Geo V Posted 3 October 2007 Posted 3 October 2007 I really wish that people stop bigging up our academy players to the extent that when they perform poorly we end up having a moan due to the ridiculous expectations of some on here like Thracian. Players develop in different ways as they get older and some make it and some don't. Recently we have seen quite a few come through the academy and with the exception of Mattock and Weso, I cant say with any definite realistic and non-biased way that the rest are at this stage up for Championship football despite the some ludicrous calls for some of them being included straight into the first team. Ive dug up some examples of how difficult it is to progress from u18 football with England's Schoolboys as an example. Of course plenty of players have come through the system but plenty fall by the wayside and dont make it. The squads I have selected are random from the fa.com website by just searching in google by typing "England u18 squad 2002 and 2003) and these are the results. I have highlighted those from each year who have gone on to play at this level or above thus far. 2003 - Lisbon Tournament (These lads will all be between 21/23 now) CARSON Scott - Liverpool and England - Big success COLLINS Patrick - Darlington FERDINAND Anton - West Ham, success GARDNER Ross - Ilkeston Town GROVES Tom - Cant find any info GUY Lewis - Cant find any info HENDERSON Ian - Northampton Town KILKENNY Neil - Oldham on loan via Brum LUCKETT Stephen - Cant find any info FRANCIS, Simon - Southend United LONG Stacy - Ebbsfleet United PEACOCK Anthony - currently unattached after being released by Darlington PROFFITT Dorryl - Cant find any info ROMA Dominic - Hinckley United SAMBA Cherno - Contracted to Plymouth, currently on loan to Wrexham TILLEN Samuel - Brentford F.C TURNBULL Ross - Contracted to Mboro since 2002, currently at his 6th loan club at Cardiff WILSON Kyle - Cant find any info 2002- (These lads will all be between 21/24 now) BIGGINS James - Cant find any info BORROWDALE Gary - Decent player currently at Coventry. BROWN Scott Everton FC - Cheltenham Town CARSON Scott - Liverpool and England - Big success DOHERTY Sean - Royal Antwerp F.C. ECKERSLEY Adam - Still on Man Uniteds books, on loan to third club at the moment at Barnsley. GARDNER Ross - Ilkeston Town GROVES Tom - Cant find any info GUY Lewis - Cant find any info HOGG Chris - Hibernian LONG Stacy - Ebbsfleet United MCDERMOTT Neale - Carlisle United PROFFITT Dorryl - Cant find any info SAMBA Cherno - Contracted to Plymouth, currently on loan to Wrexham SANKOFA Osei - 14 games in 5 years at Charlton, currently on loan to Bristol City YOUNG Jamie - Wycombe Wanderers The point of the thread is instead of people burdening these lads with unrealistic expectations like some do about our academy, sit back and read the stats for the best kids in the whole of England never mind Leicester and realize that over-hyping these lads is not helpful as the lions share wont make it at all within the top two divisons.
Ted DiBiase Posted 3 October 2007 Posted 3 October 2007 "GUY Lewis - Cant find any info" Where exactly did you look for info? I just typed his name into google and there was plenty of info as the 2nd result. SANKOFA Osei - 14 games in 5 years at Charlton, currently on loan to Bristol City Last time I looked they were doing a bit better than us at this level. Sorry if it seems like Im being pedantic, I dont mean to be.
Geo V Posted 3 October 2007 Author Posted 3 October 2007 "GUY Lewis - Cant find any info"Where exactly did you look for info? I just typed his name into google and there was plenty of info as the 2nd result. SANKOFA Osei - 14 games in 5 years at Charlton, currently on loan to Bristol City Last time I looked they were doing a bit better than us at this level. Sorry if it seems like Im being pedantic, I dont mean to be. I was checking in Wiki but in Soccerbase Lewis Guy plays for Doncaster apparently. As for Sankofa I did say where he was but didn't highlight the name. He has hardly pulled up any trees either to be fair though has he?!
