Political correctness is not the answer

[Dunc]

What is my ideology?

Are you using my posts to promote your ideology?

152349[/snapback]

For fecks sake mate, you've got about 4-5 threads all relating to religion, wanting to ban islam and none of them have any tiny shread of approval for anything related to it.

Its not a quiz to work out you don't like the idea of Islam and would prefer it to be banned. By extension of this you also promote your beliefs via a percieved them and us mentality.

You seriously can't expect people to read what you post and then put your hands up and in all innocence say "What do you mean? I have no idealogy".

That is the way of all bigots.

[Dunc]

B&C I'm not bothering to argue a point, I've said on another thread this moron should be banned, he's clearly not going to be because he's justifying incitement through Freedom Of Speech.

There is no arguing because Lush won't even accept what he has written let alone admit where his ideals fall.

I'm off back to talking bollocks, amazed that bigotry on this scale can apparently go unpunished on a supposed friendly forum.

[lush]

The actual rape was not motivated by racial prejudice, which is what you have continuously implied from the start.  I am pleased that your stance is now beginning to soften in that you appreciate you cannot assert that this rape was racially motivated  (although you still hint at such). 

Unfortunately, we do not know the mindset of this despicable man, but I suspect that it could have been any vulnerable girl that night (black, white or yellow) .  I am still deeply troubled that you would even consider linking this case as a racial crime in the first place.

With regards Hopley, do not deliberately misconstrue the point.  My mentioning of the Asian family is precisely to stop groups such as the BNP from whipping up hysteria .  That is not in anyway a defence of the action of his murderers.  Your intellect is higher than that.  His murderers should be brought to justice for their crime and in no way am I defending their actions .

As for your holier than thou crusader of justice in society point, here is the reality of society's responsibilities.  The strong and more powerful elements have a duty to protect the weaker elements of society.  History is littered with examples where the powerful and more numerous elements have abused their position.  So here is the truth.  The 40-odd million strong white community is the majority of the country . 

Again (this is a recurring point), you cast an aspersion as to what the truth is based on nothing but a few editorials and commentaries (again, not based in fact ). 

Your posts and your "I am merely the messenger" style are irresponsible, precisely because they do not try to tackle or eradicate the discrimination you are so against.  There is no ideas vs. ideas.  Your posts are one-sided examples that merely seek to stir-up divides .  If anything, they could be construed as inflammatory, stirring-up divides.  As you yourself admit describing how there would be uproar, "If the WC new the truth about racial discrimination against them, there would be uproar", which you agree would be bad for society but are quite happy to stir up .  At least, you are aware that if people believed your posts of half-truths and falsities, you would be encouraging racial tension rather than remidying it.

152362[/snapback]

ONLY marcus knows whether his rape was racial prejudice or not.

But the facts are, that it WAS a white girl.

I bet you are deeply worried, you`d rather believe that all is good, and bad could never happen. marcus produced racial discriminatory actions towards this girl, before rapping her. I dont know whether his intentions were to racially rape her, but the facts remain the the most likely actions were racial, and for you to carry on denying that possibility infavour of the opposite, tells me your defending him, more than her.

So by the asian family helping gavin, that means the racial murder is not big news, its not something that we should concern ourselves with?

Glad to hear your not defending them, but what you do suggest is that the murder is less important, because the BNP are using this story, and that aint fair because an asian family tried helping gavin.

Are you a journalist? trained by bill anderson?

So because people are white, that means ALL white people SHOULD protect non whites? What a dour mind your portraying.

For your information, there are as weaker whites, as there are weak non whites.

And dont think for one minute you answered my theory, you failed miserably.

your beginning to seriously bore me, and doubt whether you actually read and reply to what i say.

The facts are thus: the media dont report anti-white racial discrimination, in ANY way near the same importance of anti-non white stories.

`stir up divides`, now your a mind reader

GROW UP DUDE!!

I dont want `uproar`, i want the truth, ive told you that.

Do you even consider asking, before assuming

No, encouraging the truth, now repeat that back to me, i wana know you read and understood what ive said???????????

[lush]

Its not a quiz to work out you don't like the idea of Islam and would prefer it to be banned.

You seriously can't expect people to read what you post and then put your hands up and in all innocence say "What do you mean? I have no idealogy".

That is the way of all bigots.

