Israel

[breadandcheese]

It's the Zionist lobby in the states who are the true puppeteers, very powerful.

Israel is nothing more than an extention of America's hegemony.

Owen Jones on the recent Gaza bombardment:

Excellent watch.

Could it not be that the reason some Western countries have sympathy for Israel is because they believe them and agree with them, rather than some shadowy conspiracy?

Owen Jones is a very good orator, but sadly, I think his facts need checking. 190 rockets were fired into Israel in October (facts from Wikipedia), which is before the incident he mentions when he declares Israel started this current round. Fair enough, you can say that the closure of Gaza borders is a problem, but it is as much a problem as Egypt's as Israel. Egypt has a border with Gaza, which it keeps closed. I don't think anyone but the wildest conspiracy theorist can seriously believe that the Muslim Brotherhood are actually Zionists so why do they keep the border closed? This is not just Israel imposing a blockade on certain materials entering Gaza.

In terms of Israel's operations in Gaza, no-one should nor does celebrate the loss of innocent lives, but I think it is worth noting that despite the popular labels thrown around of Israel as butchers committing wanton genocide, the facts do not stand up to that. In over 2,000 air strikes, 180 Palestinian lost their lives (of which the UN estimates 77 to be militants). A number of things can be drawn from this:

- Firstly, that is an extraordinarily low kill rate from the amount and strength of the air-strikes in such a built up area.

- Secondly, the ratio of civilian to militant death toll ratio is approx 1.3:1. Recent military operations in Afghanistan, Iraq and Kosovo have produced an average ratio of 4 civilian deaths to every 1 combatant (again, thank you Wikipedia for the data), which is far higher than the ratio in Gaza. So, whether you agree with Israel's actions of air-strikes, the charges of genocide or massacre are wrong. if you want to see that, look over in Syria where over 100 people per day are dying, so over the eight day period of Israel's recent Gaza operation, an estimated 800 people were killed. Or you could look at how Russia handled terrorism in Chechnya with casualty figures that dwarf Palestinian deaths.

Now this is clearly no comfort to those innocent Palestinians who lost their lives, but it shouldn't be disregarded and should be remembered when labels are thrown around. The irony of the Syrian government condemning the atrocities in Gaza was not lost on anyone.

We do all know the solution and that is to partition the country into a two state solution. I think Amos Oz has it correct when he says both people (Israelis and Palestinians) are right, that is the great tragedy. The difficulty is how to get to the two state solution, which polls show both the majority of Israelis and Palestinians support. I don't have an answer to that, as their is no trust between either side. Very few Israelis will agree to a Palestinian state being set-up if it is hostile. Similarly, very few Palestinians will agree to a peace if they do not have full independence over their state, without interference from Israel.

[Guest MattP]

That's probably the best and most sensible post in the thread.