Message understood?

[Thracian]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090404/tuk-b...ve-6323e80.html

Apparently boring news story that tells us so much.

I wonder what questions it will provoke because it provokes very many to me and some of them hugely far reaching.

The story also shows that the DCLG don't understand Muslim philosophy at all.

Still in the dark? Let me help.

Take this statement:

'The declaration at the heart of the row reportedly said: "The obligation of the Islamic Nation (is) to regard the sending of foreign warships into Muslim waters, claiming to control the borders and prevent the smuggling of arms to Gaza, as a declaration of war, a new occupation, sinful aggression.

"This must be rejected and fought by all means and ways.",

a) This firstly refers to the "Islamic Nation" as being of one entity (rather than various nations) stressing the reality that Islam does not consider itself governed by any national government that chooses to administrate by anything other than Islamic law. The implications are obvious to all who are prepared to understand.

b) Does the statement, carried to its logical conclusion, also accept that anyone sending warriors to smuggle arms or hateful words into a Christian country or to occupy it in any way, is, similarly, a declaration of War?

If no, then the statement as written is hypocritical (but entirely justifiable in Muslim philosophy). If yes then it acknowledges that the Islamic Nation is - as they've said on many occasions - at the very least waging a spritual war on non Muslim countries be it by recourse to arms or by more stealthy, political or strategic means

No devout Muslim would accept that the statement is hypocritcal because they would consider it their duty to impress the Islamic doctrine on supposedly heathen communities.

And hypocrisy doesn't come into it because nothing that furthers the cause of Islam is considered sinful.

Muslims are at liberty to follow a means of hiding their aims called Al-Tokiya. Basically that means that they can hide their contempt or even hatred but still pretend to be friends. They can behave in a manner that pleases people or is acceptable to governments even when it is against their beliefs - providing it advances the cause of Islam. Anyone who fails to understand this is blindly ignoring the truth.

At the very least this action will do two things. It will cost the government money - and anything, however small, which drains the western (heathen) economies is a plus. Also it will make the government even more wary of offending the Muslims who would, of course, never dream of bulllying or seeking to push anyone around for their own ends.

I don't make these comments as a matter of judgement. In many ways I admire Muslim philosophies (and even follow some of them) because they are much stronger and more effective than our increasingly faithless, weak-willed and much watered-down basically Christian values and our constant willingness to compromise what conviction we have left in what is right and wrong.

For me the values of Great Britain (or at least of England) need to be even stronger than Islamic values and more just.

But to have any chance of setting and advancing those standards we need to be prepared to defend our land and our freedoms against all who would choose to destroy them.

And no-one gives greater example and instruction on how to do that than the Muslims. I have said many times that Osama Bin Laden is the greatest single warrior who ever lived. The bloke is truly immense and, for all his ruthlessness, his vision is that of a strategic genius.

His soldiers may have only modest weapons at times. But their real strength is their faith, their conviction and their steadfast refusal to compromise or to be deflected from their goals.

And when I hear western people talking about debating issues and compromising with people of Islamic faith it just shows how little they understand the mindset of Islamic believers. No wonder they have so little respect for us and our country.

Like I said the other day. We need a leader in this land. And so does Europe.

We need a new force for unity, whether it be a genuine nationalist movement or a Values Party which not only sets proper standards without compromise but which also shows itself prepared to defend the land against those who would devalue its principals.

Principals that encompass fairness for all, honesty, transparency, selflessnesss, decency and a justice system which people understand, respect and which has the strength to support those values properly, consistently and wisely but with the principals of our existence firmly and first in mind.

Because those who have no faith in anything will eventually be swamped or subjected.

[Zingari]

i'm just reading "end of faith " by sam harris ( brilliant read ), and he is very pessimistic about the prospects of the west and islamic world ever being reconciled

[Thracian]

i'm just reading "end of faith " by sam harris ( brilliant read ), and he is very pessimistic about the prospects of the west and islamic world ever being reconciled

Is that on general sale or do you have to order it?

[Zingari]

Is that on general sale or do you have to order it?

end of faith, by sam harris , is available from amazon for just over a fiver ; free postage , excellent value for money

[skinnydipper]

end of faith, by sam harris , is available from amazon for just over a fiver ; free postage , excellent value for money

You should read The Looming Tower Al Qaeda's Road To 9/11 by Lawrence Wright

Winner of the 2007 Pullitzer Prize for non fiction and a great read

[Zingari]

You should read The Looming Tower Al Qaeda's Road To 9/11 by Lawrence Wright

Winner of the 2007 Pullitzer Prize for non fiction and a great read

i'll make a note of it , thanks

edit; just ordered a copy from amazon for a credit crunch busting £6:99 inc free postage , so it should be winging it's way to me in the next few days

[Thracian]

Islam and Terrorism by Mark A Gabriel PHD, former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azbar University in Cairo, is probably the most disturbing book you could ever read.