152377[/snapback]

Your right i would like islam banned, i would like all religions banned from decent society.

Who said i have no ideology

Your biggotry is blinding me.

[lush]

B&C I'm not bothering to argue a point, I've said on another thread this moron should be banned, he's clearly not going to be because he's justifying incitement through Freedom Of Speech.

There is no arguing because Lush won't even accept what he has written let alone admit where his ideals fall.

I'm off back to talking bollocks, amazed that bigotry on this scale can apparently go unpunished on a supposed friendly forum.

152381[/snapback]

Amazing how bigotry is justyfied, when it attacks another?

[Dunc]

How can I bigoted when I've already agreed with you that racism can be against white people. My stance is that 5% of people of all religions, races, colour, creed etc are complete scum bags whereas you seem to believe that there is a us & them.

Its up to all of us to eliminate this kind of small minded one upmanship not seperate the arguments into black v white, asian v black etc etc.

[breadandcheese]

ONLY marcus knows whether his rape was racial prejudice or not.

But the facts are, that it WAS a white girl.

I bet you are deeply worried, you`d rather believe that all is good, and bad could never happen. marcus produced racial discriminatory actions towards this girl, before rapping her. I dont know whether his intentions were to racially rape her, but the facts remain the the most likely actions were racial, and for you to carry on denying that possibility infavour of the opposite, tells me your defending him, more than her.

So by the asian family helping gavin, that means the racial murder is not big news, its not something that we should concern ourselves with?

Glad to hear your not defending them, but what you do suggest is that the murder is less important, because the BNP are using this story, and that aint fair because an asian family tried helping gavin.

Are you a journalist? trained by bill anderson?

So because people are white, that means ALL white people SHOULD protect non whites? What a dour mind your portraying.

For your information, there are as weaker whites, as there are weak non whites.

And dont think for one minute you answered my theory, you failed miserably.

your beginning to seriously bore me, and doubt whether you actually read and reply to what i say.

The facts are thus: the media dont report anti-white racial discrimination, in ANY way near the same importance of anti-non white stories.

`stir up divides`, now your a mind reader

GROW UP DUDE!!

I dont want `uproar`, i want the truth, ive told you that.

Do you even consider asking, before assuming

No, encouraging the truth, now repeat that back to me, i wana know you read and understood what ive said???????????

152388[/snapback]

You continually amaze me with your ability to read and adapt half-truths and unknowns to suit your argument. Your argument is all false.

Let me deconstruct your argument again.

With regards Marus Artry. The facts are he raped a white girl. Now because she was white and he was black, you cast this as a racially motivated assault. Surely that is the ultimate political correctness gone wrong. Your view of "Quick, a black man raped a white girl, it's racism" is just as insane as those who seek to rename blackboards as chalkboards. Then you have the audacity to cast aspersions that I am a fantasist living in a magical make believe world. Sadly, I feel that tag belongs to you. You then proceed to turn this into a "Your defending him" and I'm defending the white girl style argument. A them versus us mentality. As Dunc remarked in an earlier post, the true language of a bigot. I am not defending Mr Artry's actions. Not once have I done this. You have misconstrued this from start to finish. I have attacked your misheld belief that this was a racially motivated attack.

With regards Hopley, I am unsure how you can misconstrue my point so badly. Not once do I suggest his murder is less important. I am attacking the tactics groups such as the BNP use, with the hysteria they whip up through manipulation of the facts. Again, this is not a defence of Hopley's murderers, this is an attack on the tactics used by the BNP, those same tactic which you seem to find comfort in.

True, there are weak whites in society. That doesn't disprove my earlier post where I state the powerful majority groups have a responsibility to protect the weaker groups in society, whoever they may be.

From your theory (if you can call it that), an ideal solution that would fit in with your beliefs is if the media stopped reporting racist incidents altogether. Of course, this wouldn't tackle the problems that exist. Not forgetting the most important part, our legal institution are above the media and so the important point is whether criminals (black or white - i.e. the murderers of both Mr. Hopley and Mr. Lawrence) are caught and sentenced. The media is therefore to an extent irrelevant, yet you are most concerned with that.

[lush]

How can I bigoted when I've already agreed with you that racism can be against white people.  My stance is that 5% of people of all religions, races, colour, creed etc are complete scum bags whereas you seem to believe that there is a us & them .