Miquel The Work Geordie Posted 3 October 2007 Posted 3 October 2007 2003 - Lisbon Tournament (These lads will all be between 21/23 now) CARSON Scott - Liverpool and England - Big success COLLINS Patrick - Darlington FERDINAND Anton - West Ham, success GARDNER Ross - Ilkeston Town GROVES Tom - Cant find any info GUY Lewis - Cant find any info HENDERSON Ian - Northampton Town KILKENNY Neil - Oldham on loan via Brum LUCKETT Stephen - Cant find any info FRANCIS, Simon - Southend United LONG Stacy - Ebbsfleet United PEACOCK Anthony - currently unattached after being released by Darlington PROFFITT Dorryl - Cant find any info ROMA Dominic - Hinckley United SAMBA Cherno - Contracted to Plymouth, currently on loan to Wrexham TILLEN Samuel - Brentford F.C TURNBULL Ross - Contracted to Mboro since 2002, currently at his 6th loan club at Cardiff WILSON Kyle - Cant find any info Patrick Collins is a magician on the ball.
Geo V Posted 3 October 2007 Author Posted 3 October 2007 Patrick Collins is a magician on the ball. Dominic Roma has also done well enough as he has had a football club in Italy named after him.
weggy1976 Posted 3 October 2007 Posted 3 October 2007 I really wish that people stop bigging up our academy players to the extent that when they perform poorly we end up having a moan due to the ridiculous expectations of some on here like Thracian. Players develop in different ways as they get older and some make it and some don't. Recently we have seen quite a few come through the academy and with the exception of Mattock and Weso, I cant say with any definite realistic and non-biased way that the rest are at this stage up for Championship football despite the some ludicrous calls for some of them being included straight into the first team.Ive dug up some examples of how difficult it is to progress from u18 football with England's Schoolboys as an example. Of course plenty of players have come through the system but plenty fall by the wayside and dont make it. The squads I have selected are random from the fa.com website by just searching in google by typing "England u18 squad 2002 and 2003) and these are the results. I have highlighted those from each year who have gone on to play at this level or above thus far. 2003 - Lisbon Tournament (These lads will all be between 21/23 now) CARSON Scott - Liverpool and England - Big success COLLINS Patrick - Darlington FERDINAND Anton - West Ham, success GARDNER Ross - Ilkeston Town GROVES Tom - Cant find any info GUY Lewis - Cant find any info HENDERSON Ian - Northampton Town KILKENNY Neil - Oldham on loan via Brum LUCKETT Stephen - Cant find any info FRANCIS, Simon - Southend United LONG Stacy - Ebbsfleet United PEACOCK Anthony - currently unattached after being released by Darlington PROFFITT Dorryl - Cant find any info ROMA Dominic - Hinckley United SAMBA Cherno - Contracted to Plymouth, currently on loan to Wrexham TILLEN Samuel - Brentford F.C TURNBULL Ross - Contracted to Mboro since 2002, currently at his 6th loan club at Cardiff WILSON Kyle - Cant find any info 2002- (These lads will all be between 21/24 now) BIGGINS James - Cant find any info BORROWDALE Gary - Decent player currently at Coventry. BROWN Scott Everton FC - Cheltenham Town CARSON Scott - Liverpool and England - Big success DOHERTY Sean - Royal Antwerp F.C. ECKERSLEY Adam - Still on Man Uniteds books, on loan to third club at the moment at Barnsley. GARDNER Ross - Ilkeston Town GROVES Tom - Cant find any info GUY Lewis - Cant find any info HOGG Chris - Hibernian LONG Stacy - Ebbsfleet United MCDERMOTT Neale - Carlisle United PROFFITT Dorryl - Cant find any info SAMBA Cherno - Contracted to Plymouth, currently on loan to Wrexham SANKOFA Osei - 14 games in 5 years at Charlton, currently on loan to Bristol City YOUNG Jamie - Wycombe Wanderers The point of the thread is instead of people burdening these lads with unrealistic expectations like some do about our academy, sit back and read the stats for the best kids in the whole of England never mind Leicester and realize that over-hyping these lads is not helpful as the lions share wont make it at all within the top two divisons. Haven't you got some homework to do instead of posting this ???
Geo V Posted 3 October 2007 Author Posted 3 October 2007 Haven't you got some homework to do instead of posting this ??? I dunno about homework but I was just trying to prove to some of the more biased and blinkered people at the club who think our academy lads who were successful last season are not necessarily good enough to waltz into our first team and become world beaters. The point was that if the best U18s in England dont make it, why do some in here think that our lads are good enough for first team football with us? I hear all sorts in here including Kee being given a game which just is beyond belief at this stage of his career.
