Guest Posted 13 November 2006 Posted 13 November 2006 Allowing these two direct access to the Premier League would be a massive snub to all the Championship teams attempting to get promotion, including specifically the two that would automatically be denied promotion at that time. Bearing in mind the pressures to reduce the PL, the inclusion of these two it might also herald thisl and cause the 'relegation of two more teams. I feel very strongly about this and would say without hesitation should it ever happen I will turn my back on top level professional football. Well said. It would be outrageous.
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 13 November 2006 Posted 13 November 2006 Celtic are Champions League contenders, a championship team finishing 6th isn't. I think practically that it could never be done for the reasons I've outlined above. It would also jeapordise the teams' individual chances to qualify for the Champions League, which would surely introduce fiscal constraints?
davieG Posted 14 November 2006 Posted 14 November 2006 Celtic are Champions League contenders, a championship team finishing 6th isn't.I think practically that it could never be done for the reasons I've outlined above. It would also jeapordise the teams' individual chances to qualify for the Champions League, which would surely introduce fiscal constraints? I don't understand your reason for that quote? Their inclusion would still prevent a Championship team from being in the Premiership. Hwo would you feel IF LCFC managed to get into and win the playoffs and where denied promotion because Celtic where given priority? I know that wont happen in that way but that would be the affect - why are you so concerned about the fiscal health of Celtic and not LCFC?
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 14 November 2006 Posted 14 November 2006 I don't understand your reason for that quote? Their inclusion would still prevent a Championship team from being in the Premiership. Hwo would you feel IF LCFC managed to get into and win the playoffs and where denied promotion because Celtic where given priority? I know that wont happen in that way but that would be the affect - why are you so concerned about the fiscal health of Celtic and not LCFC? I would be first in line to... write some very angry letters And indeed something like that would be very wrong. But my point was that they're effectively a premiership team, and it's not just them - Rangers as well. Or any other very strong professional team who by mutual wish were for whatever reason admitted to the English FA. I know there are complications but if both parties wanted it I couldn't see any other way that teams like that could join. No one should have to sacrifice promotion, although it has happened before when leagues have been restructured.
Finnegan Posted 14 November 2006 Posted 14 November 2006 Not sure the Hun are really Premiership quality, in all honesty.
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Not sure the Hun are really Premiership quality, in all honesty. I'm trying very hard here to be impartial and you're not helping!!
Finnegan Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Whaaaaaaaat? Me!? It's hardly as if I'm prone to bias against imperialistic, Jack-waving eejits. I love to see the Union Jack flying in all four corners of our land! See? Sniff, sniff. I smell backlash...
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Whaaaaaaaat? Me!? It's hardly as if I'm prone to bias against imperialistic, Jack-waving eejits. I love to see the Union Jack flying in all four corners of our land! See? Sniff, sniff. I smell backlash... Haha... I dunno how others feel about the Union Jack but I reckon it's more a symbol of partition than unity. I guess I'd still wipe my arse with it Would I be right in saying that English folk take more pride in good old St. George? The pride of the British Isles: Toilet paper:
Finnegan Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Intersting question. I think a large amount of English people are worried that their own flags are controversial. A mixture of the BNP and football hooliganism have instilled a negative ideology in both symbols and I think that's a little unfortunate. Now, I've two problems with the Union Jack. Firstly, the fact it represents the United Kingdom, a political entity the existence of which I (and this is a different debate all together) despise. Secondly, my nation (whether I wish it to be or not) isn't even represented! Something I find insulting and belittling (much, I'm sure, to the glee of the rest of FoxesTalk.) However, I do think it's somewhat sad that a lot of people seem somewhat phobic of waving it (though, it should be pointed out that wearing it as an item of clothing is fine) through fear of association with racist, bigot wankers. It's an undeniable part of their heritage and history and is a symbol of the Rule Britannia ethos. I think the St. George's cross is growing in prominence, though from observation I think the English seem to be prouder of the Jack than the Cross. You see, the Union Jack represents England's might, it's domination over a large portion of the world and it's undeniably impressive "British" (English) empire. While that's something the Welsh and Scotish generally begrudge, it's a source of pride for the English. While we generally loathe the fact we're swept with the British brush, the English are generally more accepting of tag 'British' because Britain and it's stereotypes and traditional ideologies is England. It's late, I'm tired and that's probably a little jumbled. Apologies if I've just confused you even more. I'll probably log on tomorow and edit it a bit.