Its up to all of us to eliminate this kind of small minded one upmanship not seperate the arguments into black v white, asian v black etc etc.

152410[/snapback]

You agree with me, and then call me bigotted

That my friend, is a bigotted view point.

`you seem to believe...`

How about asking, before assuming? Wrong assumptions will cause distressful situations.

I agree with your next point. Try not to assume im doing that, i merely point out harm to a section of our community, to even the balance of fair play. i have not mentioned anything along the lines of asian v whites etc.

Had the opposite been reality, i would do the same.

Please tell me you understand what im saying?

If you dont, ASK me, dont accusse me with assumptions.

[breadandcheese]

You agree with me, and then call me bigotted

That my friend, is a bigotted view point.

`you seem to believe...`

How about asking, before assuming? Wrong assumptions will cause distressful situations.

I agree with your next point. Try not to assume im doing that, i merely point out harm to a section of our community, to even the balance of fair play. i have not mentioned anything along the lines of asian v whites etc.

Had the opposite been reality, i would do the same.

Please tell me you understand what im saying?

If you dont, ASK me, dont accusse me with assumptions.

152532[/snapback]

Ha Ha, pot kettle black springs to mind.

[lush]

With regards Marus Artry.  The facts are he raped a white girl.  Now because she was white and he was black, you cast this as a racially motivated assault . 

Surely that is the ultimate political correctness gone wrong.  Your view of "Quick, a black man raped a white girl, it's racism " is just as insane as those who seek to rename blackboards as chalkboards.

You then proceed to turn this into a "Your defending him" and I'm defending the white girl style argument.  A them versus us mentality.  As Dunc remarked in an earlier post, the true language of a bigot.  I am not defending Mr Artry's actions .  Not once have I done this.  You have misconstrued this from start to finish. I have attacked your misheld belief that this was a racially motivated attack.

With regards Hopley, I am unsure how you can misconstrue my point so badly.  Not once do I suggest his murder is less important.  I am attacking the tactics groups such as the BNP use, with the hysteria they whip up through manipulation of the facts.  Again, this is not a defence of Hopley's murderers, this is an attack on the tactics used by the BNP , those same tactic which you seem to find comfort in.

True, there are weak whites in society.  That doesn't disprove my earlier post where I state the powerful majority groups have a responsibility to protect the weaker groups in society, whoever they may be .

From your theory (if you can call it that), an ideal solution that would fit in with your beliefs is if the media stopped reporting racist incidents altogether .

Of course, this wouldn't tackle the problems that exist.  Not forgetting the most important part, our legal institution are above the media and so the important point is whether criminals (black or white - i.e. the murderers of both Mr. Hopley and Mr. Lawrence) are caught and sentenced.  The media is therefore to an extent irrelevant , yet you are most concerned with that.

152419[/snapback]

You admitted he racially abused her, correct.

So, occams razor (the simplest explantion, tends to be the correct one). Im NOT saying he racially raped her, im saying its the most likely cause.

Does your next point 100% explain what ive said? NO.

So incitement to racial hatred on your part, yes.

Its great to finally understand whose side your on with the artry rape.

So you dont defend hopleys murderers, by attacking the BNP and talking about the asian family trying to help him? because, thats how it came accross.

Should the stronger number colour of the white community, help the weaker numbered non white community, on colour basis alone?

No, i would like a genuine news media to report equal and fair reporting, from any subject. If they cannot/dont want to do that, then society loses out, and they cannot be called genuine news worthy organisations.

If the media gave a balanced view, then we wouldnt need to discuss it here.

[Dunc]

You agree with me, and then call me bigotted

That my friend, is a bigotted view point.

152532[/snapback]

Nice use of bold to link 2 parts of a paragraph not the bit in between which is the thrust of the 4 lines, changing the point, which is a cheap trick.

Do you actually know what the definition of bigotry is?! Well clearly not so here's a few defintions.

http://www.answers.com/topic/bigotry

[Dunc]

You admitted he racially abused her, correct.

So, occams razor (the simplest explantion, tends to be the correct one). Im NOT saying he racially raped her, im saying its the most likely cause.

152549[/snapback]

In that case I'm saying you're a cock and its your lack of intelligence that is the most likely cause.

Hopefully you'll note the irony.