WetFlannel Posted 3 October 2007 Posted 3 October 2007 Haven't you got some homework to do instead of posting this ??? about 50 of my other posts say: lets not get personal here...
Geo V Posted 3 October 2007 Author Posted 3 October 2007 about 50 of my other posts say: lets not get personal here... I think I am big enough and ugly enough to handle myself mate. If Weggy or whoever is more happy in talking about what shite paper they use or whether they shop at JD or Footlocker thats fine, I thought I`d just start a slightly different thread that contains some interesting facts about young players and what some amount to.
Ric Flair Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 I dunno about homework but I was just trying to prove to some of the more biased and blinkered people at the club who think our academy lads who were successful last season are not necessarily good enough to waltz into our first team and become world beaters. The point was that if the best U18s in England dont make it, why do some in here think that our lads are good enough for first team football with us? I hear all sorts in here including Kee being given a game which just is beyond belief at this stage of his career. I don't honestly think there are many of our fans that do think some of our youngsters are going to be world beaters. But on the other hand I don't think what you've posted proves anything. Our Academy team won the league last year for the whole of the country, it won it by thraping the other teams every week. There's talent in there. Some won't make it, but with the right development it would be an outrage if some of them didn't make it. We're not talking about them having to be good enough to walk in to the Premiership either, at present they need to be good enough to play in the Championship and keep on improving. There's always going to be hype with kids, it's the nature of this country. It happens everyday in all sports because these kids are the future of any sport. If there is any pressure being heaped on the shoulders of our youngsters it's because they are achieving great things in the Academy and Reserves and therefore our fans are eager for them to progress. That's not a bad thing at all, it's better than in years gone by, when our fans probably weren't even aware of the exploits of our youngsters and that can feel like a kick in the teeth for these lads. Wesolowski, Stearman and Mattock are all proving capable of being good enough for this level. They'll have their bad patches, but it's how they react when they hit a bad patch. I've been impressed with Stearman recently, who I was fearing might have let his chance here go. But he's fired up under Megson and looks like he's finding his form again. Wesolowski is pure class and unless injuries halt his career, he'll be a premiership player before too long. Mattock is very young and it's his first full season, but the past 3 games he's impressed me no end. Makes a few mistakes, but that's understandable in a team playing like it is. But he's not short of confidence and doesn't seem the sort who'll rest on his laurels. Big futures those 3, no reason why more can't follow suit.
SOCCERROO FOX Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 2003 - Lisbon Tournament (These lads will all be between 21/23 now)[/b][/u]CARSON Scott - Liverpool and England - Big success COLLINS Patrick - Darlington FERDINAND Anton - West Ham, success GARDNER Ross - Ilkeston Town GROVES Tom - Cant find any info GUY Lewis - Cant find any info HENDERSON Ian - Northampton Town KILKENNY Neil - Oldham on loan via Brum success LUCKETT Stephen - Cant find any info FRANCIS, Simon - Southend United LONG Stacy - Ebbsfleet United PEACOCK Anthony - currently unattached after being released by Darlington PROFFITT Dorryl - Cant find any info ROMA Dominic - Hinckley United SAMBA Cherno - Contracted to Plymouth, currently on loan to Wrexham TILLEN Samuel - Brentford F.CTURNBULL Ross - Contracted to Mboro since 2002, currently at his 6th loan club at Cardiff WILSON Kyle - Cant find any info Neil Kilkenny is a success was in Australias World cup squad as a back up player capped against Lichtenstein before the cup by memmory so a massive success
Eastern Fox Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 What's the point of this thread? Everyone knows that some young players make it and some don't.
