Notre Dame

[MC Prussian]

A video game could play a crucial role in rebuilding Notre Dame:

 

[ozleicester]

42 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

You are slightly conflating two different issues - one is historic, one is social.

 

First of all, the official report these numbers are based upon doesn't make it clear whether "30'000 children will sleep on the streets in France tonight".

https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1281324

 

All it does is measure the amount of people using these services. It does state that 80'000 people are without home ("sans domicile"), yet that doesn't automatically mean that they are purely and/or factually "homeless", meaning having no place to go at night. Also no word on how many of these people are lying about their status (for various reasons) and for how long these people have been homeless and/or how temporary their status is.

 

The actual amount of factual homeless people in France, adults and children alike, remains unknown. With all certainty, it surely is fluctuating. A bit like the unemployment rate - you can never get rid of it completely, but at least lower it to a more socially acceptable level.

 

I also think that the French authorities should know best how to deal with this domestic issue, without us having to virtue signal all the time, looking from the outside in.

Australians should care most about Australian issues first, just as much as the British should take care of their domestic issues first. Argue from a healthy domestic basis before trying to make the rest of the world a better place.

 

Let's not forget France also has other issues to deal with, and their authorities have to set priorities accordingly.

As a case in point, poverty in general is a problem in France, affecting roughly nine million people - ten times:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20181108/report-the-shocking-truth-about-poverty-in-france-in-2018

 

With regards to Notre Dame, reconstructing such a historic building does need massive amount of money and time. Lack of blueprints and similar rebuilding cases make this a unique undertaking. And I agree it has a historic relevancy that should not be underestimated. These buildings are meant to be marveled at based on the accomplishment in itself, just as much as the Roman Ruins in Rome - the Taliban bombing the Buddha statues in Bamyan, Afghanistan was also a crime against culture.

 

I'm sure you wouldn't argue against rebuilding Notre Dame, no?

We can agree that money should be spent in order to balance out domestic social issues, whilst at the same time take care of the country's historic and cultural legacy.

I disagree, they are one issue, money being spent to rebuild a building..or money being spent to save lives and lift innocents from homelessness.

 

Whether the specific numbers may be unknown, it is a fact that thousands of innocents are homeless.

i can be concerned with others outside my country, a bigger picture isnt hard to take in.

 

The other priorities should not include rebuilding a building with public or donated money when the Catholic church is one of the worlds richest organisations and avoids tax as well.

So yes i would argue against the rebuilding when there are children and innocents sleeping on the streets and not eating a decent meal while the scum in the church ride around with solid gold cups and draped in gold.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/17/notre-dame-we-cant-even-burn-a-building-down-without-everyone-carrying-on-like-idiots-anymore

Edited 23 April 2019 by ozleicester

[MC Prussian]

41 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

I disagree, they are one issue, money being spent to rebuild a building..or money being spent to save lives and lift innocents from homelessness.

 

Whether the specific numbers may be unknown, it is a fact that thousands of innocents are homeless.

i can be concerned with others outside my country, a bigger picture isnt hard to take in.

 

The other priorities should not include rebuilding a building with public or donated money when the Catholic church is one of the worlds richest organisations and avoids tax as well.

So yes i would argue against the rebuilding when there are children and innocents sleeping on the streets and not eating a decent meal while the scum in the church ride around with solid gold cups and draped in gold.

 

A partial reconstruction was already taking place, and the French do love their historical buildings (as part of their cultural heritage and national pride), so they would have never given up on rebuilding Notre Dame that easily. Just watch the videos of Parisiens singing hymns and praying in the vicinity of the ruins.

That it has come to this is tragic and it involves lots of money, money that simply needs to be spent on specialists, research, preparation, logistics, replacement material. It's going to take years, if not decades, to bring Notre Dame back to its original state. This is a massive and unprecedented enterprise.

I hope you're not arguing the amount of money involved, because that's just what it takes.

 

If French billionaires decide to donate a massive chunk of their own money for the cause, it's their right to do so. It's their money.

We also don't know whether these same people don't donate to the poor and homeless already.

There's enough stories of entrepreneurs and rich people in general spending their money for a good cause. But we don't hear about it, because they usually don't make a big fuss about it.

 

Notre Dame is owned by the French state, not the Church. So it's their primary obligation to guarantee the building's safety and reconstruction.

And just because the Catholic Church hasn't declared any financial support as of now doesn't mean it won't do so in the (near) future:

https://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-the-Catholic-Church-offered-to-pay-for-the-repair-of-Notre-Dame-Cathedral-before-or-after-the-fire

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/04/17/vatican-culture-czar-offers-optimistic-take-on-notre-dame-tragedy/

 

Estimates place the total cost at around US$800 million, so there's a long way to go. In the end, I won't be surprised if the costs surpass a billion US Dollars.

 

And like I said, instead of focusing on the homeless (of which most are innocent, but not all) as the consequence, we should focus on the causes of homelessness in order to prevent future dilemmas.

Spending money on existing problems doesn't solve the problem, it just guarantees a constant perpetuation of the problem and brings with it a whole social service industry that often - not always - cares more about itself than about the poor and/or the homeless.

 

You do seem to care about the topic, and that's totally fine, I applaud you for that. I'm just saying that instead of whinging about what's happening in another part of the world and how people distribute their own wealth, we ought to take care of our domestic issues first, before waiving the index finger.

 

Australia, for instance, has about the same amount of homeless people as does France, but with less than half of France's population. Putting it in proportion, that makes it a much more pressing issue in Australia than it does in France, does it not? So, where's your outrage when it comes to "children and innocents sleeping on the streets (of Australia) and not eating a decent meal while the scum in the (Australian) church ride around with solid gold cups and draped in gold"? Close to a quarter of all Australians declare themselves Roman-Catholic.