[lush]

Do you actually know what the definition of bigotry is?! here's a few defintions. 

152552[/snapback]

Now i know you know what bigotry means, why do you deny that your one when you show hatred towards me?

[lush]

In that case I'm saying you're a cock and its your lack of intelligence that is the most likely cause.

Hopefully you'll note the irony.

152556[/snapback]

Your bigoted behaviour is dazzling me.

Please show some peace?

[Dunc]

Now i know you know what bigotry means, why do you deny that your one when you show hatred towards me?

152561[/snapback]

When have I shown hatred towards you? Incredulence and pity yes, hatred no. And thats not the actual definition of bigotry anyway.

Your bigoted behaviour is dazzling me.

Please show some peace?

152564[/snapback]

The irony was lost then.

BTW - on this whole media thing how do you stand on the fact that many Ethnic Minorities feel there is a lack of coverage over missing children. In the case of photogenic white anglo-saxon children there is huge publicity, when was the last time you saw a black/asian/chinese child on the front pages of the newspapers after they had gone missing?

[breadandcheese]

You admitted he racially abused her, correct.

So, occams razor (the simplest explantion, tends to be the correct one). Im NOT saying he racially raped her, im saying its the most likely cause.

Does your next point 100% explain what ive said? NO.

So incitement to racial hatred on your part, yes.

Its great to finally understand whose side your on with the artry rape.

So you dont defend hopleys murderers, by attacking the BNP and talking about the asian family trying to help him? because, thats how it came accross.

Should the stronger number colour of the white community, help the weaker numbered non white community, on colour basis alone?

No, i would like a genuine news media to report equal and fair reporting, from any subject. If they cannot/dont want to do that, then society loses out, and they cannot be called genuine news worthy organisations.

If the media gave a balanced view, then we wouldnt need to discuss it here.

152549[/snapback]

You want to discuss Occams Razor. Fine, let's have a look.

The most likely cause of rape unfortunately is not racism. It is far more complex than that and involves issues of power, anger, inadequacy, etc in a sexual context, either as a result of upbringing or developmental problems, etc. If this man was a racist, he would most likely have attacked a person violently (i.e. gbh). Thus the profile of a racist committing this sort of act does not fit. The closest association you can get with this crime being racist is the mis-spelling of rapist. I hope this puts your ludicrous link finally to bed. Your continual linking of this to racism is hugely troubling.

On an important note, the criminal justice system in this country worked and Mr. Artry has been sent down for a long time. That is called successful justice and works independent of and above the media.

I find your debating style of trying to paint me as associated with supporting rape and condoning murder as laughable. It shows you in a far worse light than I could hope to achieve by arguing down your points.

I'm not even sure what your remark about helping society on colour basis alone means. Once again, I have continually remarked that a society must stand up and support its weakest members. Not once is colour mentioned. You are the one who mentions it.

Sadly, you are incapable of providing that fair and balanced view for this forum that you crave. You do not "level" it up. You distort the truth as evident from your arguing on the Artry Rape and the Hopley murder. You are prejudiced and a bigot.

[lush]

When have I shown hatred towards you? Incredulence and pity yes, hatred no.  And thats not the actual definition of bigotry anyway.

The irony was lost then. 

BTW - on this whole media thing how do you stand on the fact that many Ethnic Minorities feel there is a lack of coverage over missing children.  In the case of photogenic white anglo-saxon children there is huge publicity, when was the last time you saw a black/asian/chinese child on the front pages of the newspapers after they had gone missing?

152571[/snapback]

1.23pm Ive said on another thread this moron should be banned`.

So your a bigot. Admit it now?

What children are missing? have you got names and circumstances?

[lush]

You want to discuss Occams Razor. Fine, let's have a look.

The most likely cause of rape unfortunately is not racism .

I hope this puts your ludicrous link finally to bed . 

Your continual linking of this to racism is hugely troubling . 

On an important note, the criminal justice system in this country worked and Mr. Artry has been sent down for a long time.  That is called successful justice and works independent of and above the media.

I find your debating style of trying to paint me as associated with supporting rape and condoning murder as laughable.  It shows you in a far worse light than I could hope to achieve by arguing down your points .

I'm not even sure what your remark about helping society on colour basis alone means .  Once again, I have continually remarked that a society must stand up and support its weakest members.  Not once is colour mentioned.  You are the one who mentions it.

