Absolute *** of our time Pt.MXXVI

[Rincewind]

Oh yes, you should know that playing war video games is not the same as the real thing. When coming from an unhappy family background and told that joining the army will make a man of you, you should say no I'll stay at home and get beat instead.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing it is said. There are nightly ads on the TV portraying the army as fun and games. You have a wonderful time driving jeeps and playing around with new technology. Strange but some young people believe it. Especially if they come from a broken home and their job prospects in civvy street are low. They do not know what is to come or where they will be sent once in the army. They may think they are mentally strong but our mental strength in different situations is unknown until we experience them.

Our minds are complex things that even phychologists cannot always explain so I doubt anyone on here can do any better.

[ADK]

Army has always attracted the mentally fragile anyway. You don't need any skills or motivation just do what you're told.

[flowwolf]

Flowolf, do you consider having a lesser mental strength to be the fault of the person and as a man they should face up and get on with things?

No of course not Ken , and as I already said no one knows what mental strength they have until put to the test. What I did say was if you join something like the Army then you should have at least some inkling . That is to say plenty of news coverage of dead military personnel being brought back home on a regular basis and all the much publicised amputees . Hardly fun and games just raw reality. If you were to join the Fire brigade would you think oh this will be fun rescuing cats from trees and putting out the odd chip pan fires in between sitting around the station watching tv or playing pool . No you should realise you will be attending horrific car crashes with dead people in horrible death scenes , same as the ambulance service.

John, both the other two mentioned services have their fair share of mental traumas due to what they see and have to deal with and often it does not appear until many years into their service . In short there are no tests to tell some ones breaking point and believe me we all have one.

In answer to your last post Ken Yes I have every sympathy with the homeless and people with mental health issues they are my fellow human beings If I came across as anything other than that I apologise.

[flowwolf]

I'm out - it's like communicating with Col City on Mephedrone.

Oh did I " offend " you again petal. I bet you cry yourself to sleep at the death of a Dandelion. :thumbup: :(

[Rincewind]

I wonder how many of the young men (many under age) knew beforehand what the conditions were going to be like at the Somme (1914-18) All they kne is what they were told by recruiting officers going around the country visiting factories and schools. They were told that their country needed them, our side had better weapons and they would be home in tiime for Christmas.

Did they know they were going to be sleeping in three feet of mud? I doubt it. They were told to get on with it and anyone suffering mental stress were classed as cowards and sometimes shot by a firing squad.

It is only in recent years that the Government has recognised PTSD for what it is. The army top brass still frowns on it saying if they are OK when drawing up battle strategy then then men in their regiment should jolly well be OK too.

Flowolf I may have wrongly assumed you had the same thinking as one or two other posters. Things are a lot different now of course to WW! that I mentioned above. There is more coverage but a lot is still hidden about what actually goes on I would imagine. Sometimes you would need more strength mentally to realise that the forces are not for you and whatever problems in civvy street you face solve them. For some the army is kind of running away but it is only changing one kind of stress for another.

Well that's the way I see it as an outsider.

Edited 4 November 2012 by Nightguard

[MooseBreath]

If there's one place that should be totally ring fenced from our increasing softly softly mummy-state approach to absolutely everything then it's the military.

[ADK]

Do you think its a good idea for military personnel to be going around with guns while mentally ill?

[flowwolf]

I wonder how many of the young men (many under age) knew beforehand what the conditions were going to be like at the Somme (1914-18) All they kne is what they were told by recruiting officers going around the country visiting factories and schools. They were told that their country needed them, our side had better weapons and they would be home in tiime for Christmas.

Did they know they were going to be sleeping in three feet of mud? I doubt it. They were told to get on with it and anyone suffering mental stress were classed as cowards and sometimes shot by a firing squad.

It is only in recent years that the Government has recognised PTSD for what it is. The army top brass still frowns on it saying if they are OK when drawing up battle strategy then then men in their regiment should jolly well be OK too.

Agreed but we have come a long way since those days. They did not have tv footage as we do now of Iraq, Afghanistan, N'Ireland . Unless you have been hiding away from the press, or do not have a T.V it is pretty hard to understand why someone should not understand the risks of joining the armed forces. After all we all do risk assessments every time we cross the road surely you can't join the Army without doing your own risk assessment. I think it all goes back to that old way of thinking that I am responsible for my own actions, something that seems sadly lacking today, it's always someone else's fault.

[MooseBreath]

Do you think its a good idea for military personnel to be going around with guns while mentally ill?

No not at all. That's why you don't let mentally ill people into the military.

[Guest Col city fan]

Do you think its a good idea for military personnel to be going around with guns while mentally ill?

I was under the impression (I could be wrong) that the military have their own mental health services?

And before anyone says 'yes but not enough of them', that's the case per se, not only in the military.

[MooseBreath]

I am responsible for my own actions, something that seems sadly lacking today, it's always someone else's fault.

so true

[Rincewind]

I have always said you don't have to be mad to join the army but it helps.

The army have the Catch 22 clause.

Edited 4 November 2012 by Nightguard

[flowwolf]

Do you think its a good idea for military personnel to be going around with guns while mentally ill?

