Benazir Bhutto

[James.]

I'm just a grain of sand on a beach in terms of how many people this will affect in one way or another but it frustrates me when someone who has tried to make a difference dies and people just say she had it coming. I'm not even saying she was fighting a good fight but at least she had the courage to try and achieve what she wanted in such difficult circumstances.

Absolutely. It smacks of ignorance for people to write her off as asking for it. Like you I'm not particularly qualified professionally or personally to talk about this but I do have respect for someone who stood firm to her beliefs and tried to make a difference.

I've been reading Muhammad Yunus's book about the Grameen Bank (he won the Nobel Peace Prize last year) and part of it talks about the fight for democracy and independence in Bangladesh. He, along with numerous others, fought so hard for the recognition of Bangladesh as a new country and were willing to die for such a cause.

Due to the society in which we live I feel many people fail to relate to such struggles. Everything comes so easily to us, we shoud be grateful to live in a democracy that enables this lifestyle. But at the same time we should recognise the importance of women like Bhutto amonst others as they are willing to fight for values which many of us take for granted.

[filbertboy]

I know nothing of worthwhile note concerning politics but I do know tradegy and sadness when it happens and thats what I felt yesterday on hearing this very sad news. A very brave lady indeed. RIP Benazir Bhutto.

[Guest]

It was always suicide going back but do you think her death will end up serving a positive purpose?

If you mean, do I think any good will come of it, then no. I don't. Her own father was killed for his beliefs, and it is sad that she has also suffered the same fate. I only know from what I read and from what I see on TV, but I don't think much will change.

[Thracian]

It s amazing how these sort of people dont care about their own safety in order to do what they feel is the best for their own country and people.

Thats the difference between them and us mere mortals.

They reckon Al Qaeda did it.

More like the military ruling party.

BUt i dont know enough about it,so id best shut up....

One might hope that another moderate - better perhaps a moderate woman - is brave enough and strong enough to take Benazir Bhutto's place but it seems highly unlikely.

Unfortunately I doubt that moderation and dialogue will ever be effective against Islamic extremism because the Islamic drive centres around cleverly worded and administered doctrine which has only one aim - world domination by that religion.

The Islamic faith is not like Christianity. It is non-negotiable for its followers. Some Muslims may be prepared to live alongside other religions like Christianity but essentially the hardliners only accept one true pathway and believe the sooner the misguided ones see the error of their ways the better.

And, for women, adherence to Islamic beliefs is ingrained from the outset of their lives. Independent thought is not encouraged. First and foremost women are there to provide healthy Muslim sons and daughters. They are expected to be loyal to their menfolk and to their faith.

There may be massive need in some people's eyes for educated women to increase their influence in the ruthless and relentless world of Muslim extremism but where and how could the necessary catalyst emerge?

Sharia law would deal terminally and, in the administrators' views justly, with any Muslim whose actions were deemed to be obstructing the progress of Islam throughout the world. And democracy, which Bhutto supported, might well be deemed obstructive as would opposition to their own programme.

To try applying Western reasoning to Islamic thought is folly.

Sometimes it may be expedient for the followers of Islam to negotiate and to take a moderate line (something built into their philosophy as being fine if it acts as the means to an end) but in reality the doctrine of Islam offers no option for compromise. To the Muslim, non-believers are to be pitied or are even beyond contempt.

Even now, many in our country fail to understand that or have allowed themselves to be pressured and persuaded to compromise, like the Government and the BBC.

People have asked who is Benazir Bhutto and of what importance is her assassination to us?

Well there are various potential triggers for world confrontation. Pakistan is one of them.

Pakistan is a Muslim power which has nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons in moderate hands are one thing, in extremist fundamentalist hands quite another. Neighbouring India is a massive emerging economy deeply suspicious and concerned about Pakistan. India too has nuclear capability.

Russia and China are keen to spread their influence in the world on the back of their developing economies and at the expense of unsubtle America.

Put all those factors together with a few mavericks like Iran and you have a recipe for potential world conflict in the short or medium term.

Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's opposition leader and a fierce critic of Al Qaeda, was considered an ally of America who, it was hoped, could have worked against extremism, for peaceful co-existence and for democracy.

But democracy is not something that is on the agenda of Islamic extremists and it is now uncertain which way the country will lurch in the aftermath of Bhutto's assassination.

America will be extremely concerned and there are those who will only seek to gain from that.

[Thracian]

Both interesting to read. I used to be capable of this sort of thing when I was doing my Politics degree but it's all gone now, two years out in the working world doing mind-numbing office chores as dragged it out of me. It's a real shame as I know deep down I feel respect for Benazir Bhutto but I can't speak about her with any sort of conviction. I did some work experience at the House of Commons once and the PPS I was working with shared an office with another PPS who worked for the chairman of an international relations select committee who was having a meeting that day with Benazir Bhutto.

