Welsh Assembly referendum

[Fosse Boy]

Polls have opened as voters in Wales decide in a referendum if the Welsh assembly should have direct law-making powers.

At present the assembly can pass legislation in 20 devolved policy areas, including health and education.

A Yes vote would mean it no longer needs to apply to parliament for law-making powers on a case-by-case basis.

Voting is until 2200 GMT. The count starts on Friday morning, with a final result likely in the afternoon.

A No vote would keep the existing system, while a Yes would mean the assembly can pass laws without first seeking consent in Westminster.

However, if there was a Yes the assembly would not gain powers over new areas.

The referendum was a key part of the coalition deal struck by Labour and Plaid Cymru after the last assembly election in 2007.

An Electoral Commission booklet on the referendum has been distributed as part of the watchdog's duty to inform the public.

Results from the 22 local authorities will be collated at a central count at the assembly's Senedd building, in Cardiff Bay, from Friday morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12627254

Any thoughts on this?

[Guest Bilo]

Wouldn't this give the Welsh Assembly the same powers as the Scottish Parliament?

If it's a similar situation, it won't lead to a great deal for English taxpayers that's for sure. The English tax burden will rise to pay for Welsh autonomy as it did for Scottish autonomy with few benefits. Longer term, I do think it's inevitable that the United Kingdom will break up into independent states, though this almost certainly won't be for some years yet.

[broughtonblue]

Wouldn't this give the Welsh Assembly the same powers as the Scottish Parliament?

If it's a similar situation, it won't lead to a great deal for English taxpayers that's for sure. The English tax burden will rise to pay for Welsh autonomy as it did for Scottish autonomy with few benefits. Longer term, I do think it's inevitable that the United Kingdom will break up into independent states, though this almost certainly won't be for some years yet.

The sooner the better

[Finnegan]

Of course it isn't inevitable that the United Kingdom will break up into separate states, that's a child's fantasy. How are Wales and Scotland REALLY going to stand alone?

I may have gone through a rampant, patriotic, separatist stage as a younger guy but it's realistically a nationalist's pipe dream. Won't happen and, to be honest, the Welsh don't want it to happen. Groups like MAC and the FWA, or Meibion Glyndwr more recently, might like to pretend they're speaking for the majority - and on a sentimental level they probably are - but politically Welsh people are not naive nor foolhardy, even during the height of the miner's strikes and the last Tory government I imagine a referendum for total independence would have failed.

The current government might have pissed a lot of people off and a lot of people will back the Yes For Wales vote, but if it was complete independence on the table it wouldn't get off the ground - not even in the heartland of Y Fro Gymraeg.

[Webbo]

As long as it doesn't cost me anything I couldn't care less.

[broughtonblue]

Of course it isn't inevitable that the United Kingdom will break up into separate states, that's a child's fantasy. How are Wales and Scotland REALLY going to stand alone?

I may have gone through a rampant, patriotic, separatist stage as a younger guy but it's realistically a nationalist's pipe dream. Won't happen and, to be honest, the Welsh don't want it to happen. Groups like MAC and the FWA, or Meibion Glyndwr more recently, might like to pretend they're speaking for the majority - and on a sentimental level they probably are - but politically Welsh people are not naive nor foolhardy, even during the height of the miner's strikes and the last Tory government I imagine a referendum for total independence would have failed.

The current government might have pissed a lot of people off and a lot of people will back the Yes For Wales vote, but if it was complete independence on the table it wouldn't get off the ground - not even in the heartland of Y Fro Gymraeg.

Is that because they like the English or they want our money?

[Guest Bilo]

Of course it isn't inevitable that the United Kingdom will break up into separate states, that's a child's fantasy. How are Wales and Scotland REALLY going to stand alone?

I may have gone through a rampant, patriotic, separatist stage as a younger guy but it's realistically a nationalist's pipe dream. Won't happen and, to be honest, the Welsh don't want it to happen. Groups like MAC and the FWA, or Meibion Glyndwr more recently, might like to pretend they're speaking for the majority - and on a sentimental level they probably are - but politically Welsh people are not naive nor foolhardy, even during the height of the miner's strikes and the last Tory government I imagine a referendum for total independence would have failed.

The current government might have pissed a lot of people off and a lot of people will back the Yes For Wales vote, but if it was complete independence on the table it wouldn't get off the ground - not even in the heartland of Y Fro Gymraeg.

Scotland would be the more viable state but an emboldened Wales may, in some years to come admittedly, make moves towards independence. I'd fully expect an independent England, Wales and Scotland to be very closely tied but as a unified nation I'm not so sure it still will be in 50 years or so. Once the moves towards autonomy have been made and the influence of Westminster wanes more and more, the UK as an entity is likely to become less relevant. Obviously at this point in time it's a ridiculous pipe dream, for Wales and Scotland, but in the time of our children or grandchildren I wouldn't rule it out at all.

