Liverpool 3-1 LCFC, post match thread

[The Doctor]

20 minutes ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Bilal and Ayew were the only starting players last night who were signed in the Cooper period. And they were far away from being our worst players.

That's the point isn't it? He signed Okoli, BDcR, Ayew, Skipp and Bilal and now, 5 games into a new manager, only two are starters and one of those is because the alternative is out for the season with an ACL.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

Being straight, it appears you're still on an anti Cooper agenda. By the way, I was not a staunch supporter of his and realise fully he had to go with the feeling in the fan base at the very least.

 

You've yet to answer whether they were actually *his* signings. However, let's assume they were for a minute. BET is good and will get better. I think Okoli is no worse than Coady, probably better IMO, and I don't understand why he hasn't been given a similar chance. Reid was only ever a back up. Ayew has been better than say Daka, or Cannon would have been, an Enzo signing as of course was Coady. 

 

I'm looking at what RvN is doing with what is at his disposal. There did seem to be a little more defensive discipline last night to an extent, being fair. But he lost us the game against Wolves because he was too stupid to realise the Ward situation and when we were 2 1 down last night and arguably still in with a shout of a draw, simply changed personnel rather than anything else. 

 

I hope he (RvN) does improve as we can't afford literally to go down. I have yet however to see that he has the nous needed. I hope I'm wrong and happy to be so and put my hand up in that case. All the best. 

 

Edited 27 December 2024 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[The Doctor]

5 minutes ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Being straight, it appears you're still on an anti Cooper agenda. By the way, I was not a staunch supporter of his and realise fully he had to go with the feeling in the fan base at the very least.

 

You've yet to answer whether they were actually *his* signings. However, let's assume they were for a minute. BET is good and will get better. I think Okoli is no worse than Coady, probably better IMO, and I don't understand why he hasn't been given a similar chance. Reid was only ever a back up. Ayew has been better than say Daka, or Cannon would have been, an Enzo signing as of course was Coady. 

 

I'm looking at what RvN is doing with what is at his disposal. There did seem to be a little more defensive discipline last night to an extent, being fair. But he lost us the game against Wolves because he was too stupid to realise the Ward situation and when we were 2 1 down last night and arguably still in with a shout of a draw, simply changed personnel rather than anything else. 

 

I hope he (RvN) does improve as we can't afford literally to go down. I have yet however to see that he has the nous needed. I hope I'm wrong and happy to be so and put my hand up in that case. All the best. 

 

he was the manager in charge in that window and we don't run a head coach model where recruitment is done without manager control, to pretend they're not his signings is a pro cooper agenda that doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny. besides BEK, not one improves our starting line up and that's the way you improve squad depth, not by signing new players worse than your current starters.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

2 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

he was the manager in charge in that window and we don't run a head coach model where recruitment is done without manager control, to pretend they're not his signings is a pro cooper agenda that doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny. besides BEK, not one improves our starting line up and that's the way you improve squad depth, not by signing new players worse than your current starters.

I don't have a pro Cooper agenda. Sorry to disappoint you. 

[The Doctor]

Just now, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

I don't have a pro Cooper agenda. Sorry to disappoint you. 

if my recognising that the transfer window he presided over has done severe damage to our chances of survival is an anti cooper agenda then you definitely do have a pro cooper agenda, sorry to disappoint you

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

59 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

if my recognising that the transfer window he presided over has done severe damage to our chances of survival is an anti cooper agenda then you definitely do have a pro cooper agenda, sorry to disappoint you

I definitely don't. Not a logical conclusion whatsoever whatever you might think. Just trying to work out whether RvN is going to be the capable manager we desperately need and I don't yet see it. Let's hope he does. 

Edited 27 December 2024 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[Clever Fox]

On 26/12/2024 at 23:27, Chrysalis said:

Liverpool clever for first goal, made us break our shape by allowing us to have the ball for a few minutes to get players forward a bit, also noticed how we kept trying hard passes where pool players were in the way, thats a coaching problem, we look lost when we trying to score with sustained possession.  World class training facility with bog standard coaches.

 

Also for the first time this season felt the referring was all bit a weird, VAR very odd how it took so long and they were moving frame backwards and forwards as if they were trying to achieve a result, even the live commentator said it was odd, as they were doing it with ball of screen.  Ref associations seems frit of Liverpool.

