security concerns and the ongoing campaign of Palestinian terrorism against Israelis. The UN has also become an international forum for promoting the Palestinian cause of deligitmizing Israel. In the mid-seventies, the General Assembly awarded permanent representative status to the PLO and the UN established the “Committee on the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People.” This panel has become, in effect, part of the PLO propaganda apparatus preparing draft resolutions in support of Palestinian “rights.” Since the establishment of this committee, the UNGA has passed annual resolutions that repeatedly condemn Israel. Is it any wonder that Israel take the line they do? Broadly, I have a tendency to agree with you that the UN is has a strong bias against Israel in favour of the Palestinians but it's rendered pretty toothless by the fact that the US attitude to the conflict is more or less exactly the same, only in reverse. The UN's bias means that Israel is able to justify its stance by stating the world is against them but the American stance means they'll never be brought to task for their wrongdoing. In my opinion, both the UN and the US need to get a bit of balance if they're to have a hope of sorting the conflict in the long term.
breadandcheese Posted 1 June 2010 Posted 1 June 2010 Broadly, I have a tendency to agree with you that the UN is has a strong bias against Israel in favour of the Palestinians but it's rendered pretty toothless by the fact that the US attitude to the conflict is more or less exactly the same, only in reverse. The UN's bias means that Israel is able to justify its stance by stating the world is against them but the American stance means they'll never be brought to task for their wrongdoing. In my opinion, both the UN and the US need to get a bit of balance if they're to have a hope of sorting the conflict in the long term. I guess the question has to be asked, is the staunch US position entrenched because of the member states' focus on resolutions against Israel? By that, I mean, does the US entrench itself as a counter-weight against what it considers a bias by UN member states?
Trav Le Bleu Posted 1 June 2010 Posted 1 June 2010 Israel is the little kid who is best mates with the school bully, USA. Seems the USA was the only major nation not to condemn the attack.
FoxyPV Posted 1 June 2010 Posted 1 June 2010 some of the antisemitism doing the rounds on the net is disgusting. I'm saying this only because antisemitic attacks in Britain were said to have gone up eightfold during last year's Gaza conflict, and it would be terrible if that were repeated as a result of this. Be angry with the Israeli government not Jews as a whole It's such a pity people can't separate Anti - Zionism from anti- semitism.
Fosse Boy Posted 1 June 2010 Posted 1 June 2010 It's such a pity people can't separate Anti - Zionism from anti- semitism. Definitely. Awful. Also, I'm not sure why all the usual suspects are touting a boycott of Israeli goods. Goods from Palestine are also marked "Produce of Israel" so the only people actually affected by any such boycott would be the Palestinian and Israeli working classes who produce the goods. It wouldn't change the thinking of the Israeli government one iota.
BoneDog Posted 1 June 2010 Author Posted 1 June 2010 Playing devil's advocate again-: For decades, the United Nations General Assembly has passed countless resolutions condemning Israel for its actions against the Palestinians, while almost never formally addressing Israel's security concerns and the ongoing campaign of Palestinian terrorism against Israelis. The UN has also become an international forum for promoting the Palestinian cause of deligitmising Israel. In the mid-seventies, the General Assembly awarded permanent representative status to the PLO and the UN established the “Committee on the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People.” This panel has become, in effect, part of the PLO propaganda apparatus preparing draft resolutions in support of Palestinian “rights.” Since the establishment of this committee, the UNGA has passed annual resolutions that repeatedly condemn Israel. Is it any wonder that Israel take the line they do? The UN does condemn Israal on occasions but no action is ever taken against them because of the US veto. Israel is breaking many resolutions which just shows how powerful they are. No-one can touch them, especially the USA. UN talk is cheap, and they like to talk about the injustices in Palestine but they don't actually have any power to solve anything about it.
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