Absolute *** of our time Pt.MXXVI

[sphericalfox]

So all the people who bought a house then or bought their council house are worse off than they were?You don't mix with a lot of working class people do you?

If you compare the amount of debt they have now to the debt they had then, then I'd say better off, whilst arguably is an objective term, is about true.

Oh and Webbo, considering I come from working class family, and see for myself the amount of debt hanging over people making them miserable, then I'd it's fair to make a generalisation. You and fluwank must have missed all those 'homeowner loan' adverts on telly and radio during the late 80\s and throughout the 90's encouraging these now asset 'rich' individuals to prop up the economy by buying and wasting their money on frivolous shite with nothing to show for it but an high interest overdraft and a strangulating mortgage.

[Webbo]

If you compare the amount of debt they have now to the debt they had then, then I'd say better off, whilst arguably is an objective term, is about true.

Oh and Webbo, considering I come from working class family, and see for myself the amount of debt hanging over people making them miserable, then I'd it's fair to make a generalisation. You and fluwank must have missed all those 'homeowner loan' adverts on telly and radio during the late 80\s and throughout the 90's encouraging these now asset 'rich' individuals to prop up the economy by buying and wasting their money on frivolous shite with nothing to show for it but an high interest overdraft and a strangulating mortgage.

If you bought your house in the 80s there is a good chance that you've either paid off your mortgage or moved to a bigger/better house and your assets will be worth more than they were then.

People wasting their money on frivolous shite has nothing to do with buying a house. I watch the same ads as everyone else and I don't have massive debts, a high interest overdraft and my mortgage has never been cheaper.

[sphericalfox]

If you bought your house in the 80s there is a good chance that you've either paid off your mortgage or moved to a bigger/better house and your assets will be worth more than they were then.

People wasting their money on frivolous shite has nothing to do with buying a house. I watch the same ads as everyone else and I don't have massive debts, a high interest overdraft and my mortgage has never been cheaper.

clap clap for you.

I imagine you think you are average joe then? The rest of us must be imagining the tremendous amount of debt we all have then.

The trouble is your rosey picture of what that government did is false. Whilst selling off the council housing, the councils were encouraged to double the rents for the rest of the majority still renting, creating thousands of homeless who couldn't afford these costs. Good old Tories looking after the common man! These new 80's homeowners felt the need to reciprocate the 'favour' by voting for the Tories for this great deed.

I noticed that you skipped over the fact that the councils never got the proceeds of these sales, what are your thoughts on this bit of blooper?

[Webbo]

clap clap for you.

I imagine you think you are average joe then? The rest of us must be imagining the tremendous amount of debt we all have then.

The trouble is your rosey picture of what that government did is false. Whilst selling off the council housing, the councils were encouraged to double the rents for the rest of the majority still renting, creating thousands of homeless who couldn't afford these costs. Good old Tories looking after the common man! These new 80's homeowners felt the need to reciprocate the 'favour' by voting for the Tories for this great deed.

I noticed that you skipped over the fact that the councils never got the proceeds of these sales, what are your thoughts on this bit of blooper?

I'm way above average.

[Zingari]

I'm way above average.

Surely you can see the point that Spherical is making regarding the sale of council houses though.

Yes , the individuals who bought the houses at the time got a good deal , but it was nothing less than a bribe that robbed future generations of quality affordable rented accommodation because the money was not reinvested for the purpose it should have been.

I’m not blaming the individual homebuyers for doing it. They can’t have known the ulterior motives .

[Webbo]

Surely you can see the point that Spherical is making regarding the sale of council houses though.

Yes , the individuals who bought the houses at the time got a good deal , but it was nothing less than a bribe that robbed future generations of quality affordable rented accommodation because the money was not reinvested for the purpose it should have been.

I’m not blaming the individual homebuyers for doing it. They can’t have known the ulterior motives .

You can argue that most things govts do are bribes with other people's money. "If we get in we'll put up your welfare payments/ we'll invent 100,000 public sector jobs/we'll give money to your pressure group.

[Zingari]

You can argue that most things govts do are bribes with other people's money. "If we get in we'll put up your welfare payments/ we'll invent 100,000 public sector jobs/we'll give money to your pressure group.

That's very true of course , but maybe sometimes we have to (reluctantly) admit that we shafted our future generations by falling for the the Thatcher grab it and flog it mentality of the time and how it would impact on them .