[Finnegan]

Why would we want that? What merit is there in an independent Scotland or Wales? Like I said, they're nice pipe dreams but a lot more Welsh and Scottish people than you think are actually fairly proud of their place in Great Britain. Particularly the Scots, I think we're a bit more indifferent in Wales but then we were nothing like an equal power at any point in history.

The Welsh people had a distinct identity pre-Britain, yes, but there were only ever very fleeting attempts to unify the separate kingdoms and make a combined nation before Longshanks.

In an ideal world I would love Wales to be some strong, independent free state left with it's leftist majority able to happily establish a healthy, social democracy. But it's hardly something we need and definitely not something we could sustain; anyone who thinks that complete devolution is an intelligent idea now, in the context of the collapse of the Celtic Tiger is an even bigger muppet than they were to think it a few years ago.

Trust me, it isn't happening. And for all of the Scots blow-hards it's not happening up there, either.

The modern world should be, and probably will be, about knocking down borders not putting them up. There'll be a unified Europe long before there's a split United Kingdom.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

My three least favourite words in one thread title.

Shitty assemblies.

[Finnegan]

My three least favourite words in one thread title.

Shitty assemblies.

I love you too, man.

[Dr The Singh]

So when are we brits going down to wales to murder, rape and pillage the welsh, oh come on, they are being anti national and hence are fundamentalist and terrorists. Then were should destroy all monuments and history of the welsh, and the media will be controlled by the brits, and no foriegn nationals or humanitarian groups will be allowed. Then we should make the official language english and re write there history. All we need now is to sponsor a stooge for all this to happen.

[Finnegan]

Pft, we ARE the true Brits.

Ya'll hun can go home.

[Uncle Monty]

As an Englishman living in Wales I voted for the referendum. The way I see it is: why have a Welsh assembly but not let it make the decisions? I understand that Wales has a small population but it is better represented in Cardiff than in London in my humble (perhaps not so) opinion.

[Zingari]

are they fook

i'm truly british

i can trace my british ancestry right back to the 2nd world war

[Finnegan]

As an Englishman living in Wales I voted for the referendum. The way I see it is: why have a Welsh assembly but not let it make the decisions? I understand that Wales has a small population but it is better represented in Cardiff than in London in my humble (perhaps not so) opinion.

[Uncle Monty]

I read that only 30% of people voted though - not good!

[Finnegan]

I read that only 30% of people voted though - not good!

It'll go through, though, "True Wales" have basically thrown the towel in already.

Yes: Correction, it HAS gone through. Results out.

[davieG]

I think the probability of independence depends to large extent on the every growing influence of the European Parliament and the ever shrinking influence of Westminster. There may well come a time when Westminster becomes so ineffectual in national matters that independence within a totally controlling Europe could be workable.

[Finnegan]

I think the probability of independence depends to large extent on the every growing influence of the European Parliament and the ever shrinking influence of Westminster. There may well come a time when Westminster becomes so ineffectual in national matters that independence within a totally controlling Europe could be workable.

But then you're just swapping being a partially antonymous state of the United Kingdom for being a partially antonymous state of the European Union, that's not really full independence is it?

[FoxyPV]

Give them full independance and in 10 minutes and they'll have blown their budget on leeks, taffy and singing competitions

[Finnegan]

Give it 10 minutes and they'll have blown their budget on leeks, taffy and singing competitions

Swap taffy for rugby balls and ale and you're probably about right, we aren't Americans.

[FoxyPV]

Swap taffy for rugby balls and ale and you're probably about right, we aren't Americans.

Stupid as them though

[davieG]

But then you're just swapping being a partially antonymous state of the United Kingdom for being a partially antonymous state of the European Union, that's not really full independence is it?

Agree but it would be as independent as anyone else by then and surely better then being under a toothless British Government.

[Finnegan]

Stupid as them though

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Guest Bilo]

Have to agree with davieG that Westminster is becoming less and less relevant as devolution gathers pace.

One thing I've also noticed is that we English are becoming slowly more nationalistic in the sense of self-identifying as English rather than British, something that has been prevalent in Wales and Scotland for years. This has been a relatively recent phenomenon, if you look at football crowds for example you are now more likely to see a club's name in the middle of a Cross of St. George than a Union Flag whereas only around 20 years ago it would have been the other way around. I believe this reflects a real shift in attitudes towards nationality and patriotism. Whether this means that England will end up with genuine, non-racist political alternatives to the traditional parties in the mould of Plaid Cymru and the SNP in the long term remains to be seen. I'm not quite sure the English Democrats are that but I wouldn't be surprised to see such a party emerge in the future.

At the very least though I advocate the foundation of an English Parliament as devolution has created levels of disparity between levels of public services, education and health with England usually getting the raw deal. There is little doubt that the will for an exclusively English Parliament is growing here and how long it can be ignored by the political elite is a major question, what such a move would do to the Union is quite another.