Money, Money, Money...

[Captain...]

If people aren't working how do you pay for this leisure time?

Do you think you'd be happy with a 10 year old mobile phone or TV? A five year old computer?

My 7 year old TV is still perfectly adequate, not got in built digital or 3d, but it has a decent picture, my old laptop lasted me 6 years and I would still be using it now if it worked like it did on day one, but it slowly died, mobile phones are relatively new technology and will continue to develop as software develops and technology develops, likewise with the computer, so while we create software that needs a better processor, we will need to create better processors.

It is not really computers and mobiles where this is the problem, innovation will mean that we will want to replace them with better, the problem is things like washing machines, cookers, fridges and freezers, there have been very few major design changes over the years, and yet we still have to replace these things as they break or stop performing as efficiently, and this is being built into the design. I taught English at a Spanish company that made big freezer units, and they told me that they were on the verge of going bust as they had no repeat custom, their units lasted too long so never needed to be replaced, they had actually changed the designs to ensure that their new units wouldn't last as long.

[MooseBreath]

What technology is that? and why not build it now instead of becoming even more heavily indebted to oil rich nations? Or when you say we do you mean some other country will, and we can be indebted to them too?

Greed does not equal capitalism, this is not an anti-capitalist stance, true capitalism isn't about greed it is about growth, it is greed that I'm talking about, greed, not natural fluctuations in economy and markets, that has dropped us in the shit with this global crisis.

Solar - more expensive than oil currently, but the technology is ready

Gas fracking - getting huge in America, will no doubt take off here soon too once the need for it is louder than the the pesky environmentalists

Wind - technology is ready, "environmentalists" slowing this one down too because they are selfish twats.

Nuclear - massive new nuclear power station was given the go ahead in the last few days

Natural gas - at least one new gas power plant has been built in the UK recently

Tidal - technology already in place to gain huge amounts of energy from the tides, a monster barrage over the river severn is planned but yet again the "environmentalists" are desperate for this clean, renewable energy source to be banned because it might kill a toad

I'm sure there's more besides.

[MooseBreath]

Why not implement the oil-replacing technology now, if it is more efficient and cleaner than what we have already?

And which countries are on the verge of monumental improvements in living standards due to capitalism at the present time? Would be nice to have an example or two.

See previous post.

Pretty much the whole continent of Asia, the majority of south america, Australia, New Zealand, large parts of Africa. Pretty much everywhere apart from Europe

[MooseBreath]

Essentially that would have been where communism would have headed, state controlled production of all consumer goods, ensure they are the best quality and will last a lifetime, function over form, and that they will be available to all, and all will work to have these things. Unfortunately communism was generally adopted by poor countries, often involved in wars and were unable to really produce anything of any quality, other than missiles.

You wouldn't have any decent consumer goods because no-one would have any incentive to invent them

I cant believe you still haven't moved on from these communism ideas. How can you not see that society as it exists today is a direct product of capitalism, you can't just place communism on top of capitalisms achievements and say "woo, look how much better this fits". Without capitalism none of this exists. Without greed and a desire for more we're still apes, and probably not even as advanced as that.

[leicsmac]

See previous post.

Pretty much the whole continent of Asia, the majority of south america, Australia, New Zealand, large parts of Africa. Pretty much everywhere apart from Europe

For most of the countries you state there, I wouldn't count economies that rely on slave labour to produce cheap exports for multinationals as having a monumental increase in living standards. China of course being the worst offender due to a combination of totalitarian government and a vast population from which to draw workers.

Japan, South Korea, Oz and NZ of course being the exceptions - but they are fully developed, and their living standards have been improved for quite some time now.

I'll absolutely agree that most of the countries have increased in terms of economic power in the last few years, but is that tied in with an increase in living standards for the majority? I think todays globalised world with big multinational companies is showing that a country that is an economic powerhouse doesn't necessarily share that with its people.

Edit: As for the energy stuff - I agree with you that the tech is ready, and I'm really glad that it is - anything that reduces our dependence on fossil fuels is great. So why aren't we using it? It can't just be because of NIMBY's and environmentalists.

[MooseBreath]

China being the obvious example here, I think you'll find that living standards have improved massively over the last few years. Maybe not to what you perceive as ideal but certainly for the Chinese the improvements have been monumental.

[leicsmac]

China being the obvious example here, I think you'll find that living standards have improved massively over the last few years. Maybe not to what you perceive as ideal but certainly for the Chinese the improvements have been monumental.

Have those improvements reached everyone though? Perhaps they will, in time. I hope so.

In the meantime China's form of government makes me deeply uneasy, as well as their ability to browbeat most of their population into becoming worker drones to produce goods that undercut the West. It's made them an economic superpower and no doubt it has improved the living standards of many fortunate people, but tell that to the poor bastard who is still working 12 hours a day 7 days a week making Nike T-shirts for a pittance because the multinational company that made a deal with the government can get away with paying him that little, its the only job for a hundred miles and knowing that his one-room home could be bulldozed by government thugs at any time to make way for a factory/dam/railway line.

Oh, and being beaten/shot by those same government thugs for expressing an opinion.

