Story without additional words

[Finnegan]

b) I really have no idea why anything of ours should be modelled on the US and certainly not the capital punishment system but I'm sure you'll explain.

Because they have a "working", "civilized" legal system that fully incorporates the death penalty?

Singapore greatly restricts freespeech and it's legal system is verging on (if not crossing) the lines of human rights violations. Clearly the UK isn't going to adopt any legal policy similar to theirs or to any Middle Eastern state that may have imposed capital punishment.

In the more-than-unlikely event of us ever taking steps backwards down the ladder of human barbarity it would no doubt be our "special" friends across that Atlantic we decided to mimic. I'm not really sure why this seems odd to you.

[BoneDog]

So what about miscarriages of justice? How do we resolve those when we have reinstated the death penalty?

I don't mean for every single case of killing. There could be a secure system put into place, I know it will never happen though due to the groups who run our country.

There are alot of cases of people getting caught in the act due to cctv or other reasons. I'm only saying I would agree with taking the life of a murderer if proven beyond any doubt. I agree there are very dodgy cases in the past and this is due to the authorities involved in the case being corrupt or in my opinion trying to get a case closed to cover other peoples tracks. It happens

[BoneDog]

the reason why it should never come back. ever.

Ok. If it never comes back I would like to see the system changed so that someone who does these crimes never walks our streets again. Why should they? I think we all agree on that.

P.S I'm not talking about people involved in road tragedies. Just 1st degree murderers. And I'm not talking about people who kill while defending themselves. Just certain cases of perverted individuals. If a person can be helped I agree in rehabilitation or whatever it's called.

[BoneDog]

Because they have a "working", "civilized" legal system that fully incorporates the death penalty?

Singapore greatly restricts freespeech and it's legal system is verging on (if not crossing) the lines of human rights violations. Clearly the UK isn't going to adopt any legal policy similar to theirs or to any Middle Eastern state that may have imposed capital punishment.

In the more-than-unlikely event of us ever taking steps backwards down the ladder of human barbarity it would no doubt be our "special" friends across that Atlantic we decided to mimic. I'm not really sure why this seems odd to you.

Does this mean that you think our leaders are more caring about the population than those leaders in Singapore etc? Or just that you think our leaders have to pretend to be more civilized?

[Finnegan]

Does this mean that you think our leaders are more caring about the population than those leaders in Singapore etc? Or just that you think our leaders have to pretend to be more civilized?

I'm going to go all out and say that capital punishment of any kind is barbaric, simple, backwards and medieval.

[Thracian]

Because they have a "working", "civilized" legal system that fully incorporates the death penalty?

Singapore greatly restricts freespeech and it's legal system is verging on (if not crossing) the lines of human rights violations. Clearly the UK isn't going to adopt any legal policy similar to theirs or to any Middle Eastern state that may have imposed capital punishment.

In the more-than-unlikely event of us ever taking steps backwards down the ladder of human barbarity it would no doubt be our "special" friends across that Atlantic we decided to mimic. I'm not really sure why this seems odd to you.

Because their system operates more like a guilt complex than an efficient legal process. So much so that it constantly puts off final decision making and in so doing becomes grossly inhumane.

And I see little about the American way of doing anything that I'd ever want us to mimic.

To move on, what you call barbarity others might call the best option. I'd be delighted to hear a humane option that would work.

As you know I am against state executions as such but then I am also against crime and against the human rights theorists who have helped to so weaken our legal system that criminals are able to make a mockery of it.

Take Abu Qatada as a contemporary example.

Al Qaeda have publicly declared their war on the western economies. Qatada's case has already cost a fortune and now he will take his case to the European court - meaning another two years or more will pass and further millions will be spent before the government is able (or not) to finally do what they see as best for our country.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/18/a...a-deport-jordan

Talk about an own goal. It beggars belief that we should so snooker ourselves but that is what adherence to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and being subordinate to the European court of Human Rights brings about.

Like many a university student you're a great one for causes but I never hear any solutions to problems, much less ones that may go some way towards being effective.