Manwell Pablo Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 Talking of this has Scott Lycett got a club yet??? you'd of thought someone would of given him a contract by now. EDIT: AHAHAHA I've found him. Position: Centre Back/Centre Midfield Age : 19 Place of Birth: Stoke-on-Trent Occupation: Professional Footballer (taking time out) Former Clubs: Leicester, Manchester City, Port Vale ‘Scotty’ is a product of the Football Academy and has Captained Leceister City Reserves against Sunderland at the Stadium of Light, which he says is his most memorable game. Disillusioned with the professional game he is taking some time out to play for his favourite team. Yes, amazingly it’s Congleton Town! (****ING WHO) The player he admires the most is David Beckham, because of his sheer strength of character to deal with the constant pressure and media attention he receives. Away from football, Scott likes swimming and listening to dance music. He enjoys a good curry, but says his favourite food is actually potato wedges. Scott’s ambition in life is to play for England and he claims that he’s far too young to have had anything that could be deemed as ‘interesting’ happen to him yet. Instead he would like to issue a heart-felt plea to Keira Knightley, who he says would be his dream dinner date, as she’s totally fit. What a pleb . Wonder if he's taking time our or is being forced to take time out due to lack of offers.
Geo V Posted 4 October 2007 Author Posted 4 October 2007 I don't honestly think there are many of our fans that do think some of our youngsters are going to be world beaters. But on the other hand I don't think what you've posted proves anything. Our Academy team won the league last year for the whole of the country, it won it by thraping the other teams every week. There's talent in there. Some won't make it, but with the right development it would be an outrage if some of them didn't make it. We're not talking about them having to be good enough to walk in to the Premiership either, at present they need to be good enough to play in the Championship and keep on improving.There's always going to be hype with kids, it's the nature of this country. It happens everyday in all sports because these kids are the future of any sport. If there is any pressure being heaped on the shoulders of our youngsters it's because they are achieving great things in the Academy and Reserves and therefore our fans are eager for them to progress. That's not a bad thing at all, it's better than in years gone by, when our fans probably weren't even aware of the exploits of our youngsters and that can feel like a kick in the teeth for these lads. Wesolowski, Stearman and Mattock are all proving capable of being good enough for this level. They'll have their bad patches, but it's how they react when they hit a bad patch. I've been impressed with Stearman recently, who I was fearing might have let his chance here go. But he's fired up under Megson and looks like he's finding his form again. Wesolowski is pure class and unless injuries halt his career, he'll be a premiership player before too long. Mattock is very young and it's his first full season, but the past 3 games he's impressed me no end. Makes a few mistakes, but that's understandable in a team playing like it is. But he's not short of confidence and doesn't seem the sort who'll rest on his laurels. Big futures those 3, no reason why more can't follow suit. I think these boards aren't too healthy when it comes to our academy products to be honest. Because a few people get to the games, they come back with glowing reports and some elements of the lads on here are almost left disappointed when they don't do so well in the first team and call for them to be axed. The likes of Sheehan, Levi, Mattock, Stearman, Logan and others who have come in and done nothing more than OK at times have been slated as not being good enough and I think much of that is down to people over hyping there ability. If we ran a poll on which of these we should get rid off I think that most at one stage or another would have said the lot of them except Joe Mattock. As for the original thread, I just wanted to point out that we should kick back and just see how our younger players develop to see if they become any good instead of thinking or almost expecting them to be instant miracle players when it has been proven from what Ive listed that most of the best u18s in the whole of England haven't even made it.
Ric Flair Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 I think these boards aren't too healthy when it comes to our academy products to be honest.Because a few people get to the games, they come back with glowing reports and some elements of the lads on here are almost left disappointed when they don't do so well in the first team and call for them to be axed. The likes of Sheehan, Levi, Mattock, Stearman, Logan and others who have come in and done nothing more than OK at times have been slated as not being good enough and I think much of that is down to people over hyping there ability. If we ran a poll on which of these we should get rid off I think that most at one stage or another would have said the lot of them except Joe Mattock. As for the original thread, I just wanted to point out that we should kick back and just see how our younger players develop to see if they become any good instead of thinking or almost expecting them to be instant miracle players when it has been proven from what Ive listed that most of the best u18s in the whole of England haven't even made it. I don't see what you're getting at. If players play well, they'll be praised, if they play badly, they'll get criticised. This happens irrespective of age, but most fans will take in to consideration if it's a youngster having a rough patch (if they've proven to be talented previously). Some of these players turn out to be good enough, some don't. I do agree with you that it takes more than the odd decent game from a youngster for them to prove that they are good enough to make it, but it's down to the manager to decide that anyway. There's not been too many youngsters who have left this club having not had a fair chance and gone on to make us regret letting them go. Fans are always happy to be proved wrong as well.
