An Open Letter to David Davis MP

[lush]

The fact that you choose to focus on the small minority of instances (perhaps 5% at the VERY most) where white people suffer what may be perceived to be racially influenced disadvantage, while completely ignoring the 95% of cases that go the other way says plenty about you, little of it pleasant.

159349[/snapback]

ultra, that is a anti-white racist attitude.

[Rincewind]

Until the people of the islamic faith learn that their faith is not what everyones faith should be, then they`ll always be viewed as idiots.

Just by this statement alone you are stereotyping.

However if it is applied to all religions I would agree to some extent. Islam will not take over here because we Brits are too set in their ways and would not accept a life without drink,debauchary, unfaithfulness, womanising, certain meats, football and many other things not allowed in harline Islamic life.

[lush]

Just by this statement alone you are stereotyping.

159466[/snapback]

The koran says it, and all muslims adhere to the koran...

[Rincewind]

the Koran says this?

Until the people of the islamic faith learn that their faith is not what everyones faith should be, then they`ll always be viewed as idiots.

very strange.

[lush]

the Koran says this?

Until the people of the islamic faith learn that their faith is not what everyones faith should be, then they`ll always be viewed as idiots.

very strange.

159579[/snapback]

Yeah that would be very strange, which wasnt what i was onabout, but this is:

“Fight the unbelievers till they pay the Jizya (heavy tax on non-Muslims) and are subdued.â€Â[9:29]

"If they accept Islam, desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya [heavy tax on non-Muslims]. … If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them" [sahih Muslim, book 19, no. 4294]

[Thracian]

Why was this thread ever started? I'm going back to Babylon's Pure Quality.

[Gamesmaster]

Why was this thread ever started?

160150[/snapback]

i think it was started to attack muslims

[Ultra]

It was actually started by a Muslim. Some of the original points were quite reasonable but there were one or two reckless comments. There is no way that Europe will become Islamic by the end of the century, though it may become secular, which would be no bad thing.

However certain posters on here seem intent on giving Muslims a hard time and that is way out of order.

[lush]

However certain posters on here seem intent on giving Muslims a hard time and that is way out of order.

160728[/snapback]

Certain muslims in british society seem intent on giving british citizens a hard time, and that is way out of order. Its good to even things up a little, dont you think?

Cue huge silence

[Dunc]

What I don't understand is why people are singling out a religion, or class, or race, or colour, or country etc and saying that they are to blame or should look at themselves and their beliefs.

The sooner politicians, religious leaders, community leaders etc, realise that its not 'Islam' or 'Asians' or 'Chavs' or the 'BNP' as groups thats the problem then things might improve. In my opinion, every social class, group, race, religion, colour, whatever, has a high proportion of people who are honest, law abiding, peaceful and respectful members of the public. I'm quite a optimist so I think it would be around 90-98% who are good honest people, they maybe live their lives in different ways but essentially they are law abiding. (For the sake of argument lets call it 95%)

Unfortunately this means there are (for this argument) 5% that are people that aren't law abiding or in the case of religion justify criminal acts by distorting the beliefs of their religion.

The only way that society can help is to realise that its not muslims or asians or americans that are the problem, admit that all religions, race, nationalities, classes have an undesired element and work together as one society to 'out' the 5% and give them no place to hide.

This in my opinion, does indeed include the muslim fundamentalists, but it also includes the 5% of people that cause all the problems on urban estates be they white, black, asian etc. It also includes the 5% of what used to be the white middle class and upper class who abuse their position in society and every other social demograph you can think of.

Until we have politicians that have the nerve and bottle to admit to problems in all areas of society and get communities to work together to eradicate as best as possible this 5% instead of the media banging on about muslims and islam all the time this kind of thread will be seen for the foreseeable future.

[Thracian]

It was actually started by a Muslim.  Some of the original points were quite reasonable but there were one or two reckless comments.  There is no way that Europe will become Islamic by the end of the century, though it may become secular, which would be no bad thing.

However certain posters on here seem intent on giving Muslims a hard time and that is way out of order.

160728[/snapback]

One sided as usual.

You don't think then that we whites are having a hard time in any way having to put up with people starting these sort of antagonistic threads in the first place or, out there in the real world, having increasingly fewer decent jobs to go to cos they've been taken by foreigners.

And, how do you work out that Europe may become secular with all the racist diatribe being given out by anti-white and anti-Jewish clerical zealots?. Pity you don't aim your anti-racist barbs at them instead of just the football fans.

Then another thing. Why was the thread started in the first place. Was it deliberately antagonistic?

You really are so bloody patronising and smug and yet you NEVER answer straightforward questions in a straightforward way from what I've seen.

There is every way that England (I don't know that Europe was ever mentioned) may

become Islamic by the end of the century.

Firstly there is already a great deal of Muslim influence on councils in this country, particularly those in the major cities (and that is no coincidence).