PS: As for free speech and Singapore why mention it? There is no respect for free speech under this government or among so many of its supporters, as various recent events have demonstrated.

[Thracian]

So what about miscarriages of justice? How do we resolve those when we have reinstated the death penalty?

We don't stop sending men into space and getting killed because there are sometimes mistakes.

But if you are saying there are modern judges who are incapable of properly presiding over a murder case and of directing the jury properly in cases of doubt or of failing to impose a sensible sentence based on the evidence, the particular crime committed and strength of the conviction then I'd be happy to see them gone and get some new ones.

Preferably people who have a greater regard for the victims of crime than some seem to show right now.

[BoneDog]

I'm going to go all out and say that capital punishment of any kind is barbaric, simple, backwards and medieval.

So if, for example, a 50 year old pervert kills 5 kids over a 10 year period and then gets caught by the law, would you still say that it would be barbaric to put that freak of nature to death? I'd say it would be a mercy to us all. There is the alternative we have now of course where we send him to prison at a great cost to us all and pamper to his needs. This has no benefit and just wastes time of people who could be working with more worth-while cases.

We've all heard of Ian Huntley sitting in his cell with his playstation, dvd's and other luxuries. I would love it if he was long gone. A person with a mind like his can never be rehabilitated. And there are plenty of these people.

I agree that some kinds of punishment are barbaric and medieval but I think certain cases deserve a harsh ending.

[DB11]

Do I really have to drag out the extreme-punishments-don't-act-as-a-crime-detterent statistics? I will, you know.

I did that in humanities coursework. He's right ya know!!

[Thracian]

I did that in humanities coursework. He's right ya know!!

Just for a start name anyone who has committed further murders after his death? Secondly shpw me how you know that no-one was deterred by any of the executions listed above.

Listing statistics is hypothetical in regards to deterence and most stats I've read mention nothing in relation to the increase in population year on year, the USA having the special problems of policing because of distances and potential murder because of the number of people who bear firearms.

The stats are simply picked up and highlighted by the anti-capital punishment lobby who seem careful not to mention places like Singapore whose strict regime has been so effective for such a long time.

As previously mentioned by another poster there are various factors needed for a crime and punishment strategy to act as a true deterrent.

[BoneDog]

I don't care if the extreme punishment acts as a deterrent or not. I think it would though. Maybe not to all, but to some. All I care about is that the pervert who did the crime gets stopped from hurting another innocent human being. As long as certain people get eliminated I don't mind if others don't take heed of the warning. Eventually they would get caught too.

[Guest]

We don't stop sending men into space and getting killed because there are sometimes mistakes.

But if you are saying there are modern judges who are incapable of properly presiding over a murder case and of directing the jury properly in cases of doubt or of failing to impose a sensible sentence based on the evidence, the particular crime committed and strength of the conviction then I'd be happy to see them gone and get some new ones.

Preferably people who have a greater regard for the victims of crime than some seem to show right now.

Ok, so in the past, there have been cases where it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that a person has committed a murder, despite the defendant's protestations. Later on, we have then been told that evidence has been tampered with, or that confessions extracted using questionable methods, or that the person in question was non compus mentis, or whatever. It turns out that they haven't committed any crime at all. This is nothing to do with judges or juries; the jury has only decided based on what has been put before them at the time of the trial.

Are you happy to live with a system that will kill one innocent person in however many, just to ensure that we eradicate all murderers from society?

I, personally, am not.

I don't care if the extreme punishment acts as a deterrent or not. I think it would though. Maybe not to all, but to some. All I care about is that the pervert who did the crime gets stopped from hurting another innocent human being. As long as certain people get eliminated I don't mind if others don't take heed of the warning. Eventually they would get caught too.

Do you know how many predatory perverts are actually out there? It's not that many.

Do you know how many murders take place in the UK each year?

Do you know which gender/age group/ethnic group/socio-economic group is more likely to be a victim of crime?

Do you know what sort of crimes these people are more likely to be victims of?