The Coaching has been poor since Shaky Rip left. Lets hope this new no 2 is as good as his reputation at Man City etc.

Holland has produced some of the best Coaches over the last 40 years, Surely Ruud should be able to bring in a couple of up and coming Coaches from Holland to work with him.

 

The first Goal came from Winks losing the Ball when he was in the Liverpool half and out of position. That's not the first time I've seen him make the same mistake.

He's got to so better in those situations despite being one of our better players. I thought Jakub could have been a foot more to his left when Gakpo got on the Ball as that's a trademark Goal by him.

One he's scored many times, Still it was a great Strike which would have beaten most keepers.

We gave it a go but were simpy out muscled by their superior strength.

 

Var is a joke, It's not doing what it was designed for, That's to correct wrongs within the game. It needs to be overhauled.

The other thing I've noticed with Var is, If the Commentors call it as a Goal or a Foul , Var usually agrees, Var should not be able to be influenced by the Match Commentors.

[LCFCJohn]

On 27/12/2024 at 13:10, The Doctor said:

if my recognising that the transfer window he presided over has done severe damage to our chances of survival is an anti cooper agenda then you definitely do have a pro cooper agenda, sorry to disappoint you

It wasn’t great but I think you are over egging it slightly due to feelings towards Cooper. I would say it was more what business wasn’t done rather than what was. 
 

If you look at last summer (Enzo) from a what the signings offered (as yet) and from what we are privy to re transfer fees etc, I’d suggest the following:

 

Hermansen - absolute hit, bargain.

Fatawu - hit

Mavididi - hit (not great this season)

Winks - hit

 

Doyle - miss as he didn’t really offer much.

Casadei - miss, people seemed happy he went back early.

Coady - way way overpaid and has offered nothing.

Cannon - maybe offer something in the future but did not get many minutes last season and now loaned out.

 

At best, that’s a 50/50 record.

 

Summer just gone.

 

Bilal - looks like a hit

Okoli - has promise. Probably given we already had a number of centre halves, if you were bringing one in you’d want them to come into the 11 and be established. 

 

Ayew - clearly unfashionable but it was £5mill which in today’s premier league money is a pittance. It’s £2.5 mill a season over the 2 years and he has been scoring vital goals that have directly won us points against our rivals. Put aside the fact he is unfashionable and yes, a sign of how we have fallen (pre-Cooper), the signing for what was spent and the return so far is a hit. Even if he should be a squad player not a starter.

 

BDR - free transfer. A market we have under utilised. Without knowing wages etc, it seemed a sensible bit of business that Pearson would have been lauded for. Again, unfashionable due to the level we have been at. Neither a hit or miss as he seemed quite bright in Ruud’s opening games so may provide some useful contributions as the season goes on. 
 

Buonanotte - under Cooper was offering much more than the loanees last season. Unsure why Ruud has dropped him.

 

Eduoard - flop, but any more so than say Casedei last season on loan? Possibly a bit more fair enough. 
 

Skipp - massive overpay and yes so far a flop. Compatible in that sense to Coady last season. If we go down, I can see him being an important player for us next season.

 

The point I am illustrating I suppose is that the aren’t necessarily more ‘flops’ than half the signings last season. But we did manage to get more hits but that for me, is the business no done. We finished the summer still with a number of gaps. 

 

 

[The Doctor]

2 hours ago, LCFCJohn said:

It wasn’t great but I think you are over egging it slightly due to feelings towards Cooper. I would say it was more what business wasn’t done rather than what was. 
 

If you look at last summer (Enzo) from a what the signings offered (as yet) and from what we are privy to re transfer fees etc, I’d suggest the following:

 

Hermansen - absolute hit, bargain.

Fatawu - hit

Mavididi - hit (not great this season)

Winks - hit

 

Doyle - miss as he didn’t really offer much.

Casadei - miss, people seemed happy he went back early.

Coady - way way overpaid and has offered nothing.

Cannon - maybe offer something in the future but did not get many minutes last season and now loaned out.

 

At best, that’s a 50/50 record.

 

Summer just gone.

 

Bilal - looks like a hit

Okoli - has promise. Probably given we already had a number of centre halves, if you were bringing one in you’d want them to come into the 11 and be established. 