Geo V Posted 4 October 2007 Author Posted 4 October 2007 I don't see what you're getting at. If players play well, they'll be praised, if they play badly, they'll get criticised. This happens irrespective of age, but most fans will take in to consideration if it's a youngster having a rough patch (if they've proven to be talented previously). Some of these players turn out to be good enough, some don't. I do agree with you that it takes more than the odd decent game from a youngster for them to prove that they are good enough to make it, but it's down to the manager to decide that anyway. There's not been too many youngsters who have left this club having not had a fair chance and gone on to make us regret letting them go. Fans are always happy to be proved wrong as well. Thats the point. Expectations. We shouldn't be expecting too much from players who are still in there embryonic stages of their careers at it could easily go from one extreme to another with many of them. So many "quality kids" go off the rails or don't show the same level of improvement when they mix it with the big boys. I have first hand experience of this as a lad who used to play in my mens footy team years ago was signed up for City on YTS forms back in the day and despite everyone at the time thinking he would end up being some kind of superstar after seeing him get winners from England schoolboys vrs Holland at Wembley and Scotland at Filbo, he didn't get beyond Hinckley United! Before we start expecting too much and over-hyping players just like some are doing about Mattock on the other thread I'm on at the moment, lets just see how they go.
Ric Flair Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 Thats the point. Expectations. We shouldn't be expecting too much from players who are still in there embryonic stages of their careers at it could easily go from one extreme to another with many of them. So many "quality kids" go off the rails or don't show the same level of improvement when they mix it with the big boys. I have first hand experience of this as a lad who used to play in my mens footy team years ago was signed up for City on YTS forms back in the day and despite everyone at the time thinking he would end up being some kind of superstar after seeing him get winners from England schoolboys vrs Holland at Wembley and Scotland at Filbo, he didn't get beyond Hinckley United!Before we start expecting too much and over-hyping players just like some are doing about Mattock on the other thread I'm on at the moment, lets just see how they go. It's an impossible ask though. It's always happened in sport. Some sink, some swim. It's the nature of the beast, you can't change that.
Geo V Posted 4 October 2007 Author Posted 4 October 2007 It's an impossible ask though. It's always happened in sport. Some sink, some swim. It's the nature of the beast, you can't change that. You can manage it though. If you look at the best person IMO who has managed his kids of recent years, Alex Ferguson. He sent some of his kids out on loan for short spells and then slowly introduced them into first team football through the reserves, then league cup and finally the first team. Even when Becks, Giggs and Scholes broke into the first team, Fergie always rested them as he didnt want to burn them out and he didnt want to ask too much from his then young players. The other side to Sir Alex is when he sends players out on loan for a season, some abroad and thats also what Wenger has done. BTW I dont think that its as simple as sinking or swimming for young players. Its more about how you manage them and what your expectations are of them.
Manwell Pablo Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 You can manage it though.If you look at the best person IMO who has managed his kids of recent years, Alex Ferguson. He sent some of his kids out on loan for short spells and then slowly introduced them into first team football through the reserves, then league cup and finally the first team. Even when Becks, Giggs and Scholes broke into the first team, Fergie always rested them as he didnt want to burn them out and he didnt want to ask too much from his then young players. The other side to Sir Alex is when he sends players out on loan for a season, some abroad and thats also what Wenger has done. BTW I dont think that its as simple as sinking or swimming for young players. Its more about how you manage them and what your expectations are of them. Alex Ferguson is good at "managing kids" because he has the biggest scouting network, the most feeder clubs and the biggest academy in England, if not Europe, if not the world! United also produce alot of dross as well as the ones that make it.