It should be compulsory reading for every member of the government. And for every aspiring politician who has the interests of this nation at heart. Can't see much point in the human rightists reading it because it would mean them taking their heads out of the sand but you never know.

[Vacamion]

end of faith, by sam harris , is available from amazon for just over a fiver ; free postage , excellent value for money

Although he gives the idea of "Islam is a religion of peace" a good shoeing, Mr Harris does this in the context of christian/jewish/islamic religions being dangerous irrational fairy stories based on the scared-of-the-dark superstitions of a few thousand Bronze Age desert dwellers.

He does like meditation, though...

[Guest]

Islam and Terrorism by Mark A Gabriel PHD, former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azbar University in Cairo, is probably the most disturbing book you could ever read.

It should be compulsory reading for every member of the government. And for every aspiring politician who has the interests of this nation at heart. Can't see much point in the human rightists reading it because it would mean them taking their heads out of the sand but you never know.

Ha ha ha, it really is that simple........

[Thracian]

Ha ha ha, it really is that simple........

How simple is that? Have you read the book?

[Guest]

How simple is that? Have you read the book?

No, I haven't. It's your assumptions that make me laugh.

[Thracian]

No, I haven't. It's your assumptions that make me laugh.

Can't say I'm surprised but please enlighten me. As far as I'm aware I've made no assumptions.

[Guest]

Can't say I'm surprised but please enlighten me. As far as I'm aware I've made no assumptions.

Can't see much point in the human rightists reading it because it would mean them taking their heads out of the sand

[Thracian]

Just because I doubt it will happen doesn't mean it can't or that it wouldn't be refreshing for them to clear some sand from their eyes.

[Guest]

Just because I doubt it will happen doesn't mean it can't or that it wouldn't be refreshing for them to clear some sand from their eyes.

It's the assumption that human rights means that you have your head in the sand that gets me. It shows a total ignorance and disregard of how human rights works. What you are doing is confusing human rights with liberalism half the time, in any case.

[Thracian]

It's the assumption that human rights means that you have your head in the sand that gets me. It shows a total ignorance and disregard of how human rights works. What you are doing is confusing human rights with liberalism half the time, in any case.

Are you saying the two don't overlap?

[Guest]

Are you saying the two don't overlap?

No, but you seem to think that they are one and the same thing, when they are not.

[Zingari]

does anyone else remember sandie shaw singing this song ? well ,it was before shoes were invented

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0FXKTGKIBk...feature=related

[Nath]

[Guest Mickyblueeyes]

Islam and Terrorism by Mark A Gabriel PHD, former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azbar University in Cairo, is probably the most disturbing book you could ever read.

It should be compulsory reading for every member of the government. And for every aspiring politician who has the interests of this nation at heart. Can't see much point in the human rightists reading it because it would mean them taking their heads out of the sand but you never know.

Have you done your research on this man???

I'd be seriously scared if our Government officials chose to adopt teachings of this guy.

[Thracian]

No, but you seem to think that they are one and the same thing, when they are not.

I don't actually think that but do tend to be lazy in bothering to differentiate.

Too often it seems to me that those who campaign on behalf of human rights are also liberal minded people, as the definition of the word liberal would also seem to indicate (although "liberal" really is a far-reaching word with many handles and even the definition is open to question, but, please, let's not go there .

And all this seems to come across as if I'm anti-human rights and anything but liberal which is actually not the case (though you might disagree).

What I am against is legislation and attititudes which back this country into a corner against its own interests and against the welfare of its indigenous people and, indeed, a good many of its other residents.

Yes, that does mean some rather un-liberal decision making but I don't expect any philosophy to be perfect and I certainly don't like to see this country shafted by anyone nor to see the engine of its workforce seize through neglect, mistratment and the lack of care and maintenance.

[BoneDog]

And hypocrisy doesn't come into it because nothing that furthers the cause of Islam is considered sinful.

Muslims are at liberty to follow a means of hiding their aims called Al-Tokiya. Basically that means that they can hide their contempt or even hatred but still pretend to be friends. They can behave in a manner that pleases people or is acceptable to governments even when it is against their beliefs - providing it advances the cause of Islam. Anyone who fails to understand this is blindly ignoring the truth.

Are these your words or the words of the report?

Either way they are complete bollocks! Never heard so much shit in all my life.

Anyone who wants to criticize Muslims all the time should really read the Koran so they know what they are talking about. Cos most the time people just use examples that are made up or wrong. Let's not forget there are 'real' Muslims and 'fake' muslims.

[BoneDog]

Do some people really believe al qaeda did 911? HA. Hilarious

[BoneDog]

Have you done your research on this man???

I'd be seriously scared if our Government officials chose to adopt teachings of this guy.

Hooray, I didn't think there were any sane people left

[Daggers]

Do some people really believe al qaeda did 911? HA. Hilarious

Why?

What does Youtoob say?