Sadly, you are incapable of providing that fair and balanced view for this forum that you crave.  You do not "level" it up.  You distort the truth as evident from your arguing on the Artry Rape and the Hopley murder.  You are prejudiced and a bigot.

152574[/snapback]

There you go twisting the subject again. The most like REASON is racism.

No it doesnt, your `explanation` of this motivated rape is pathetic. A 10 year old could work it out better than you.

why is it troubling, its a very likely scenario, what scenario do you have, oh yes i know, government statistics

Lets deal with the facts here mate.

Absolutely, this evil `human` needs to be taught a lesson. I only hope prison works, but im not sure it will. I think marcus will come out more sexually frustrated and quite possibly more angry with white people than before.

With a bit of luck, he`ll have good family backing and AFC`s help when/if he comes out.

Then i suggest you dont write words that attach you to defending the guilty.

You pointed out that the 40 million white community should help the others, because their a stronger set of people in society.

I just asked why?

I take it you now resort to name calling as a way of justifying your `argument`.

You cannot provide evidence of your statement. I suggest you refrain from talking with me again, untill you can behave sensibly.

[Dunc]

1.23pm Ive said on another thread this moron should be banned`.

So your a bigot. Admit it now?

What children are missing? have you got names and circumstances?

152585[/snapback]

1) I fail to see how the word moron is an example of hatred.

2) Obviously not because they haven't had the media coverage. But I asked you what you thought if it were the case. Would it affect your views?

[Thracian]

For whatever reason, these statistics are either not recorded or not available.  Consquently (and this is one of the arguments I must keep providing), we can not make an argument or reasoned point based on assumptions of unknown statistics.

As we all know, statistics show a trend without explaining the reasoning for such a trend.  So to quote statistics without exploration of the data is again misleading. 

For example, taking this absurd rape example further, a trend may or may not identify more rapes of non-whites on white women than non-whites on non-whites.  To explain this as a racial divide or racial incident is again a failure to investigate the reasons behind this.  For example, it may be that there are more white women in vulnerable situations (e.g. walking home drunk alone after a night out) than non-white.

The point I am making is that aspersions are being cast based on unknowns or  half-truths, which is irresponsible.

In answer to your question, "Am I ready to face the truth?".  Yes, I am, gladly, however, I have not yet been confronted by it from the evidence that has been presented in these posts.

152274[/snapback]

They certainly are recorded. It is just that Governments, and this Government especially, will blatantly choose "a good day to hide bad news" or to do/say anything else which achieves their goals without revealing the true facts of the arguments for/against.

The latest, and only the latest examples of this are Identity Cards, Speed Cameras and (today's Daily Mail front page) Gambling Casinos.

If you can't get truth to debate because the Government is full of people with forked tongues then it is hardly surprising that people draw their own conclusions.

Just as I'd like Kats to answer the questions I posed her, so I'd like these questions answered. I always feel very suspicious when there's a "no comment".

[Katy]

They certainly are recorded. It is just that Governments, and this Government especially, will blatantly choose "a good day to hide bad news" or to do/say anything else which achieves their goals without revealing the true facts of the arguments for/against.

The latest, and only the latest examples of this are Identity Cards, Speed Cameras and (today's Daily Mail front page) Gambling Casinos.

If you can't get truth to debate because the Government is full of people with forked tongues then it is hardly surprising that people draw their own conclusions.

Just as I'd like Kats to answer the questions I posed her, so I'd like these questions answered. I always feel very suspicious when there's a "no comment".

152612[/snapback]

Read the thread that the question was asked in and you will find my answer!

[breadandcheese]

There you go twisting the subject again. The most like REASON is racism.

No it doesnt, your `explanation` of this motivated rape is pathetic. A 10 year old could work it out better than you.

why is it troubling, its a very likely scenario, what scenario do you have, oh yes i know, government statistics  

Lets deal with the facts here mate.

Absolutely, this evil `human` needs to be taught a lesson. I only hope prison works, but im not sure it will. I think marcus will come out more sexually frustrated and quite possibly more angry with white people than before.

With a bit of luck, he`ll have good family backing and AFC`s help when/if he comes out.

Then i suggest you dont write words that attach you to defending the guilty.

You pointed out that the 40 million white community should help the others, because their a stronger set of people in society.

