Wrong tactics?

[Thracian]

On 2/2/2017 at 10:06, Thracian said:

Ranieri needs to go. And the quicker the better. But that won't mend us overnight.

 

Ironically, two of our best players in some situations, have become two of our worst this season. Drinkwater and Vardy.  

 

Drinkwater's always been the fans favourite. Whatever they watch from him, he's irreplaceable.

 

I've never been his greatest fan but I do think he's  become much stronger in winning the ball and never stops trying and taking responsibility.       

In terms of attitude I can't fault him.

 

The problem is he gives the ball away far too easily and often in trying to do something that's not on.

 

And, he's all but no threat whasoever in front of goal -either in terms of scoring himself or teeing someone else up.

 

His third problem is that he not tellingly creative anyway.

 

He doesn't beat a man or threat a canny pass very often. Nor does he flight the ball in the manner, say, of Davie Gibson who could quite literally drop the ball on a sixpence and often did in his demonstrations.

 

Given that, team him with spoilers like N'Didi and Amartey in midfield and there's no real supply for anyone without King because King is the only quick and accurate passer we have.

 

There needs to be balance and why we've not signed more creative players I don't know.

 

Then there's Vardy. He might well have a case for becoming frustrated because he's been supplied like a hermit on a desert island...once or twice in a very long time.

 

But instead of demanding something be done he seems to just go through the motions now and not many of them at that.

 

My take on his typical game now is to have two or three early chases to give the lie to being up for it and to miss a couple of half chances without ever giving the impression he's going to score before fading  like a spent battery.

 

His goals record this season doesn't reflect the temporary bad spell that all strikers go through but something seriously wrong among the team group.

 

And whatever the reasons I can find no explanation for his not being dropped.  .       

 

Unless someone can get to the core of the problem immediately and get it sorted.  

 

       

 

[Babylon]

21 hours ago, Moksky said:

Thats what we did in most of matches last season, even against the likes of the WBA, they had more posssession.

Yes, last season... but it might have escaped your attention but that style DOES NOT WORK anymore.

 

21 hours ago, Moksky said:

Ask yourself how many points did we get out of those fixtures in the first season, attractive on the eye I agree, but when you need points

Points first season:

Arsenal 1

United 3

Liverpool 1

Chelsea 0

West Brom 3

Burnley 4

 

Points this season so far:

Arsenal 1

United 0

Liverpool 0

Chelsea 0

West Brom 0

Burnley 3

 

Well... that's not going too well is it considering out style is meant to get more points.

 

21 hours ago, Moksky said:

im afraid the first thing to do is not to concede, the lower the confidence the deeper you sit, and you resort to the counter attacking, and in the run to stay up thats excatley what we did and the momentum carried in into the success last season.

You don't seem to get it, I'm not asking for ridiculous attacking gung ho football, I'm asking for us to actually attempt to play a mix just like we are capable of and what we used to do. Hoofing non stop has never been our style and it's getting us nowhere at all. When we put the run together we mixed the football up, it was not just punting it 50 ft every time you get the ball.

 

21 hours ago, Moksky said:

I would like to see it tried next season and coaced in a good pre seasson, but we need better ball playing players than the like of Huth. U less Im missing something, with Huth you cant really build from the back. Those players you mention , most were not featuring into the battle to stay up

It's exactly what should have been done this summer. You don't need a load of Maldini's at the back to be able to pass, we did it with shite like Konch, Moore, De Laet. Yes we lost a lot, but that's because they aren't good defenders. We have far better players than that first season, so there is absolutely no excuse at all, for us to not be able to pass the ball around a bit.

 

I'm not asking for us to be Barcelona or even Bournmouth. Just to mix up our boring game plan that's currently going to get us relegated.

 

[USFox]

On 2/1/2017 at 23:44, Blizzard said:

I read a lot about tactics on here, is it really as simple as Raneri tactically getting it wrong?

Yes. I believe so. We should have seen flaws with the team in the summer during our friendlies and then especially so after the first few weeks of the Prem League. Ranieri went in with a team that slowly devolved to losing and built a losing culture. Changes should have happened after we got beat down by Liverpool.