[MooseBreath]

And we're not "worker drones"? The guy making shoes is probably happy to do that because it beats not knowing how he was going to feed his kid when he was properly poor. It beats doing back breaking labour on a farm for 18 hours a day all for a bowl of rice and a bit of snake meat. These people are becoming mobilised for the first time and i'm sure they're loving every minute. There is certainly a tangible excitement and buzz on the streets of China. You should go there and feel it, it's immense. Coming back to the UK feels like coming back to the land that time forgot. Makes you wonder just how justifiable our superiority complex over 'poorer' countries really is.

[leicsmac]

And we're not "worker drones"? The guy making shoes is probably happy to do that because it beats not knowing how he was going to feed his kid when he was properly poor. It beats doing back breaking labour on a farm for 18 hours a day all for a bowl of rice and a bit of snake meat. These people are becoming mobilised for the first time and i'm sure they're loving every minute. There is certainly a tangible excitement and buzz on the streets of China. You should go there and feel it, it's immense. Coming back to the UK feels like coming back to the land that time forgot. Makes you wonder just how justifiable our superiority complex over 'poorer' countries really is.

To a certain extent certainly we are. We do the get-up-go-to-work-go-to-sleep in the same way, but at least as a result of it most can afford to spend money in whatever way they want on things that make their life more enjoyable. It's not much of a step up but...

And as it happens I was about to say that comparing the difference between tilling a field for 18 a day for a bowl of rice and working making shoes for 12 a day for a pittance that might buy a bit more than a bowl of rice is practically no difference at all, but then that small difference could mean everything to the person, like I said above. 'It's not much of a step but...'

I guess it's just the lack of choice that gets me over there. At least over here we can change jobs and have a temporary welfare safety net for if/when we do, as well as being able to freely vote and express our opinion of our leaders. China doesn't seem to have those things. But maybe the ordinary Joe over there feels like they're not needed. They've not quite managed TOTAL freedom of expression yet, but they're close enough.

Edit: I still think South Korea is a really good economic model right now and an example of how capitalism and socialism mixed in a good way. 20 years ago they were a military dictatorship, and now they are a leading economy fuelled by exports of products all over the world, and the living standard over there matches any Western country. They have a capitalist economic model, but socially they're very socialist in that action is nearly always taken as a group.

[Captain...]

You wouldn't have any decent consumer goods because no-one would have any incentive to invent them

I cant believe you still haven't moved on from these communism ideas. How can you not see that society as it exists today is a direct product of capitalism, you can't just place communism on top of capitalisms achievements and say "woo, look how much better this fits". Without capitalism none of this exists. Without greed and a desire for more we're still apes, and probably not even as advanced as that.

Your ability to read what hasn't been written is at its usual high level. I've not said I support communism, nor that I want us to be communist. I've said I don't know how it would work if products were built to last, but it would force innovation as it would be the only way to sell.

Yes this great society and all its ills are a direct result of capitalism, but capitalism is not the same as greed, again if you could actually read what people write you would understand that. If everyone was a true capitalist it would be a much different place. Greed is not part of the capitalism model, expansion and growth is, collusion, corruption and price fixing has undermined growth and free markets, brought in the need for public companies and utilities and heavy regulation.

The capitalism debate is for another thread, this is about money and greed.

[Captain...]

Solar - more expensive than oil currently, but the technology is ready

Gas fracking - getting huge in America, will no doubt take off here soon too once the need for it is louder than the the pesky environmentalists

Wind - technology is ready, "environmentalists" slowing this one down too because they are selfish twats.

Nuclear - massive new nuclear power station was given the go ahead in the last few days

Natural gas - at least one new gas power plant has been built in the UK recently

Tidal - technology already in place to gain huge amounts of energy from the tides, a monster barrage over the river severn is planned but yet again the "environmentalists" are desperate for this clean, renewable energy source to be banned because it might kill a toad

I'm sure there's more besides.

There are many alternatives, but you are pretty naive if you think we can just switch to these energy sources when the oil runs out, we need to be building them now, and should have been for years, and we should be replacing them with renewable sources, gas requires the use of finite natural resources, sun, wind, tidal are all in inexhaustible supply if we could harness that effectively then it would see in a golden age, where we would be free to develop and expand almost without limit. That has been and continues to be held back by those that own the oil and all the wealth and power that comes with it.

[MooseBreath]

There are many alternatives, but you are pretty naive if you think we can just switch to these energy sources when the oil runs out, we need to be building them now, and should have been for years, and we should be replacing them with renewable sources, gas requires the use of finite natural resources, sun, wind, tidal are all in inexhaustible supply if we could harness that effectively then it would see in a golden age, where we would be free to develop and expand almost without limit. That has been and continues to be held back by those that own the oil and all the wealth and power that comes with it.

Non-oil energy sources are being planned and built now as I explained. We don't really need to be building them now though. Still plenty of oil left, plenty of time for capitalism to drive technology forward.

[ozleicester]

Anyone who owns a storage unit should have their home taken away and be forced to live in the unit.

If youve got enough shit that you need another place to keep it... YOU GOT TOO MUCH STUFF!

oops sorry thought this was grinds your gears.