I just asked why?

I take it you now resort to name calling as a way of justifying your `argument`.

You cannot provide evidence of your statement. I suggest you refrain from talking with me again, untill you can behave sensibly.

152600[/snapback]

You talk of Artry's most likely reason for his rape being racism and accuse me of twisting the subject. My explanation of rape is pathetic, apparently. Unfortunately, its not my explanation, its those of a body of psychologists who have studied and debated criminal psychology for their profession. I would like to meet your genius 10 year old who is able to process, profile and explain criminal psychology better than experienced graduates with many years professional experience. So, no, I'm afraid it isn't government statistics, its independent researchers and professionals. Feel free to argue with them and rewrite crinminal psychology all you like, but without your super genius 10 year old kid, you may struggle to argue your point beyond "He was black, she was white."

The reason it is troubling that you associate Artry's case as racially motivated, is that it shows your prejudiced view. It was a criminal act. He was locked up. However, you keep telling yourself and proclaiming it was racist and that he is "angry with white people". He probably is an angry individual, but may I suggest it is directed at life in general and not any individual group of people. If (although in all probability when according to the statistics) Mr. Artry reoffends after his release, it will not be racially motivated or because he is a black man, it is more likely due to his poor career prospects and situation (occams razor), and the justice system will punish him accordingly.

In asking why the white community should help all weaker members of society, you show what an upstanding, responsible and emphatic member of society you are (note the sarcasm).

You suggested that I attempted to defend the guilty. Again, I suggest you consult that genius ten-year old, for maybe he will be able to teach you English and point out once again, that not once do I condone the actions of any of the criminals involved.

I think I can safely say you are prejudiced and bigoted as backed up by your comments in just this topic alone. Maybe we should have a poll on it. You espouse the virtues of free discussion, reporting and democracy. Well we have had that for many of your topics so people know the vitriolic half-truths you come out with. So is Lush prejudiced and a bigot? I vote yes.

[lush]

1) I fail to see how the word moron is an example of hatred. 

2) Obviously not because they haven't had the media coverage.  But I asked you what you thought if  it were the case.  Would it affect your views?

152603[/snapback]

So when you called me a moron, you didnt have ANY hatred running through your vains at the time

Haters use words to express how they feel, and thats what you did.

If it were the case, then it would be unequal coverage. Are you trying to create a `IF` situation to reality, because it doesnt work. Talk about facts that we can agree on?

[lush]

You talk of Artry's most likely reason for his rape being racism

However, you keep telling yourself and proclaiming it was racist

and that he is "angry with white people ".

If (although in all probability when according to the statistics) Mr. Artry reoffends after his release, it will not be racially motivated or because he is a black man, it is more likely due to his poor career prospects and situation (occams razor), and the justice system will punish him accordingly .

So is Lush prejudiced and a bigot?  I vote yes .

152619[/snapback]

what is the most likely reason then, oh great one?

No, i keep telling you that its occams razor, but you dont listen.

Where does it say that i said hes `angry with white people`?

i agree with your stance on his most likely rape, should he do so again, but unlike you, i wouldnt say it not racial, it could be any reason.

is breadandcheese prejudice and bigotted, i also vote yes.

[breadandcheese]

what is the most likely reason then, oh great one?

No, i keep telling you that its occams razor, but you dont listen.

Where does it say that i said hes `angry with white people`?

i agree with your stance on his most likely rape, should he do so again, but unlike you, i wouldnt say it not racial, it could be any reason.

is breadandcheese prejudice and bigotted, i also vote yes.

152631[/snapback]

The most likely reason for his rape is complex, emotional and related to issues of inadequacy, power, domination, sexual inadequacy, upbringing, developmental behaviour.

Now you suddenly hide behind some half-bit theory you've learnt. It's not me calling this rape racist, its occams razor. Who are you kidding?

And I quote: "I think marcus will come out more sexually frustrated and quite possibly more angry with white people than before." You clearly imply and assert he was angry with white people before he was imprisoned.

I do concede that where I wrote reoffend on my earlier post, I meant to put commit another crime. It is likely he will be in trouble with the police again, not necessarily rape. Now I use your half-bit theory occam's razor to deduce that if he commits another crime, the most likely reason is situation and desperation(possibly drug related if he is from a deprived area).