When I hear about this sort of thing happening, I realise this is what I am interested in and wonder how I have managed to get stuck in a dead-end office job doing nothing all day.

I'm just a grain of sand on a beach in terms of how many people this will affect in one way or another but it frustrates me when someone who has tried to make a difference dies and people just say she had it coming. I'm not even saying she was fighting a good fight but at least she had the courage to try and achieve what she wanted in such difficult circumstances.

Not sure, from what you say, what you are interested in.

Being brave, making a difference, having worldwide impact? Or all three!

You are clearly studious and would seem to be intelligent.

But to make the sort of stand Bhutto has made you have to believe in something.

Not just read books or speeches and simply absorb the influence of others.

But believe in something from within.

And those beliefs have to stand the test of opposition and you have to be able to defend them and, if necessary, adjust them.

People laugh at me for being outrageous or deliberately provocative. But I still got 1000 views and 100 replies out of that drink-driving thread and know a damn sight more about the issue now than when I started - and about different people's views, prejudices, blindspots, convictions, expertise than would ever have been the case if I'd said sod all.

It's not even really a matter of right and wrong. How many philosophies, even simple ones, can you possibly say are

categorically sound?

I've never kidded myself on that score.

But in small ways, certainly in sporting circles, I've expressed belief in something and when others have been persuaded to think similarly those beliefs have been more effective than were it otherwise.

Thing is, for you, you've got to decide what you believe in and then, of course, you've got to be either inspirational and/or charismatic enough to be followed or content enough to be quietly influential in the background.

Surely either prospect is better than some dead-end office job which you clearly don't enjoy.

When 19 my youngest son opened my eyes on things like that. He had a decent job at Sketchley Grange. But he wanted to learn to be a snow sports instructor.

So he gave up the job, attached himself to an Alpine hotel as a chef and did four months of snow sports training towards his qualifications at the same time. He never regretted the decision for a minute and takes that approach whenever he wants to do something.

The line of one of my favourite Asia songs goes "Do What You Want to Anyway..."

Life's to short for half-measures and uncertainties.

Map out a real future for yourself and go for it Fez.

You're bright, you seem popular, you've got a good sense of reason and you seem to want to be something.

Question is do you want anything enough?

Cos if you don't, my advice is to find something. However humble or far-reaching.

Live life for real.

Good luck. I mean that sincerely.

[Fez of Mahrez]

[Flynny]

One might hope that another moderate - better perhaps a moderate woman - is brave enough and strong enough to take Benazir Bhutto's place but it seems highly unlikely.

Unfortunately I doubt that moderation and dialogue will ever be effective against Islamic extremism because the Islamic drive centres around cleverly worded and administered doctrine which has only one aim - world domination by that religion.

The Islamic faith is not like Christianity. It is non-negotiable for its followers. Some Muslims may be prepared to live alongside other religions like Christianity but essentially the hardliners only accept one true pathway and believe the sooner the misguided ones see the error of their ways the better.

And, for women, adherence to Islamic beliefs is ingrained from the outset of their lives. Independent thought is not encouraged. First and foremost women are there to provide healthy Muslim sons and daughters. They are expected to be loyal to their menfolk and to their faith.

There may be massive need in some people's eyes for educated women to increase their influence in the ruthless and relentless world of Muslim extremism but where and how could the necessary catalyst emerge?

Sharia law would deal terminally and, in the administrators' views justly, with any Muslim whose actions were deemed to be obstructing the progress of Islam throughout the world. And democracy, which Bhutto supported, might well be deemed obstructive as would opposition to their own programme.

To try applying Western reasoning to Islamic thought is folly.

Sometimes it may be expedient for the followers of Islam to negotiate and to take a moderate line (something built into their philosophy as being fine if it acts as the means to an end) but in reality the doctrine of Islam offers no option for compromise. To the Muslim, non-believers are to be pitied or are even beyond contempt.

Even now, many in our country fail to understand that or have allowed themselves to be pressured and persuaded to compromise, like the Government and the BBC.

I'd tend to agree with the bulk of this. Christianity seems to have had its edges knocked off by secularism and for many is more a philosophy, a reason to be nice and a vague hope at the end of it all, rather than a "proper" religion. Even at its extremes, demonstrated in the US, Christianity would seem to be less harmful than Islam, though both are more than capable of setting people firmly against progress.

Islam in the UK seems to have undergone a similar thing for the most part. People are still believers but take a much more moderate outlook more in line with society today. I'm fairly confident the religious population will continue to dwindle in the UK and similarly developed nations because of this as "real life" continues to take priority, as patronising as that probably sounds.

I've no idea whats going to happen in the world, but if pushed I'd predict a war between the Secular West and Hardline Islam. It could so easy happen.