Secondly so many jobs are being taken by foreigners now (juniors doctors are now unable to get training job because of the huge influx of foreign doctors (40,000 in five years) that there will be an increasing flood of intelligent young natives moving out if they've got any sense cos no-one's going to defend their rights while this lot are in place.

Getting rid of the intelligencia has always been a big thing with the "everyone's equal" brigade and New Labour seem to be cleverly getting the incoming foreigners to do it for them

It happened under Harold Wilson and it will be even more pronounced in future. That will mean that the percentage of Muslims will increase faster than anticipated and therefore so will their influence.

If I lived in a Muslim country and my presence had that effect I would be ashamed.

Not that I'd want it to happen and not that I'd be allowed to let it happen.

You, I imagine, with your one-sided and hypocritical stance on everything, will be delighted. Like I say your so-called racist stance only works one way. You think it is only Asians and coloured folk who suffer from racism. I think white natives are the biggest victims now and you don't say a word about that.

Did you see the line-up of Gourmet Gate workers? Multiculturism at its best I suppose - not a white man in sight (nor a Chinaman, nor a West Indian). Just Asians from what I could see.

I feel like my country's getting raped by all this ill-thought-out change, all the anti-white-native positive discrimination initiatives (Tony's favourite word) and people like you just stand back and watch and appear to smirk in satisfaction.

Why am I so uncomfortable?. Because every colour and creed fits in more or less. It is only the fundamentalist Muslims who want everyone and everything to sing to their tune.

And yet, even in Britain, it turns out the multi-section Muslim Council of Great Britain is revealed not to represent the views of Muslims in general because they are not an elected body.

Indeed, its leaders, it turns out, regularly attend the funeral's of fundamentalists etc.

So even in a democracy - where Muslims can benefit from the democratic system - the main public Muslim organisation does not allow moderates or anyone else to have a democratic voice.

How do you defend that Ultra? Or has the BBC taken a leaf out of the Sun's book an made it up?

Do you agree with that lack of democracy?

[Ultra]

Oh dear, another deeply paranoid rant, untroubled by fact.

Re-read your comments, substitute the word "Jews" for "Muslims" and you'll sound incredibly like Abu Hamza.

The difference is, he's locked up on a charge for incitement (which a court will consider in due course), and you're not.

That hardly fits in with your world view, does it?

[Ultra]

ultra, that is a anti-white racist attitude.

159448[/snapback]

Ah diddums. The nursery will reopen soon, so we'll be spared reading drivel like this!

I hope the workers are trained to deal with tantrums thrown by you and your pal!

[breadandcheese]

Again, the problem occurs with definitions.

Islam is radically different to Islamism. Hence:

Islam = religion

Islamism = religion merged with political ideology. Islamism is the problem with its belief in the divinity of Islam and intolerable approach to anything deemed un-Islamic. Indeed, it heralds from Wahabi Islam, with its roots in Saudi Arabia, and is particularly practised in Pakistan. It is this zealous form, with its influence into daily life (and the inability to devolve religion and state) that is the problem.

Islamism is driving Islamist terrorism today, with its belief in the divinity of Islam (with overtures to medieval times when the muslim empire was most powerful and the most advanced in the world) This can be seen in the language used e.g. using crusader (harking back to the crusades) and the restoration of empires (the great Muslim caliphate). It is the belief that Islam is the only way to live life, which restricts debate and indeed religions in some Muslim countries. Indeed, when islam is mixed with political ideology, it is very easy to twist the scenario into a West vs. Muslim context, creating a sense of victimhood and further encouraging the seperation of British muslims. Indeed, Islamists use all the same arguments and tactics that the far right employ here in Britain (albeit within their own context).

We should all be united in a fight against Islamism. It is an evil ideology that should be despised (in the same way we should despise the equally facist beliefs of the far right).

Thus, Islam is a noble religion, in the same way as Christianity, Judaism, etc. Islamism is a nasty facist ideology that has caused the deaths of many thousands of people, particularly Muslims (and will continue to do so).

[Thracian]

Again, the problem occurs with definitions.

Islam is radically different to Islamism. Hence:

Islam = religion

Islamism = religion merged with political ideology.  Islamism is the problem with its belief in the divinity of Islam and intolerable approach to anything deemed un-Islamic.  Indeed, it heralds from Wahabi Islam, with its roots in Saudi Arabia, and is particularly practised in Pakistan.  It is this zealous form, with its influence into daily life (and the inability to devolve religion and state) that is the problem.

Islamism is driving Islamist terrorism today, with its belief in the divinity of Islam (with overtures to medieval times when the muslim empire was most powerful and the most advanced in the world)  This can be seen in the language used e.g. using crusader (harking back to the crusades) and the restoration of empires (the great Muslim caliphate).  It is the belief that Islam is the only way to live life, which restricts debate and indeed religions in some Muslim countries.  Indeed, when islam is mixed with political ideology, it is very easy to twist the scenario into a West vs. Muslim context, creating a sense of victimhood and further encouraging the seperation of British muslims.  Indeed, Islamists use all the same arguments and tactics that the far right employ here in Britain (albeit within their own context).

