Searching for the Holy Grail

[James.]

Exactly the same point had struck me today about people knowing there's something wrong but not being able to define what it is and you offer some damn good pointers.

There are so many potential theories you could write a thesis but good management to me may involve the most detailed attention to detail but is essentialy instinctive. It's about having a feel for people and understanding what makes them tick and how to get their best response.

I remember Levein humiliating Nils. I remember Kelly talking about "going with experience" and I've read of Holloways actual and veiled public criticism of the players. The instincts of all three let them down.

A manager has to "live" his players. He's the head of the family, the guy who's personal strength and charisma makes he players think they can walk on water while he's around.

Successive city managers have been flawed.

Good post, Thrac.

It got me thinking, as a manager of a number of staff that moved in to a new job, it took me two or three months at least to get results.

Although I knew what I wanted, others were set in their ways and content with their previous roles and job descriptions and did not want a new relationship with a stranger that encompassed change.....

Man management was key -the problem was that cohesion does not occur unless the whole team embrace their roles fifty percent of people doing what you want and the rest doing what they think is right doesn't work....

All or nothing, that's why if the ethos is right some teams dominate with limited quality,

N.

Both of these posts go some way to identifying what is wrong and what needs changing. They also put a lot of pressure on Holloway. But it really is up to him to get the necessary improvements. And to ensure stability we need to make sure we support him while he does this.

What strikes me as odd is that I always saw Holloway as exactly the sort of manager that WOULD motivate players and that if there was anything lacking it was more in a tactical sense. But so far some of his comments could easily be counter productive.

I'm hoping we're still in a period of adjustment where his methods are challenged and at time won't work. Maybe soon we'll see all of the hard work he has put in (and I do believe he has worked VERY hard since being here) start to pay off.

[SOCCERROO FOX]

Woke up this morning from the strangest dream

I was in the biggest army the world has ever seen

We were marching as one

On the road to the holy grail

Started out seeking fortune and glory

It's a short song but a hell of a story

When you spend lifetime trying to get your hands

On the holy grail

We'll have you heard about the great crusade

We ran into millions, but nobody got paid

Yeah we raised four corners of the globe

For the holy grail

All the locals scattered, they were hiding in the snow

We were so far home, so how were we to know

There be nothing left to plunder

When we stumble on the holy grail

We were full of beans

But we were dying like flies

And those big black birds, they were circling in the sky

And you know what they say, yeah, nobody deserves to die

You know I, I've been searching for an easy way

To escape the cold light of day

I've been high and I've been low

But I've nowhere else to go

There's nowhere else to go

And I've followed orders

God knows where I've been

But I woke up alone

All my wounds were clean

I'm still here

I'm still a fool for the holy grail

Oh yeah I'm a fool for the holy grail

[Trav Le Bleu]

I thought I'd seen the holy grail.

Turn's out it was just Mandaric's grail-shaped beacon

[l444ry]

The current players are far better than recent players we've had to endure but they still lack leadership on the field. This team needs a couple of players with character and genuine leadership qualities.

They need to be strong enough to organise proceedings during the games, especially when City haven't got the ball. They need to be strong enough to ignore the utter negative or naive garbage that the average fan spouts out during the game, and stick to the game plan. They need to have the character to give confidence to the rest of the team even when they are performing below par themselves.

Our senior players are only senior because they are older. Experience for experience sake. I have seen very little leadership from the likes of Kisnorbo, Clemence, Oakley or anybody else. These players are totally besotted with their own performances, or lack of.

Holloway needs a couple of players who are like he was as a player.

[Fez of Mahrez]

The current players are far better than recent players we've had to endure but they still lack leadership on the field. This team needs a couple of players with character and genuine leadership qualities.

They need to be strong enough to organise proceedings during the games, especially when City haven't got the ball. They need to be strong enough to ignore the utter negative or naive garbage that the average fan spouts out during the game, and stick to the game plan. They need to have the character to give confidence to the rest of the team even when they are performing below par themselves.

Our senior players are only senior because they are older. Experience for experience sake. I have seen very little leadership from the likes of Kisnorbo, Clemence, Oakley or anybody else. These players are totally besotted with their own performances, or lack of.

Holloway needs a couple of players who were like him as a player.

I'm not convinced. I think you're describing Barry Hayles. We've got enough potential leaders, what we don't have (judging by recent performances and most glaringly on Saturday) is a carefree attacking player or two with pace to change games. They don't have to be world beaters. Oakley and Howard might have done all this last season but they had the likes of Giles Barnes, Craig Fagan and Gary Teale alongside them to worry defences with pace and direct running. The latter two of those players in particular are nothing special to say the least but how many times has one of our midfielders committed a defender and taken him on with effect this season?

Teams know we haven't got much pace in the side and as long as they keep the play in front of their back four, we don't threaten - other than when DJ Campbell is on the pitch but I'm not convinced he has any sort of football brain at all. I've never seen a player slower to react to an incoming pass than him.

Now we can continue to pack our side with Clemences, Oakleys and Howards who have all the experience in the world - or we can trust in their ability to do their job and actually bring this "balance" that Holloway refers to constantly, by surrounding them with players who complement their attributes. Only then will we have a truly balanced side who can pose a threat in attack.

I get into a lot of arguments with Thracian over the likes of Sheehan and King but one thing he is absolutely bang on the money about is Gradel.

[l444ry]

I'm not convinced. I think you're describing Barry Hayles. We've got enough potential leaders, what we don't have (judging by recent performances and most glaringly on Saturday) is a carefree attacking player or two with pace to change games. They don't have to be world beaters. Oakley and Howard might have done all this last season but they had the likes of Giles Barnes, Craig Fagan and Gary Teale alongside them to worry defences with pace and direct running. The latter two of those players in particular are nothing special to say the least but how many times has one of our midfielders committed a defender and taken him on with effect this season?