[HoustonFox]

Powerful quote in the Guardian today by Tom Huddlestone:

 

“Wherever the ball is on the pitch and whatever system we play we know exactly what is and what isn’t required of us, with and without the ball. With the amount of information he’s put into us there are no excuses. If you don’t do well now it’s down to a loss of concentration because we know exactly where he wants us to be and when. The lads have bought into that and it’s showing on the pitch. He’s also quite offensive in the way he likes us to play and his gameplans are very good.”

 

This sounds like the opposite of how we are playing at the moment.  Not on a witch hunt for Claudio, but there must be some blame on him and the coaching staff too.  When I watch the matches, we don't seem to have that "gameplan" this season.

 

Full article:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/feb/03/marco-silva-manager-hull-city-no-days-off-liverpool

[chicagofox]

Can someone please tell me what our current tactics/tactics are?  We have no defined style of play and look like a bunch of strangers on the pitch who've never met each other before 

[Moksky]

15 hours ago, Babylon said:

Yes, last season... but it might have escaped your attention but that style DOES NOT WORK anymore.

 

Points first season:

Arsenal 1

United 3

Liverpool 1

Chelsea 0

West Brom 3

Burnley 4

 

Points this season so far:

Arsenal 1

United 0

Liverpool 0

Chelsea 0

West Brom 0

Burnley 3

 

Well... that's not going too well is it considering out style is meant to get more points.

 

You don't seem to get it, I'm not asking for ridiculous attacking gung ho football, I'm asking for us to actually attempt to play a mix just like we are capable of and what we used to do. Hoofing non stop has never been our style and it's getting us nowhere at all. When we put the run together we mixed the football up, it was not just punting it 50 ft every time you get the ball.

 

It's exactly what should have been done this summer. You don't need a load of Maldini's at the back to be able to pass, we did it with shite like Konch, Moore, De Laet. Yes we lost a lot, but that's because they aren't good defenders. We have far better players than that first season, so there is absolutely no excuse at all, for us to not be able to pass the ball around a bit.

 

I'm not asking for us to be Barcelona or even Bournmouth. Just to mix up our boring game plan that's currently going to get us relegated.

 

 

Why on earth would you compare this season to the first, Its convenient for you to put the first season v this season. Try comparing the first season to last season? 

 

Would you have seriously tore up up everything about last season , bought in new players to be able to play a different style of football in the summer having just won the Prem. Did Fergie do that with Man U every season. The answer is no. 

 

What we we did do last season was because we were confident was play and retain possession more, and we're more comfortable on the ball, particularly higher up the pitch. We were on the front foot, now we are on the back foot. We were still a counter attacking side. Solid at the back, those players got the ball forwards to the players who could cause damage. Counter attacking does not mean hoofing , in our case for Vardy. 

 

The players are not coached to lump it at every opportunity, If you hadn't noticed Ranieri is telling them to keep the ball on the ground. It was evident again on Tuesday, he was constantly gesturing and been getting frustrated because it's ended up being launched far too often.

 

surely you must understand that a settled side and formation is key, players will learn more about each other and the partnerships around the pitch can form. Like Drinkwater and Ndidi . He needs to settle the side down and stick to a formation. 

It's the confidence and trust within the players that is currently lacking. You seem to think Ranieris asked them to become Wimbledon with the crazy gang style of football. 

 

You just don't get it, certain players have took their foot off the gas, we are looking for Kantes replacement, the lack of desire, hunger, leads to lacks of pace, intensity and energy. we are not competing like we did. No matter what style you want, you won't win football matches if you dont give everything. Vardy is one of those whose focus is not entirely on it. Added to the mix some fatigue, which was made worse by a ridiculous pre season. 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

The major difference between us and pretty much every other PL team is that when in possession, no one else seems to want the ball. You can see it when Mahrez is attempting to dribble down the right wing. He runs into trouble with 3 players on him, but our lads to stand around watching or move away rather than offer him an option to pass.

 

This in turn makes it appear that Mahrez is greedy (sometimes he is), but much of the time no one is giving him a good option.

 

Not sure if this is a confidence thing, laziness, or poor coaching.

[Moksky]

8 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

The major difference between us and pretty much every other PL team is that when in possession, no one else seems to want the ball. You can see it when Mahrez is attempting to dribble down the right wing. He runs into trouble with 3 players on him, but our lads to stand around watching or move away rather than offer him an option to pass.