I admit to taking some of advantages given to us at the time in the sell offs to make some quick bucks and i must admit to being a bit ashamed of my short sightedness now.( even though individually I couldn't have really affected anything)

The difference being that we the people , didn't know what the ulterior motives were at the time . Thatcher and her gov. must have done .

[Webbo]

That's very true of course , but maybe sometimes we have to (reluctantly) admit that we shafted our future generations by falling for the the Thatcher grab it and flog it mentality of the time and how it would impact on them .

I admit to taking some of advantages given to us at the time in the sell offs to make some quick bucks and i must admit to being a bit ashamed of my short sightedness now.( even though individually I couldn't have really affected anything)

The difference being that we the people , didn't know what the ulterior motives were at the time . Thatcher and her gov. must have done .

You're assuming that there was an ulterior motive other than being elected.

[sphericalfox]

You're assuming that there was an ulterior motive other than being elected.

You don't get off the gravy train if you can get an upgrade to first class!

[Webbo]

You don't get off the gravy train if you can get an upgrade to first class!

No, you're a bit too subtle for me. I don't understand what you're talking about.

[sphericalfox]

No, you're a bit too subtle for me. I don't understand what you're talking about.

I've never seen you pretending to be stupid before. This is a first!

Edited 10 November 2012 by sphericalfox

[Zingari]

You're assuming that there was an ulterior motive other than being elected.

I’d say the most obvious ulterior motive was to get the golden egg laying publicly owned geese into the grasping hands of private individuals, and we the people have played our part by being led by the nose and delivering it to them on a plate.

Admit it, we’ve been suckers .

[Webbo]

I’d say the most obvious ulterior motive was to get the golden egg laying publicly owned geese into the grasping hands of private individuals, and we the people have played our part by being led by the nose and delivering it to them on a plate.

Admit it, we’ve been suckers .

We're private individuals as well. If you buy your council house at a discounted rate then it's you and your family who's gained not some evil capitalist.

Edited 10 November 2012 by Webbo

[sphericalfox]

We're private individuals as well. If you buy your council house at a discounted rate then it's you and your family who's gained not some evil capitalist.

Do you think those people bought them with magic beans? The banks benefited grossly from mortgages, interest, defaults, and loans against the newly acquired assets. The banks not being public organisations, I'd say these good natured and selfless companies probably aren't cvnts, but then again....

Again you skirt around the issue, that the money gained form these sales went back into the pot to lower the taxes for the rich, who by default probably aren't cvnty cronies of the cvnty government of the time...or are they?

[Webbo]

Do you think those people bought them with magic beans? The banks benefited grossly from mortgages, interest, defaults, and loans against the newly acquired assets. The banks not being public organisations, I'd say these good natured and selfless companies probably aren't cvnts, but then again....

Again you skirt around the issue, that the money gained form these sales went back into the pot to lower the taxes for the rich, who by default probably aren't cvnty cronies of the cvnty government of the time...or are they?

Did you buy your house for cash or something?Banks make money from selling loans, there's no secret about that, you haven't exposed some secret capitalist plot. If banks didn't lend money I'd have been paying rent for the last 20 years and have nothing to show for it.

Now when the time comes I can downsize and have a bit of money for my old age or leave some money to my kids.Oh what a fool I've been. I'd have been so much better off living on a council estate.

[sphericalfox]

Did you buy your house for cash or something?Banks make money from selling loans, there's no secret about that, you haven't exposed some secret capitalist plot. If banks didn't lend money I'd have been paying rent for the last 20 years and have nothing to show for it.

Now when the time comes I can downsize and have a bit of money for my old age or leave some money to my kids.Oh what a fool I've been. I'd have been so much better off living on a council estate.

Are deliberately missing my point? You claim there was no ulterior motive other than looking after the people. There was an ulterior motive (s). Gaining votes to keep in power so they could dismantle and privatise the country, so either the corporate boards they sat on, or would soon sit on, could benefit richly from their financially supported corporate agenda. If you are so naive to say it isn't so, this conversation/discussion is over. This is modern politics across ALL political parties. However, the Tories had it down to a fine art, and regardless of whether people had the opportunity to buy a house, ultimately they paid for it and are still paying for it through high taxes, extortionate pricing for their utilities, and privatised transport.

