Welsh Assembly referendum

[Bob Weasel Fox]

not sure what (if any) my ramblings mean in the context of this thead however my 2 penneth worth - I am English but i am British and if i was to choose i prefer being British as although i was born in Leicestershire in 1970 my family going back only a couple or three generations or so is from England (Mainly Yorkshire and Cheshire), Scotland, Wales and Ireland so although i am proud to be English i am actually prouder to be British

[unreachable]

One positive aspect for England will be to see how devolved matters such as health and education fare in Wales. It allows the Welsh unbeknowingly to be treated like laboratory rats for possible reforms in England.

[Finnegan]

I'm pretty sure English people have always been patriotic to an extent, "Britain" and "England" are synonymous and always have been, there's nothing really wrong with that, it's to be expected given that you were the dominant force of the Empire and in to more recent history. It's also to be expected that Scots and Welsh pride would take a more feverent form given it was us that had our culture and language suppressed and not the other way around.

The decline of the Union Jack, I think, has been, in many ways, a reaction to people being put off by it being adopted by nationalist groups like the BNP just as much as anything; and that's a shame. I don't really think movements like the EDL are a true sign of the English people being vastly more self aware or less apathetic.

At the end of the day, there's a massive difference between wanting the freedom to make your own laws and wanting complete separation from the Union.

[Zingari]

I must admit that i'm not really up to speed about the whole issue , but what sort of laws can the assembly now make ?

If you live near the border can you do something in England and then run over the road into Wales where they can't touch you for it , and vice versa ?

It would be quite fun blowing raspberries across the road at the old bill

[Finnegan]

I must admit that i'm not really up to speed about the whole issue , but what sort of laws can the assembly now make ?

If you live near the border can you do something in England and then run over the road into Wales where they can't touch you for it , and vice versa ?

It would be quite fun blowing raspberries across the road at the old bill

no.

[Guest Bilo]

The EDL definitely aren't about promoting 'Englishness' whichever way they slice it., if they were true representatives of all things English I'd be looking for jobs in Cardiff or Edinburgh.

I just feel that calls for an English Parliament and celebrations of English as opposed to British culture have grown significantly since devolution, and part of the reason for this is the unfair deal England has got from devolution as a whole. The problem with English nationalism is that it has traditionally, justifiably to an extent, been associated with the far-right. I'm not sure the CEP and EDP can necessarily be saddled with these accusations in all honesty, though the English devolution movement is still in its infancy. Of course the English culture has always been the dominant culture thanks to suppression of the Celtic cultures, but that doesn't stand true now with Scottish and Welsh cultures being actively promoted. It's little surprise that with this situation of England being surrounded by countries celebrating their cultures and reaping the benefits of devolution that many English people now fancy a similar situation here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for England to be the first country to break away from the union or anything, just that we should enjoy the same political representation as Scotland and Wales. Would I vote for an English version of Plaid or the SNP? Quite possibly and I'd be surprised if I were the only one.

[Finnegan]

... in what way is Westminster not representative of England? There are vastly more English MPs than Welsh or Scottish, they clearly hold all the power.

Tryweryn is the classic example of a demonstration of Welsh MPs holding no real power to dictate Welsh affairs in Westminster, when all but one Welsh MP voted against the motion to flood Capel Celyn but it happened anyway.

Where are examples of this happening for the English? Give over. The English are perfectly well politically represented.

[Webbo]

Tryweryn is the classic example of a demonstration of Welsh MPs holding no real power to dictate Welsh affairs in Westminster, when all but one Welsh MP voted against the motion to flood Capel Celyn but it happened anyway.

That's a load of nonsense, Liverpool (and parts of North Wales) needed a reservoir and that place was geographically the best place to put it. Nothing anti Welsh about it. Liverpool is a big city and some of the taxes paid there are spent in Wales.

It's not like it's never happened in England, the village of Normanton was flooded to make Rutland water.

[Guest Bilo]

... in what way is Westminster not representative of England? There are vastly more English MPs than Welsh or Scottish, they clearly hold all the power.

Tryweryn is the classic example of a demonstration of Welsh MPs holding no real power to dictate Welsh affairs in Westminster, when all but one Welsh MP voted against the motion to flood Capel Celyn but it happened anyway.

Where are examples of this happening for the English? Give over. The English are perfectly well politically represented.

But Welsh and Scottish MPs can vote on issues that affect solely England though not the other way around. The majority of MPs may be English, but when around 80% of the UK's population lives in England that's be to expected.

[Finnegan]

That's a load of nonsense, Liverpool (and parts of North Wales) needed a reservoir and that place was geographically the best place to put it. Nothing anti Welsh about it. Liverpool is a big city and some of the taxes paid there are spent in Wales.

It's not like it's never happened in England, the village of Normanton was flooded to make Rutland water.