We should all be united in a fight against Islamism.  It is an evil ideology that should be despised (in the same way we should despise the equally facist beliefs of the far right).

Thus, Islam is a noble religion, in the same way as Christianity, Judaism, etc.  Islamism is a nasty facist ideology that has caused the deaths of many thousands of people, particularly Muslims (and will continue to do so).

160866[/snapback]

What a thoroughly enlightening post.

But will the moderates of all faiths have the ability to fight the fanatics?

Surely the women and the young people hold the key yet it is the young who seem to be the main recruitment target for the extremists. It is very important, surely, the sort of education these young people get and that they integrate properly, is it not?.

[freund]

Thracian you're getting very boring, very quickly.

[Thracian]

Thracian you're getting very boring, very quickly.

160882[/snapback]

Coming from you, that's serious.

[freund]

LOLROLFALFOLMOA

[Dunc]

I've been reading wikipedia's page and associated pages on islam which are very enlightening to me, as I had little knowledge of islam/islamism etc before.

Just a point B&C are you then agreeing with me? If so then I guess we will have to wait with baited breath for Lush's eloquent response.

[Dunc]

Oh dear, another deeply paranoid rant, untroubled by fact.

Re-read your comments, substitute the word "Jews" for "Muslims" and you'll sound incredibly like Abu Hamza.

The difference is, he's locked up on a charge for incitement (which a court will consider in due course), and you're not.

That hardly fits in with your world view, does it?   

160858[/snapback]

Interesting point - when you do substitute the word Jews for Muslims it does read a bit like a NAZI party manifesto!

However, I do agree with Thracian when he asks if the moderates of all religions can fight the fanatics. However, I would revert back to my 1st post and say its not just the fanatics of islamism we need to fight it's also the influence that neo-con born again christians (some percieve the bible belt to be fanatical) have in American (and to a lesser extent British) politics.

As I say it is a small minority of all social demographs that need to be tackled not just isolated groups, if we want to succeed in creating a unified society, either nationally or internationally.

[Katy]

Do you get the feeling you've been had? This guy comes on and posts his letter and then stands back and watches everyone tear chunks out of each other.

Iftikhar, you are an enzyme!

[Thracian]

Do you get the feeling you've been had? This guy comes on and posts his letter and then stands back and watches everyone tear chunks out of each other.

Iftikhar, you are an enzyme!

160903[/snapback]

Exactly.

And one who promotes a deliberate (and malicious) biochemical reaction.

[breadandcheese]

I've been reading wikipedia's page and associated pages on islam which are very enlightening to me, as I had little knowledge of islam/islamism etc before.

Just a point B&C are you then agreeing with me?  If so then I guess we will have to wait with baited breath for Lush's eloquent response.

160888[/snapback]

Dunc, I do agree with you, however, feel that your post tags too many topics with the same brush i.e. there is always 5% of a population that have problems and we must act to do something about it. Defnitely we have to, but I feel that to approach a subject such as this in that way is to misjudge the dangers of ideology. Still today, I feel we delude ourselves in the belief that there are root causes of Islamist terrorism. If we eliminate one (e.g. Israel-Palestine, Iraq, etc), others will be found.

For example, I have heard suggestions that the original Gulf War was the fault of the West (by encouraging Saddam to invade Kuwait), that the sanctions in place over Iraq (in the nineties) were again a war against Muslims (with scant regard to the reasons for them). Conveninently, events such as Kosovo (and the US-British offensive against Serbia for its ethnic cleansing of muslims) are of course forgotten. Any cause will be found to imply victimhood and a sense of isolation.

I am unsure how to tackle the problem of this ideology. I would hope that this ideology of hatred can be argued and fought with words.

I also want to state that I do not think religion is a bad thing. In fact, I would go one further and say that religion has provided a backdrop to most of the major world powers throughout history. The problem is only when people take religion out of a private setting and attempt to bring it into a public arena.

[lush]

Unfortunately this means there are (for this argument) 5% that are people that aren't law abiding or in the case of religion justify criminal acts by distorting the beliefs of their religion.

160782[/snapback]

So lets say for the sake of it theres 2 million muslims in britain, that means there are 100,000 unlawful muslims in britain.

Scary.

[lush]

Indeed, Islamists use all the same arguments and tactics that the far right employ here in Britain (albeit within their own context).

We should all be united in a fight against Islamism.  It is an evil ideology that should be despised (in the same way we should despise the equally facist beliefs of the far right).

160866[/snapback]

Can i add the far left to your islamism and far right stance, thanks.