Teams know we haven't got much pace in the side and as long as they keep the play in front of their back four, we don't threaten - other than when DJ Campbell is on the pitch but I'm not convinced he has any sort of football brain at all. I've never seen a player slower to react to an incoming pass than him.

Now we can continue to pack our side with Clemences, Oakleys and Howards who have all the experience in the world - or we can trust in their ability to do their job and actually bring this "balance" that Holloway refers to constantly, by surrounding them with players who complement their attributes. Only then will we have a truly balanced side who can pose a threat in attack.

I get into a lot of arguments with Thracian over the likes of Sheehan and King but one thing he is absolutely bang on the money about is Gradel.

Heaven forbid that I am suggesting Barry Hayles as a born leader!!! I must be suffering from the same complaint as the Archbishop of Canterbury if it came across that way.

But you have underlined my point .....potential leaders. At their age and level of experience there should be no potential left in them to tap.

[Fez of Mahrez]

Heaven forbid that I am suggesting Barry Hayles as a born leader!!! I must be suffering from the same complaint as the Archbishop of Canterbury if it came across that way.

But you have underlined my point .....potential leaders. At their age and level of experience there should be no potential left in them to tap.

Leadership isn't black and white though. In a performing team, suddenly people like Clemence, Oakley and Howard are hailed as leaders. Get the team functioning like a normal one does and they will come across as leaders.

I think it was the bit where you referred to character and the idea that Holloway needs people like himself on the pitch. It screamed Barry Hayles to me. That might not be your idea of what you mean but it's definitely how Holloway defines it.

[l444ry]

Leadership isn't black and white though. In a performing team, suddenly people like Clemence, Oakley and Howard are hailed as leaders. Get the team functioning like a normal one does and they will come across as leaders.

I think it was the bit where you referred to character and the idea that Holloway needs people like himself on the pitch. It screamed Barry Hayles to me. That might not be your idea of what you mean but it's definitely how Holloway defines it.

The type of leadership I mean IS certainly black or white. I'm talking about the likes of Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira, John Terry, Peter Reid, Dave Mackay, Tommy Smith etc. etc...............and like Steve Walsh. Players who demand authority and god help you if you ignore them.

[Fez of Mahrez]

The type of leadership I mean IS certainly black or white. I'm talking about the likes of Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira, John Terry, Peter Reid, Dave Mackay, Tommy Smith etc. etc...............and like Steve Walsh. Players who demand authority and god help you if you ignore them.

I agree we haven't got anyone like that but I think you have to possess a certain amount of quality or history to be able to do that. Players like Kisnorbo and McAuley can't get angry with team-mates cos half the time it's them making the mistakes. I've made this point many times before - that neither of them have ever achieved anything or even been part of a winning team above League Two level. I'm as sick of seeing them trudge back to the halfway line after another stupid goal has been conceded as you are. They've never known any different though.

As a long-term aim I couldn't agree with you more - but this current squad has seen off Martin Allen and is not playing for Holloway at the moment either. Player power seems to have ruled this place for years. Adding characters like you describe to the mix now would be the final nail in the coffin for me. Can you imagine another senior player coming in and barking orders to Clemence and Oakley? I can't.

One final point would be that players like Steve Walsh (and even the likes of Izzet to a certain extent) gained their authority from commitment to the club over a number of years. That's something that the lack of stability and continuity at the club has not afforded us.

Another thing I've just thought of (I'm not used to having to engage my brain this much to have to argue my point on here) is that leadership was probably the intention with players like N'Gotty, Clemence, Oakley and Howard - particularly the former three. When you sign a player of N'Gotty's pedigree or the promotion-winning captain of a Premier League team, you can reasonably expect them to be leaders as much as anyone can be in this division. Identifying them is easier said than done.

[marbelladave]

Plenty of posts taking the mick and a few more offering more detail on what is wrong but very few suggestion as to how to put it right.

So a few thoughts;

Stability. Assuming we keep Holloway we need a long term plan. For example the club holds a press conference and makes it 100% clear that Holloway will be in charge until the end of NEXT season. Furthermore set out what he is expected to achieve, ie stabilise the current situation and aim towards a mid table finish this season, then after some rebuilding in the summer a push for promotion next season. Mandaric and the board need to make it clear that they support the plan both in terms of vocal and financial support, and they need to give the fans an idea of what they can expect in terms of investment in the squad.

Balance. Currently our entire TEAM is very defensive. Our back 4 and centre midfielders play VERY deep, this has to change if we are to move forward. If the current players in these positions can't do it, get others in who can. Stop picking ATTACKING players in the wide positions, then giving them essentially DEFENSIVE roles, this is serious nonsense. Ending up with 8 defenders playing deep, 2 of them not that good defensively, leaves us with little option than tha long ball to the big men. This is not BALANCED play. If we do not have the players to play 4-4-2 than, as has been suggested elswhere try something different.

Spirit. Really wanting to play for the club is everything, if you are not professional enough to be able to fake it, then as before get them out and get in someone who can. If Clemence is not cutting it as a leader then drop him and give the responsibilty to someone else, Hume (for his spirit) for example.

Bear in mind that according to 'The Plan', we are looking to do little more than survive this season, so some rebuilding should be possible. A back 4 with 2 defensively sound central midfielders is enough defensively. We need 3 players in primarily attacking roles supporting a front man.

Shake it up and get players into their best roles, round pegs in round holes FFS.