Personally I knew several military personnel with mental health problems , they were the ones who won the medals.

[Guest Col city fan]

No not at all. That's why you don't let mentally ill people into the military.

This post is so naive Moosey it's laughable.

1. Kids entering the military can hide any symptoms they may have/had.

2. What about those that develop a mental illness having joined up? Are they gonna be picked up?

[flowwolf]

I was under the impression (I could be wrong) that the military have their own mental health services?

And before anyone says 'yes but not enough of them', that's the case per se, not only in the military.

Yes col they do. The problem is that no one wasn't to admit they have mental health issues and so hide it until something pushes them over the edge, which if that happens during active service can lead to suicide or the death of innocents.

[MooseBreath]

This post is so naive Moosey it's laughable.

1. Kids entering the military can hide any symptoms they may have/had.

2. What about those that develop a mental illness having joined up? Are they gonna be picked up?

I would have thought they do a few tests prior to joining, and also isn't the whole idea of the long, tough training camps to make sure soldiers are ready for combat?

Might be naive, I don't know, I've never been in the military, but failing to ensure your recruits are mentally stable would seem a startling omission

Edited 4 November 2012 by MooseBreath

[flowwolf]

I would have thought they do a few tests prior to joining, and also isn't the whole idea of the long, tough training camps to make sure soldiers are ready for combat?

Might be naive, I don't know, I've never been in the military, but failing to ensure your recruits are mentally stable would seem a startling omission

That is true Moose but mental health issues rears it's head when under extreme pressure or personal trauma of seeing your mates killed and even worse of living with the fact that you have killed others. Mix that up with anger hatred of what you may have become and detachment from reality and there you have it. No amount of mental health vetting on joining the army could detect that.

Edited 4 November 2012 by flowwolf

[Rincewind]

I would imagine being in a barrack room full of he-men squaddies would put someone off asking them for help. Would any of them put an arm around them in front of their squaddie mates? Would the RSM excuse him from a 30 mile exercise? I would say thge symptons of a breakdown would not be obvious to the normal squaddie. After all they did not join up to be a psychiatric nurse..

The ones that do would be living in a different part of the army base or elsewhere.

[flowwolf]

I'm out - it's like communicating with Col City on Mephedrone.

Run Rabbit. Though no doubt you will be back like the Spanish flu.

Edited 4 November 2012 by flowwolf

[flowwolf]

I would imagine being in a barrack room full of he-men squaddies would put someone off asking them for help. Would any of them put an arm around them in front of their squaddie mates? Would the RSM excuse him from a 30 mile exercise? I would say thge symptons of a breakdown would not be obvious to the normal squaddie. After all they did not join up to be a psychiatric nurse..

The ones that do would be living in a different part of the army base or elsewhere.

Spot on mate :thumbup:

[Guest Col city fan]

That is true Moose but mental health issues rears it's head when under extreme pressure or personal trauma of seeing your mates killed and even worse of living with the fact that you have killed others. Mix that up with anger hatred of what you may have become and detachment from reality and there you have it. No amount of mental health vetting on joining the army could detect that.

Good post Flowy...

Most mental conditions become apparent under stress, moreso with extreme stress of course.

It's quite likely that a number of kids won't even know they are susceptible until they are put under such stress.

Edited 4 November 2012 by Col city fan

[flowwolf]

Good post Flowy...

Most mental conditions become apparent under stress, moreso with extreme stress of course.

It's quite likely that a number of kids won't even know they are susceptible until they are put under such stress.

The thing is col statistically most don't know they have P.T.S.D until they leave the Army. They find it very hard adjusting back to civy street as it is , this just escalates the already underlying problems they don't know they have .

Edited 4 November 2012 by flowwolf

[Rincewind]

That's what I was saying. I think I started this topic off when I said many homeless were ex-army and someone said it was rubbish. The stats are around somewhere and I have contacts that can supply them. It is improving because there is a different approach. As well as helping them they can find ways of getting back their self belief. Sometimes a little more than a push in the right direction is needed.

Just starting to watch Apocalypse Now on ITV4. Martin Sheen and Marlon Brando. Not seen it for a while although war films are not my favourite genre. This one is a little diffent. Probably the best is All Quiet On The Western Front.

[Reynard Bleu]

My biggest fear on active service was letting my mates down, you pushed some of the fear and the stress to the side and tried to do what was expected of you. To make sure your mates could rely on you. After a contact you were either buzzing from the adrenaline rush or on your chinstrap with fatigue, either one could hide the emotional turmoil that you felt. Nobody I know who survived a big contact was the same afterwards. If you took casualties it was dreadful, you felt you neded to escape but on the other hand you didnt want to be anywhere else except with your mates because only they understood howyou felt. Those on their 2nd or 3rd tour behaved differently to those on their first.The look in their eyes was different. 6 months of living in FOB in uncomfortable, insanitary and dangerous conditions wears down even the toughest Tom. I and most others who served in Telic or Herrick are changed people forever. Some unfortunately, find recovery a difficult or even impossible process. In reality, few have a 'good' war.

[FoxyPV]

Anyone who participates in or condones honour killings / beatings.