 

In 2008, Australia vowed to half the number of homeless people by 2020.

Unfortunately enough, the number keeps on rising instead:

https://www.homelessnessaustralia.org.au/about/homelessness-statistics

Edited 23 April 2019 by MC Prussian

[ozleicester]

6 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

A partial reconstruction was already taking place, and the French do love their historical buildings (as part of their cultural heritage and national pride), so they would have never given up on rebuilding Notre Dame that easily. Just watch the videos of Parisiens singing hymns and praying in the vicinity of the ruins.

That it has come to this is tragic and it involves lots of money, money that simply needs to be spent on specialists, research, preparation, logistics, replacement material. It's going to take years, if not decades, to bring Notre Dame back to its original state. This is a massive and unprecedented enterprise.

I hope you're not arguing the amount of money involved, because that's just what it takes.

 

If French billionaires decide to donate a massive chunk of their own money for the cause, it's their right to do so. It's their money.

We also don't know whether these same people don't donate to the poor and homeless already.

There's enough stories of entrepreneurs and rich people in general spending their money for a good cause. But we don't hear about it, because they usually don't make a big fuss about it.

 

Notre Dame is owned by the French state, not the Church. So it's their primary obligation to guarantee the building's safety and reconstruction.

And just because the Catholic Church hasn't declared any financial support as of now doesn't mean it won't do so in the (near) future:

https://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-the-Catholic-Church-offered-to-pay-for-the-repair-of-Notre-Dame-Cathedral-before-or-after-the-fire

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/04/17/vatican-culture-czar-offers-optimistic-take-on-notre-dame-tragedy/

 

Estimates place the total cost at around US$800 million, so there's a long way to go. In the end, I won't be surprised if the costs surpass a billion US Dollars.

 

And like I said, instead of focusing on the homeless (of which most are innocent, but not all) as the consequence, we should focus on the causes of homelessness in order to prevent future dilemmas.

Spending money on existing problems doesn't solve the problem, it just guarantees a constant perpetuation of the problem and brings with it a whole social service industry that often - not always - cares more about itself than about the poor and/or the homeless.

 

You do seem to care about the topic, and that's totally fine, I applaud you for that. I'm just saying that instead of whinging about what's happening in another part of the world and how people distribute their own wealth, we ought to take care of our domestic issues first, before waiving the index finger.

 

Australia, for instance, has about the same amount of homeless people as does France, but with less than half of France's population. Putting it in proportion, that makes it a much more pressing issue in Australia than it does in France, does it not? So, where's your outrage when it comes to "children and innocents sleeping on the streets (of Australia) and not eating a decent meal while the scum in the (Australian) church ride around with solid gold cups and draped in gold"? Close to a quarter of all Australians declare themselves Roman-Catholic.

 

In 2008, Australia vowed to half the number of homeless people by 2020.

Unfortunately enough, the number keeps on rising instead:

https://www.homelessnessaustralia.org.au/about/homelessness-statistics

I am fully aware of Australia's shortcomings, but again i am capable of caring about more than just my own little area.

 

Apparently 13 million people go to Notre every year... 20 bucks each will cover the cost pretty quickly, surely if everyone is so enamoured with it they wont begrudge paying a few bucks to see it.

[MC Prussian]

6 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

I am fully aware of Australia's shortcomings, but again i am capable of caring about more than just my own little area.

 

Apparently 13 million people go to Notre every year... 20 bucks each will cover the cost pretty quickly, surely if everyone is so enamoured with it they wont begrudge paying a few bucks to see it.

Exactly. The costs for rebuilding Notre Dame will in parts already be covered by the money earned from tourists visiting or having visited the site.

But that's only one part of it.

The rest will have to be coughed up by the French state aka the taxpayer. The French are a solidary bunch, they will put up with it based on national pride (Parisians in particular).

 

Yet what little I have picked up about the construction business is that first estimates usually tend to be too low compared to the final costs... This means it'll involve a lot of money in the end.

Edited 23 April 2019 by MC Prussian

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Exactly. The costs for rebuilding Notre Dame will in parts already be covered by the money earned from tourists visiting or having visited the site.

But that's only one part of it.

The rest will have to be coughed up by the French state aka the taxpayer. The French are a solidary bunch, they will put up with it based on national pride (Parisians in particular).

 

Yet what little I have picked up about the construction business is that first estimates usually tend to be too low compared to the final costs... This means it'll involve a lot of money in the end.

or the church could pay

or it could be left as is, see the Coventry cathedral in its destroyed state, amazing!

[MC Prussian]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

or the church could pay

or it could be left as is, see the Coventry cathedral in its destroyed state, amazing!

Of course, and it remains to be seen whether they chuck in a few million in the end or not or assist in the reconstruction in other ways.

First of all, the French state is obliged to take care of the financing, as it is their property.

 

Their call to make, not ours.

[ozleicester]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/18/ruins-notre-dame-billionaires-french-philanthropy

 

 

Meanwhile, the salaries of 150 workers on site have to be paid. The 300 or so tonnes of lead in the church roof pose a toxic threat that must be cleaned up before the rebuilding can happen. And pregnant women and children living nearby are undergoing blood tests for possible poisoning. But funding such dirty, unglamorous, essential work is not for the luxury-goods billionaires. As the Notre Dame official said last month, they don’t want their money “just to pay employees’ salaries”. Heaven forfend! Not when one could endow to future generations the Gucci Basilica or a Moët Hennessy gift shop, so you, too, can enjoy the miracle of sparkling wine, or a nave by L’Oréal (tagline: Because Jesus is Worth It).

[ozleicester]