 

This in turn makes it appear that Mahrez is greedy (sometimes he is), but much of the time no one is giving him a good option.

 

Not sure if this is a confidence thing, laziness, or poor coaching.

Spot on , lack of confidence to want the ball or take responsibility. Not enough leaders at the minute. 

[Babylon]

Do you actually bother to read posts?

 

1 hour ago, Moksky said:

Why on earth would you compare this season to the first, Its convenient for you to put the first season v this season. Try comparing the first season to last season?

Errr because you said playing a bit of football didn't get you points, specifically referring to the first season.

 

1 hour ago, Moksky said:

Would you have seriously tore up up everything about last season , bought in new players to be able to play a different style of football in the summer having just won the Prem. Did Fergie do that with Man U every season. The answer is no.

Again, please actually attempt to read peoples posts because this is getting boring. I've never suggested a revolution in style, but it was as clear as day to me that out style was being combated last season as teams started to sit deep. We found it more and more of a struggle. We needed to adapt our style, not rip it up and start again. Keep the counter attacking as a weapon but bring more weapons into the armory to get through deep lying defences.

 

As for Ferguson, he had some of the best players in the world, we did not. We had a system that people took lightly, but systems can be combated far easier than good players.

 

1 hour ago, Moksky said:

What we we did do last season was because we were confident was play and retain possession more, and we're more comfortable on the ball, particularly higher up the pitch. We were on the front foot, now we are on the back foot. We were still a counter attacking side. Solid at the back, those players got the ball forwards to the players who could cause damage. Counter attacking does not mean hoofing , in our case for Vardy. 

 

The players are not coached to lump it at every opportunity, If you hadn't noticed Ranieri is telling them to keep the ball on the ground. It was evident again on Tuesday, he was constantly gesturing and been getting frustrated because it's ended up being launched far too often.

 

But they are lumping the ball and he's doing nothing about it. He changes formation and doesn't give it a chance, he gives players two hours notice of a formation change before a game. Against Copenhagen he said his instructions had actually been just launch it. His tactical changes last year, of going more direct worked, but it's coached out of us the ability we used to have of passing and moving and supporting. Now he might not be asking them to just launch it, but it's partly because of how they've been coached for the last year. If he doesn't want them to launch it, then coach into them to give options, get people dropping back to get the ball, getting close to each other so passes can be made easier. If he doesn't do that, then it will continue to happen.

 

1 hour ago, Moksky said:

surely you must understand that a settled side and formation is key, players will learn more about each other and the partnerships around the pitch can form. Like Drinkwater and Ndidi . He needs to settle the side down and stick to a formation. It's the confidence and trust within the players that is currently lacking. You seem to think Ranieris asked them to become Wimbledon with the crazy gang style of football.

Where have I said otherwise? You need to tell the manager fella, he's the one who tried 4 formations in 5 games and constantly changes the starting 11 because he doesn't have a clue how to solve the problem.

Ranieri turned us into a team that was totally reliant on one style of football, it was great when it worked but he hasn't adapted when it doesn't. He's still fixated on trying to recreate that style, when it's just not going to work.

1 hour ago, Moksky said:

You just don't get it, certain players have took their foot off the gas, we are looking for Kantes replacement, the lack of desire, hunger, leads to lacks of pace, intensity and energy. we are not competing like we did. No matter what style you want, you won't win football matches if you dont give everything. Vardy is one of those whose focus is not entirely on it. Added to the mix some fatigue, which was made worse by a ridiculous pre season. 

 

Oh I get it, considering I was one of the few that predicted they would do so. I've constantly listed god knows how many things that are wrong. But this is the tactics thread, so this focuses on what's wrong with the tactics. I'm well aware it's just one part of many issues.

 

 

[Moksky]

6 hours ago, Babylon said:

Do you actually bother to read posts?

 

Errr because you said playing a bit of football didn't get you points, specifically referring to the first season.

 

Again, please actually attempt to read peoples posts because this is getting boring. I've never suggested a revolution in style, but it was as clear as day to me that out style was being combated last season as teams started to sit deep. We found it more and more of a struggle. We needed to adapt our style, not rip it up and start again. Keep the counter attacking as a weapon but bring more weapons into the armory to get through deep lying defences.