Thracian Posted 4 October 2007 Posted 4 October 2007 Thats the point. Expectations. We shouldn't be expecting too much from players who are still in there embryonic stages of their careers at it could easily go from one extreme to another with many of them. So many "quality kids" go off the rails or don't show the same level of improvement when they mix it with the big boys. I have first hand experience of this as a lad who used to play in my mens footy team years ago was signed up for City on YTS forms back in the day and despite everyone at the time thinking he would end up being some kind of superstar after seeing him get winners from England schoolboys vrs Holland at Wembley and Scotland at Filbo, he didn't get beyond Hinckley United!Before we start expecting too much and over-hyping players just like some are doing about Mattock on the other thread I'm on at the moment, lets just see how they go. Mattock is not been over-hyped any more than anyone else. Some were saying he should be loaned out three weeks ago, other have said he's not good enough. I've seen good and bad. Truth is the guy's come back, played two excellent games and one acceptable game against Premiership and top half championship opponents and against quality individual opponents. No-one's expecting too much. He's got himself back in the team and has stayed there on merit, not cos he's a promising 17-year-old. Fans "expect" things of all first teamers, the players themselves "expect" things and so does the management. Football is all about expectation and hype for everyone. Do you seriously think that only the established experienced pro's want hype when they get to the first team? Footballers, young and old, like nothing more than to be praised. By the same token they have to accept the knocks when they have a bad un - and Mattock learned all about that when he gave that goal away against Blackpool. As far as I can see he's come back better for the experience and sooner than some more of that sort of publicity I should imagine he'll take all the hype and publicity he can get. For footballers it's when they stop talking about you that you need to worry. As for Academy development it is not about the endless lists of kids who fail - it's about winners. The ones who get their chances and take them. People who can take the knocks and come back even stronger. Like Mattock, Wesolowski, King and Stearman for sure recently and hopefully some others in the weeks ahead. But it's up to them really.
Jonbluefox9 Posted 5 October 2007 Posted 5 October 2007 A lot of our successful Academy players from last season won't make it here. Lycett and Tejan-Sie have already left the club for starters. Funny how out of all the players who played for the under 18s last season on a regular basis, Mattock was the one to be given a chance towards the end of the season. This is partly due to the fact that our left wing was weak at the time, possibly is just as weak still, but also because he's got bags of natural ability and the right mind for first team football. He was one of the youngest players in the under 18s but still was chosen ahead of so many others. It takes a certain type of person to be able to perform in front of 20,000 + people at the age of 17 and Mattock is one of those types. People had been talking about him for quite some time and his performances made him stand out. As long as he keeps working hard he can only get better because the talent's there and he's gaining more and more valuable experience all the time. Not every young player has the same confidence and ability as him though.
Ric Flair Posted 5 October 2007 Posted 5 October 2007 Mattock is not been over-hyped any more than anyone else.Some were saying he should be loaned out three weeks ago, other have said he's not good enough. I've seen good and bad. Truth is the guy's come back, played two excellent games and one acceptable game against Premiership and top half championship opponents and against quality individual opponents. No-one's expecting too much. He's got himself back in the team and has stayed there on merit, not cos he's a promising 17-year-old. Fans "expect" things of all first teamers, the players themselves "expect" things and so does the management. Football is all about expectation and hype for everyone. Do you seriously think that only the established experienced pro's want hype when they get to the first team? Footballers, young and old, like nothing more than to be praised. By the same token they have to accept the knocks when they have a bad un - and Mattock learned all about that when he gave that goal away against Blackpool. As far as I can see he's come back better for the experience and sooner than some more of that sort of publicity I should imagine he'll take all the hype and publicity he can get. For footballers it's when they stop talking about you that you need to worry. As for Academy development it is not about the endless lists of kids who fail - it's about winners. The ones who get their chances and take them. People who can take the knocks and come back even stronger. Like Mattock, Wesolowski, King and Stearman for sure recently and hopefully some others in the weeks ahead. But it's up to them really. Spot on.
Manwell Pablo Posted 5 October 2007 Posted 5 October 2007 This is a bit of a daft thread Geo. Academy players make up half nearly half our first team now, and we've got three more out on loan (thats not counting Louis he's had his card marked for ages) looking to make a name for themselves.
Jonbluefox9 Posted 5 October 2007 Posted 5 October 2007 This is a bit of a daft thread Geo. Academy players make up half nearly half our first team now, and we've got three more out on loan (thats not counting Louis he's had his card marked for ages) looking to make a name for themselves. Just because Academy players make up nearly half of our first team, doesn't mean they're good enough. It might just mean they're the best we've got and looking at our current league position you could say that our best isn't good enough.
ASH17LCFC Posted 5 October 2007 Posted 5 October 2007 Just because Academy players make up nearly half of our first team, doesn't mean they're good enough. It might just mean they're the best we've got and looking at our current league position you could say that our best isn't good enough. I finally agree with someone, this guy talks alot of sence.
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