Geographically the best place for it does't make it the best place overall. The fact that thirty five Welsh MPs voted against the move suggests it meant something. The fact that it sparked enough nationalist sentiment to see Mudiad Amddiffyn Cymru launch a bombing campaign that targeted numerous water lines and public offices in Cardiff suggest that it meant something. The fact it's still remember today and still causes nationalist resentment suggests that it meant and still means something.

The fact that in 2005 Liverpool City Council finally issued a public apology for the flooding suggests that it meant something.

And regardless of whether or not some ignorant, English, Tory wind-up-merchant thinks it was the best thing to do at the time, it clearly was not a move that was welcomed by the elected members of parliament for Wales or their constituents and, thus, is a perfect example of what people want increased power of self governance for.

[Webbo]

Geographically the best place for it does't make it the best place overall. The fact that thirty five Welsh MPs voted against the move suggests it meant something. The fact that it sparked enough nationalist sentiment to see Mudiad Amddiffyn Cymru launch a bombing campaign that targeted numerous water lines and public offices in Cardiff suggest that it meant something. The fact it's still remember today and still causes nationalist resentment suggests that it meant and still means something.

The fact that in 2005 Liverpool City Council finally issued a public apology for the flooding suggests that it meant something.

And regardless of whether or not some ignorant, English, Tory wind-up-merchant thinks it was the best thing to do at the time, it clearly was not a move that was welcomed by the elected members of parliament for Wales or their constituents and, thus, is a perfect example of what people want increased power of self governance for.

I'm not big on nationalism, just because some rabble rousers can drum up some self pity and indignation doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.

67 people had to move, presumably they were compensated. The reservoir has probably created more jobs than that and hundreds of thousands of people get a water supply.

[Finnegan]

I'm not big on nationalism, just because some rabble rousers can drum up some self pity and indignation doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.

67 people had to move, presumably they were compensated. The reservoir has probably created more jobs than that and hundreds of thousands of people get a water supply.

We get it, you don't sympathize - and I don't care.

Your sympathy (or not) is irrelevant to the fundamental point. The people of Wales did not want it, the people of Wales voted against it, it happened anyway. Ergo the desire to dictate their own affairs.

Not really sure you've any grounds to argue? My point is that Westminster is never really going to "slight" England as a whole in the same way and will, thus, never really stir up any powerful need in the English public to settle their affairs without a few Welsh or Scottish MPs having their say.

[Zingari]

Blimey that's nearly ancient history

Surely in the last 50 years or so , the government have decided to put reservoirs , roads , nuclear power stations , and other public works etc etc in parts of England that were opposed by local MPs and residents , but effectively got railroaded through anyway.

You can't really believe that the Welsh have been singled out as the only community that has had it's wishes ignored by Westminster

[Finnegan]

Blimey that's nearly ancient history

Surely in the last 50 years or so , the government have decided to put reservoirs , roads , nuclear power stations , and other public works etc etc in parts of England that were opposed by local MPs and residents , but effectively got railroaded through anyway.

You can't really believe that the Welsh have been singled out as the only community that has had it's wishes ignored by Westminster

I'm not saying Capel Celyn is the core of all Welsh separatist sentiment, it was purely an example. I would have thought that much was obvious.

[Zingari]

I'm not saying Capel Celyn is the core of all Welsh separatist sentiment, it was purely an example. I would have thought that much was obvious.

Well in the interest of fairness , try to think of some examples of Westminster ignoring and railroading the English into accepting things that they don't want .

It shouldn't be hard if you have the will, to see that our government are just as callous towards the English as they are the Welsh .

You're not a special case in the application , just in the post operative apologies

I do see why you feel more aggrieved about English government because you have the luxury of the hate figure , but for the English there is none but our own government and that's not so satisfying as blaming the foreigners

[Finnegan]

Whether or not the English have ever felt ill served by their government is irrelevant.

The Welsh clearly feel a strong collective identity and clearly feel that the interests of that identity aren't best served by a government in London, dominated by English members of parliament. Otherwise they'd not have voted in favour of the Assembly and voted again in favour of the Assembly gaining greater power and control.

Little bit confused about what you're arguing for.

[Zingari]

Whether or not the English have ever felt ill served by their government is irrelevant.

The Welsh clearly feel a strong collective identity and clearly feel that the interests of that identity aren't best served by a government in London, dominated by English members of parliament. Otherwise they'd not have voted in favour of the Assembly and voted again in favour of the Assembly gaining greater power and control.

Little bit confused about what you're arguing for.

Basically , for the Welsh to stop being so fookin self pitying

[Finnegan]

Basically , for the Welsh to stop being so fookin self pitying

I don't think they're being self pitying, that would be to just sit around and moan. They've taken their interests in to their own hands, campaigned for referendum, gotten it, voted on it and seen it put through.

[Zingari]

I don't think they're being self pitying, that would be to just sit around and moan. They've taken their interests in to their own hands, campaigned for referendum, gotten it, voted on it and seen it put through.

it wasn't meant seriously , fair play to the Welsh if they can get a better deal out of it