 

As for Ferguson, he had some of the best players in the world, we did not. We had a system that people took lightly, but systems can be combated far easier than good players.

 

 

But they are lumping the ball and he's doing nothing about it. He changes formation and doesn't give it a chance, he gives players two hours notice of a formation change before a game. Against Copenhagen he said his instructions had actually been just launch it. His tactical changes last year, of going more direct worked, but it's coached out of us the ability we used to have of passing and moving and supporting. Now he might not be asking them to just launch it, but it's partly because of how they've been coached for the last year. If he doesn't want them to launch it, then coach into them to give options, get people dropping back to get the ball, getting close to each other so passes can be made easier. If he doesn't do that, then it will continue to happen.

 

Where have I said otherwise? You need to tell the manager fella, he's the one who tried 4 formations in 5 games and constantly changes the starting 11 because he doesn't have a clue how to solve the problem.

Ranieri turned us into a team that was totally reliant on one style of football, it was great when it worked but he hasn't adapted when it doesn't. He's still fixated on trying to recreate that style, when it's just not going to work.

Oh I get it, considering I was one of the few that predicted they would do so. I've constantly listed god knows how many things that are wrong. But this is the tactics thread, so this focuses on what's wrong with the tactics. I'm well aware it's just one part of many issues.

 

 

Why are you trying to turn this into bitch scrap over the internet. Behave youself , you have you opinion I have mine. Debate if you want, slanging match, Ive got better things to do. You be saying 'whateva' soon whilst holding up your hand.

 

Stand back and look at what you wrote, I believe you play football if you have the players to suit that type of football. We dont. We won the league on work rate and unity and understanding each others strengths, he got the balance right, and we defended from the front, our flair was provided by Mahrez. Kante eptomised what we did. Its all stuff you know.

 

When Ferguson won the league he didnt have World class players, they developed into them.

 

They work on shape all week, and patterns of play . Hes not that stupid. I know what I know, and know enough about the game to say that. That evens happens at lower level. 

 

I am not defending everything he has done, but he wanted to change our shape and style and the players opted to stay in as we were last season, as for this tactics thing, once again the resources he has and the influence on those resources, of course it influences the tactics. You can not seperate the tactics and the mindset of players and their fatigue, we are not pressing high or close enough, we are running less every game. 

You have to earn the right to play football, do the dirty hard work first. Run hard, work hard off the ball, get in peoples faces, play with tempo, , gain the mental upper hand. We outfought most last season, then and not always you get time to play the football we all like. We earned the respect and right to play that way.

 

Im saying no more on the matter . all elements come into play not to mention some injuries we've had to key players.

 

Easy to pick holes. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[erlee]

On 2/2/2017 at 00:48, Babylon said:

It's not just about tactics, there are a hundred other little things that have accumulated to get us in this position. But his persistence with attempting to recreate last seasons style, when it hasn't worked from day one... and actually started to struggle at the end of last season, is one of the biggest.

 

He fell into the trap that so many did on here, of seemingly believing that the only issue was the we didn't have Kante. The overloading of our squad with defensive midfielders highlights that.

 

We needed to start thinking about adapting in the summer, not radical change. But a tweak on what we had to add other threats and add other ways of playing. Pearson had his critics on here for his style. But we were capable of mixing it up depending on circumstance. If we could knock the ball about we would, if we had to hit it long, we would. If we have the chance to counter attack at pace, we would. There was no fixed system.

 

Now though, we only have one way of playing, hit the ball long to isolated players and hope they hang onto it and do something with it. It's doomed for failure as the oppo just drop deep, have an extra man and there is nothing we can do as there is so little support.

 

I've seen absolutely no attempt to change our style of play, only the shape of the team (with a ridiculous 4 formations in about 5 games) and a constant swapping about of players hoping something works. Nothing has though, because we continue to try and play the same way.

 

That's why I didn't understand the moaning about the transfer window. If we continue to play in this way, if doesn't matter who you bring in because it's the style of play that's flawed.

yes that's exactly how i think..  doesn't matter who you sign - our style of play together with the bad mood will swallow up the new players. Its evident that non of the new players have contributed much - maybe Slimani