Do you know who is more likely to commit crime?

The media is responsible for putting a lot of fear into the minds of the general public, a lot of which is totally unfounded. I am more likely to be hit by a car, then I am of being a victim of a serial rapist/killer.

[Alexikokopops]

I don't mean for every single case of killing. There could be a secure system put into place, I know it will never happen though due to the groups who run our country.

There are alot of cases of people getting caught in the act due to cctv or other reasons. I'm only saying I would agree with taking the life of a murderer if proven beyond any doubt. I agree there are very dodgy cases in the past and this is due to the authorities involved in the case being corrupt or in my opinion trying to get a case closed to cover other peoples tracks. It happens

That's already meant to happen. The jury is only meant to vote guilty if there is no doubt.

[Finnegan]

I love how left-wing stats are all made up by anti-capitalist hippies and all right-wing stats are bang on factual evidence.

[Thracian]

Ok, so in the past, there have been cases where it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that a person has committed a murder, despite the defendant's protestations. Later on, we have then been told that evidence has been tampered with, or that confessions extracted using questionable methods, or that the person in question was non compus mentis, or whatever. It turns out that they haven't committed any crime at all. This is nothing to do with judges or juries; the jury has only decided based on what has been put before them at the time of the trial.

Are you happy to live with a system that will kill one innocent person in however many, just to ensure that we eradicate all murderers from society?

I, personally, am not.

Do you know how many predatory perverts are actually out there? It's not that many.

Do you know how many murders take place in the UK each year?

Do you know which gender/age group/ethnic group/socio-economic group is more likely to be a victim of crime?

Do you know what sort of crimes these people are more likely to be victims of?

Do you know who is more likely to commit crime?

The media is responsible for putting a lot of fear into the minds of the general public, a lot of which is totally unfounded. I am more likely to be hit by a car, then I am of being a victim of a serial rapist/killer.

Your own view only confirms to me that so many of today's so-called "thinkers" don't have the will and their leaders don't have the freedom (because those freedoms have been misguidedly and needlessly surrendered) to do what's necessary to administer an effective legal system that stops criminals laughing at the law and constantly abusing it.

And, while the government makes pretentious noises on occasions they are themselves so riddled with human rights supporters that there is no chance they will ever deliver on their hollow promises.

There will never be a perfect legal system and anyone who avoids tackling problems cos they are waiting for such a day is kidding themselves.

Flaws in the system should be addressed and attempts made to fix them just like a spluttering engine or a leaking pipe.

But the reality is that problems will always exist and that should not be an excuse for having our systems mocked by the criminal fraternity and our own will neutered by either the European court of the millstone that is the International Bill of Human Rights.

We live in a society that is full of excuses - excuses such as you make for the judges and juries, excuses for the system, excuses for the criminals, excuses about the jails being full and it is high time we stopped using excuses as an excuse for inaction and started making our country respected again as a place where decent people can live in safety.

Times you mention the media as some sort of bogey man but the media don't invent the hideous crimes we read about on a daily basis and which are not properly punished. The media don't invent paedophiles, murderers, people traffickers, drug pushers or sex slavers.

In fact from time to time the media draws attention to Government promises to deal with these issues only to find there is no real and lasting drive to ever do so although news today of three girls getting compensation for their ordeal as sex slaves was a rare but welcome step forward.

You talk about miscarriages of justice but our judges are experienced, highly qualified people, there is the option of appeal, we have laws to properly charge and punish people for contempt of court and tampering with evidence, there is a right of retrial in the light of new evidence and no right-thinking judge would not direct a jury to record a verdict of not guilty if there were serious doubts.

If that's really not good enough then improve it still further by all means but lets not make those minor blemishes be yet another excuse - an excuse to let the lowlifes of this world take the mickey out of our most fundamental laws and our society.

As for some of your questions:

PAEDOPHILES:

"In 2001, 289 offenders were convicted of offences under section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 as amended, which deals with taking, making, distribution, possession with intent to distribute, and advertising of indecent images, and 51 under S 160 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 which deals with possession.