 

Ayew - clearly unfashionable but it was £5mill which in today’s premier league money is a pittance. It’s £2.5 mill a season over the 2 years and he has been scoring vital goals that have directly won us points against our rivals. Put aside the fact he is unfashionable and yes, a sign of how we have fallen (pre-Cooper), the signing for what was spent and the return so far is a hit. Even if he should be a squad player not a starter.

 

BDR - free transfer. A market we have under utilised. Without knowing wages etc, it seemed a sensible bit of business that Pearson would have been lauded for. Again, unfashionable due to the level we have been at. Neither a hit or miss as he seemed quite bright in Ruud’s opening games so may provide some useful contributions as the season goes on. 
 

Buonanotte - under Cooper was offering much more than the loanees last season. Unsure why Ruud has dropped him.

 

Eduoard - flop, but any more so than say Casedei last season on loan? Possibly a bit more fair enough. 
 

Skipp - massive overpay and yes so far a flop. Compatible in that sense to Coady last season. If we go down, I can see him being an important player for us next season.

 

The point I am illustrating I suppose is that the aren’t necessarily more ‘flops’ than half the signings last season. But we did manage to get more hits but that for me, is the business no done. We finished the summer still with a number of gaps. 

 

 

The summer before though, the flops (and I think it's harsh to call Doyle that when he looked fine pre injury) are the loanees, the u21s squad member (much as this site doesn't want to hear it on cannon). the only one signed permanently to be a first team member who didn't work is Coady, and looking at the alternatives we had to each of them:

 

Hermansen -> Ward

Coady - we lost Amartey, Evans and Cags, he's better than any of the u21s that were behind Faes and Vestergaard 

Doyle - Kristensen walked out on loan because he didn't want to play that system, our other left back options were right backs on the other side 

Winks - we lost tielemans and Maddison, the cm options were KDH and Praet

Casadei - as winks 

Mavididi - no wingers outside of the u21s having lost Barnes 

Fatawu - better than final season Albrighton

Cannon - one for the future but better than the rest of the youth team that would have to cover vardy in January 

 

all made sense and filled in weak spots. All were priority positions having lost the majority of players that could play there (Mav, Winks, Coady, Casadei, Doyle) or a position we didn't have a single player for the season before (Hermansen)

 

compare that to this season:

 

Golding - tit for tat psr fiddle, we won't judge 

Okoli - I'll grant, I think he's better than Faes

BDCR - not an improvement on any of the wingers we had, doesn't offer anything extra that McAteer doesn't 

Ayew - as BDCR besides the handful of goals, and even then he's a forward who gets booked more regularly than he scores

Skipp - not an improvement on Winks, Ndidi or Soumare

BEK - undeniable that we were missing someone of that skillset

Buonanotte - as BEK

Edouard - not an improvement on Vardy or Daka, signed a whole month after Daka went out injured 

 

 

Skipp, Ayew and BDCR cost near half our budget for the summer and weren't necessary. Edouard you could almost forgive if he'd been in earlier and a 6 month loan as a definitive second choice to cover Dakas injury period, instead we waited til Daka was fully on the mend to bring him in. None really improved on what we already had besides BEK and Facundo, and similarly, besides BEK and Facundo, none were any really priority positions when we had clear need at right back with Ricky and JJs injury history and at left back with only Kristensen. 

 

like, you can forgive flops if the signing made sense on paper. much as I'm one of the major daka apologists on here, it's fair to call him a bit of a flop but the signing made sense, we needed a heir to Vardy given a couple of seasons as understudy/job sharing before supplanting him. not worked but the plan made sense. what even is the plan with Skipp or Ayew?

Edited 29 December 2024 by The Doctor

[squidsworth]

Strictly speaking this isn't the thread for this discussion, but when you lose kdh, mads, teilmans, barnes and ndidi gets old and out most of the time, you're gonna struggle. Winks is solid enough but on his own, isn't enough. Fats and mav still have a lot to prove at this level.

And the others, who are they even? A loan player that can't get in the team half the time (despite potential) a reserve level Tottenham player who cost millions, and a handful of unknowns whose experience in elite leagues is very questionable.  Truth is we shattered our core, and on top of that our idea of adding up front is letting two players in their twenties go and replace them with a modest 33 year old player, to go with a (almost) 38 year old.