[Webbo]

Are deliberately missing my point? You claim there was no ulterior motive other than looking after the people. There was an ulterior motive (s). Gaining votes to keep in power so they could dismantle and privatise the country, so either the corporate boards they sat on, or would soon sit on, could benefit richly from their financially supported corporate agenda. If you are so naive to say it isn't so, this conversation/discussion is over. This is modern politics across ALL political parties. However, the Tories had it down to a fine art, and regardless of whether people had the opportunity to buy a house, ultimately they paid for it and are still paying for it through high taxes, extortionate pricing for their utilities, and privatised transport.

There is a lot of rewriting of history on these boards. The nationalised industries were not , as some would have you believe, cheap, efficient and popular. They weren't, they were inefficient, overmanned, constantly striking ,expensive monopolies and like all monopolies they gave a like it or lump it service.The privatised industries have had to invest billions in the infra structure since taking over and they quite rightly want a return on their money. There are govt panels which set prices so they cannot profiteer. The service we receive now is far superior to what it was despite what anyone tells you.

Also taxes went down under Mrs Thatcher for everyone including the working class.

[sphericalfox]

There is a lot of rewriting of history on these boards. The nationalised industries were not , as some would have you believe, cheap, efficient and popular. They weren't, they were inefficient, overmanned, constantly striking ,expensive monopolies and like all monopolies they gave a like it or lump it service.The privatised industries have had to invest billions in the infra structure since taking over and they quite rightly want a return on their money. There are govt panels which set prices so they cannot profiteer. The service we receive now is far superior to what it was despite what anyone tells you.

Also taxes went down under Mrs Thatcher for everyone including the working class.

I never said, nor did anyone else say that the transport (for example) was efficient prior to the privatisation of it. What about the utilities? How much do you pay for your gas/electric? Is it a fair price do you think to supplement the pockets of shareholders? What about the monumental waste that the water companies, say they are spending to fix leaky pipes etc, but force us to pay for a commodity for which we are not short of, to any degree?

Thatcher lowered taxes for everyone? Yes this is a fact, however the percentage lowered of the the top rate, made the rich that much more rich. The Tories always play the 'for the people' card, but it's as threadbare and transparent as it always was.

[FoxyPV]

Was the top tax rate under Thatcher not 60%?

[Webbo]

Was the top tax rate under Thatcher not 60%?

When she left office I think it was 40% having been 83% when she came in.

[skinnydipper]

[ADK]

Thatcher stripped the country of assets to bribe the electorate. Selling off council housing cheap may have been good for the occupants at the time but its a one way process. Now we have a shortage of council housing and this is part of the reason the welfare expenditure is so high.

[flowwolf]

Ah so the councils waisted all the revenue from the sale of councils houses. And guess what political party ran the vast majority of those asset stripping councils ? Yes good old working class Labour councils that's who. Why did they not invest that money in building new council accommodation, again ask the LABOUR councils.

What about all those council home owners who now do not have the burden of weekly rent and piss poor maintenance. They now have something to leave their children. And as for people getting themselves in frivolous debt why is that any governments fault ? Have the got no personal responsibilities ? who's fault other than their own. In case there is any mistake on this we live in a capitalist world and that goes for a Labour government too. You want to talk about debt just look at the bloody mess Blair and Brown left this country in.

[sphericalfox]

Ah so the councils waisted all the revenue from the sale of councils houses. And guess what political party ran the vast majority of those asset stripping councils ? Yes good old working class Labour councils that's who. Why did they not invest that money in building new council accommodation, again ask the LABOUR councils.

What about all those council home owners who now do not have the burden of weekly rent and piss poor maintenance. They now have something to leave their children. And as for people getting themselves in frivolous debt why is that any governments fault ? Have the got no personal responsibilities ? who's fault other than their own. In case there is any mistake on this we live in a capitalist world and that goes for a Labour government too. You want to talk about debt just look at the bloody mess Blair and Brown left this country in.

Nobody waisted anything.

However the councils didn't get to receive the monies acquired from the sales of these houses. So your lame attempt to try and blame Labour councils is futile. Again, ask the Thatchershites why they felt the need to reduce needed homes, and replace them with nothing, for future generations of low income families, the likes of which now there are in copious supply due to, again, the Tories privatisation measures, and turning greed into an art form.

[Steven]

Paul Cadman of ETDE

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/10/living-wage-cleaner-clegg