However, recent high profile operations such as Operation Ore indicate a far higher level of activity. The police estimate that there are thousands of individuals in this country actively involved in the distribution of such images in the UK. Distribution can involve behaviour ranging from swapping of a few images between individuals to running a major commercial internet site."

That was only those that were caught and convicted of course. If you're happy with that then I'm certainly not. I'm no prude but I do believe children should be able to enjoy their childhood without becoming victims of anyone be it paedophiles, pimps, bullies, religious fanatics or drug-fueled parents.

MURDERS:

I couldn't find detailed overall figures but got this for London which is appalling enough and quite sufficient to show that people have good reason to be fearful, particularly in some areas of the country:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/158...er-details.html

[stez]

dear madam/sir,

sorry, your son/daughter was wrongly given the death sentence, turns out the DNA was wrong. but hey ho, it's just like a spluttering engine, we'll try to fix it and do better next time. you're son was killed by mistake, of course, but i'm sure you understand these things happen in an imperfect system.

your faithfully

a.n. civil servent

hmmm the message we'd all love to receive, were the death sentence to return

[Thracian]

hmmm the message we'd all love to receive, were the death sentence to return

No-one denies that but far more people are dying as a result of well established criminals being allowed to roam the street

than would ever die through through being falsely convicted in the English legal system.

[Thracian]

I love how left-wing stats are all made up by anti-capitalist hippies and all right-wing stats are bang on factual evidence.

I don't agree with any stats being doctored or withheld. Labour is the government in power and it is the socialists, communists and Marxists of the Labour party who have been spotlighted for seeking to manipulate or withhold information for philosophical and political reasons.

How convenient. Are you really so embedded in your ideology that you have to divert attention from the statistics by somehow claiming a foul?

[stez]

No-one denies that but far more people are dying as a result of well established criminals being allowed to roam the street

than would ever die through through being falsely convicted in the English legal system.

that would certainly be comfort to me.

[BoneDog]

Do you know how many predatory perverts are actually out there? It's not that many.

Do you know how nany murders take place in the UK each year?

Don't care how few predatory pervs are out there. Kill em all

At least 1 murder every day in UK. At least. Some of em I agree don't deserve the perpetrator being hung. Some I think do

[Edmund]

At least 1 murder every day in UK. At least. Some of em I agree don't deserve the perpetrator being hung. Some I think do

Is that a fact? Secondly look at america they have the death penalty in some states yet it still doesn't act as a deterrent. I know it's a bigger population and guns are legal but still you would have thought people would be put off from killing someone if there own life is at risk.

[Zingari]

it never ceases to amaze me that many of the anti hanging folk , still applaud ( or at least couldn't give a fook about ) vicious beatings/killings of criminals convicted of murder/rape etc by other criminals

the same argument that innocent people could be hung applies to criminals who are beaten to death or maimed by other criminals

[stez]

it never ceases to amaze me that many of the anti hanging folk , still applaud ( or at least couldn't give a fook about ) vicious beatings/killings of criminals convicted of murder/rape etc by other criminals

the same argument that innocent people could be hung applies to criminals who are beaten to death or maimed by other criminals

because criminals are on such a higher level of morality, and are also very very clever people able to figure out the complexities of life.

luckily, i'm in the minority there too.

[BoneDog]

Is that a fact? Secondly look at america they have the death penalty in some states yet it still doesn't act as a deterrent. I know it's a bigger population and guns are legal but still you would have thought people would be put off from killing someone if there own life is at risk.

Have a look in your newspaper every day. There are always a few little pieces about murders or attempted murders.

As for Americas death penalty not really working as a deterrent I said earlier that this is because most people on death row go to prison for up to 25 first. Sometimes they don't have the death penalty implemented for decades. If you look at Saudi where a murderer gets executed immediatley there murder rate is minimal. Even smaller than ours. And this is not because they have less nutters. They have just as many nutters as anywhere else. Not that I like the Saudi regime.