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 I think the St. George's cross is growing in prominence, though from observation I think the English seem to be prouder of the Jack than the Cross. You see, the Union Jack represents England's might, it's domination over a large portion of the world and it's undeniably impressive "British" (English) empire. While that's something the Welsh and Scotish generally begrudge, it's a source of pride for the English. While we generally loathe the fact we're swept with the British brush, the English are generally more accepting of tag 'British' because Britain and it's stereotypes and traditional ideologies is England. I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Like, it shits me when I hear about wankers who fly the Jack in Northern Ireland... I think the Irish have made it pretty clear that they want no bar of it, but there are always those with imperialist mentalities who like to drape themselves in it.
lookwhaticando Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Union Jack first, St. George's second. That's just the way it is for me.
Finnegan Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 The Union Jack in Northern Ireland's a slightly bad example, really, Dan - because it's not that simple. The Irish haven't made it perfectly clear they want to be seperate from the United Kingdom. In fact, there's an entire (mainly protestant) faction of Northern Ireland that wants to be British. That's generally the point of the Troubles. Not everyone wants this "freedom". More or less the day the British first offered an official peace treaty (1920?) the Irish have been arguing (and fighting) amongst themselves over how "free" they should be, and how many counties they should have. It's tricky. I'm bias, I admit, I find it difficult to understand why anyone would want their country to live in the shadow of another. Especially when your country has such a deep and rich culture and history, as is Ireland and Wales. But today, not everyone's really that bothered - and that's been the case over the past centuary, not just now. So yes, I find it sad to see Scots and Northern Irish waving the Jack (I generally think we do it less than the others) but I wouldn't say it "shits me". That said, Northern Irish football fans still piss me the fook off. Tossers. I'm sure there's nice ones out there, just the same as not every England fan away from home's a hooligan, but I've far worse experiences with the NI lot than the English.
Joe. Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Would hate it if Celtic or Rangers were allowed to go into English football. It would be crap. :pinch:
gatesheadfox Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Not sure the Hun are really Premiership quality, in all honesty. they're barely scots premiership quality these days and how i love it
filbertway Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 I would be first in line to... write some very angry letters And indeed something like that would be very wrong. But my point was that they're effectively a premiership team, and it's not just them - Rangers as well. Or any other very strong professional team who by mutual wish were for whatever reason admitted to the English FA. I know there are complications but if both parties wanted it I couldn't see any other way that teams like that could join. No one should have to sacrifice promotion, although it has happened before when leagues have been restructured. I would bet that celtic and rangers would both struggle to get promotion from the championship.
Finnegan Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Don't talk rubbish. Celtic'd struggle to be top six in the premiership, maybe, but they're a good side. Maloney and McGeady are fantastic young talents, Nakamura and Gravesen are good enough for any mid-table / UEFA cup English side as are Vennegoor of Hesselink and Kenny Miller. I don't think any team that can best Benfica should be snubbed.
davieG Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 I would bet that celtic and rangers would both struggle to get promotion from the championship. No one really knows how they would fare over a season or two, but you can be sure that the money would come rolling in as the media fell over themselves in the rush to put them on the TV. This money would provide the necessaries to propel them up the leagues very quickly. How long the novelty bubble would stay afloat I've no idea. Either way I wouldn't be hanging around to find out.
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 The Union Jack in Northern Ireland's a slightly bad example, really, Dan - because it's not that simple. The Irish haven't made it perfectly clear they want to be seperate from the United Kingdom. In fact, there's an entire (mainly protestant) faction of Northern Ireland that wants to be British. That's generally the point of the Troubles. Not everyone wants this "freedom". More or less the day the British first offered an official peace treaty (1920?) the Irish have been arguing (and fighting) amongst themselves over how "free" they should be, and how many counties they should have. I see where you're coming from - but remember that the so-called 'state' of NI was not an Irish concept, it was imposed by the British government of the day. Irish may have voted on it, but it left people in the north out in the cold. Everyone might not 'want' this freedom, but surely the wishes of a minority in the north shouldn't decide the fate of a nation. I think the only way forward is a mixture of reunification and tolerance. I have no problem whatsoever with the Orange Order, it's their culture and their way which they should be entitled to. But when as a national minority they get a say that a big chunk of a country can be 'overshadowed' by Britain, that's when I put by green/red hat on
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Don't talk rubbish. Celtic'd struggle to be top six in the premiership, maybe, but they're a good side. Maloney and McGeady are fantastic young talents, Nakamura and Gravesen are good enough for any mid-table / UEFA cup English side as are Vennegoor of Hesselink and Kenny Miller. I don't think any team that can best Benfica should be snubbed. Indeed. Even Gravesen would be an above average addition to any Championship side, and as for Maloney/Naka... we can only dream
DanTheFoxBhoy Posted 15 November 2006 Posted 15 November 2006 Either way I wouldn't be hanging around to find out. It's obviously a divisive enough issue that it shouldn't be attempted
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