21st November 1974

[Zingari]

I do find that attitude slightly ironic given that, if England hadn't decided to push half the world aside itself, they wouldn't have to be sit pretending to be hard-done-to, underdog victims when the Little Guys turn around and decide enough's enough.

don't you mean Britain ?

[Bazaldo]

Good point. Some of the worst attrocities in history have been done by Britain and her allies. Consider what Cromwell did in Ireland (slaughtered innocents in their 1000s), British in the Boer War (where "we" invented the concentration camp) and of course Britain was involved in the development of the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And of course what Hairy mentioned previously.

Having said that, tit-for-tat reprisals for decades (which is what Sosban means with the UVF and UDA, I assume) just keeps the pot simmering when if it were just left, get on with your lives and they could have had peace (as we see today - at least in most parts of Ireland (I'm sure there must still be pockets. Humans can be very stupid!))

We're just evil bastards.

Could argue it saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Loadsa cases for arguements for and against.

Also a show of power against a steady rising russia who had just declared war on Japan and wanted a slice of the spoils.

So it needed to be ended quick.

Still Japan didn't do too badly out of it. First democracy in their history.

Doesn't condone innocent lives being lost i know but who struck the first blow? Pearl Harbour, innocent sailors trapped in the Arizona. Sleeping in on a sunday.

Also their bushido beliefs meant they would fight until total annihilation.

So not left with many alternatives really.

Oh hello im back

You were begging me to join in i know.

[Finnegan]

Bo bo bo bommmm gone fishing.

It was the British empire, welsh people too.

We're all to blame. Well not personally but we are where we are. Hey ho n all that.

We're a nation of poor workers. I'm not going to stand here and say no Welsh businessman, politician or nobleman had any influence in the Empire but then let's not sit and pretend we really had (or even now have) much of a say, either.

And the point is really the same, it always seems to be the Rule Britannia, imperialist, Jack waving Brits that are the first to adopt the "Little Island underdogs!" attitude. You can't have it both ways, you're either a super power or a nothing nation.

You can't really conquer your weak and unsophisticated neighbours and then pretend to be the hard little terriers punching above your weight when you're given a right slapping back. And do not misunderstand me for a moment, I'm not ever going to stand here and justify a violent bombing campaign against any innocent lives; I'm just merely saying I find the attitude I first quoted to be somewhat obtuse and somewhat inappropriate, really.

[Bazaldo]

We're a nation of poor workers. I'm not going to stand here and say no Welsh businessman, politician or nobleman had any influence in the Empire but then let's not sit and pretend we really had (or even now have) much of a say, either.

And the point is really the same, it always seems to be the Rule Britannia, imperialist, Jack waving Brits that are the first to adopt the "Little Island underdogs!" attitude. You can't have it both ways, you're either a super power or a nothing nation.

You can't really conquer your weak and unsophisticated neighbours and then pretend to be the hard little terriers punching above your weight when you're given a right slapping back. And do not misunderstand me for a moment, I'm not ever going to stand here and justify a violent bombing campaign against any innocent lives; I'm just merely saying I find the attitude I first quoted to be somewhat obtuse and somewhat inappropriate, really.

Hey we don't all cheer for Wales when england aren't playing ya know. Is this because the dragon isn't on the jack? ('tis a joke my friend im not all serious )

We aren't as big as we like to think we are and like anyone we are a proud nation and don't like to lose.

It hurts when we lose, its like a bigger club being knocked out of the FA cup by a minnow. It bloody hurts.

I hate losing, im a born competitor.

N whos the weak and unsophisticated neighbours??

[Thracian]

Tomorrow marks the death of 21 people and the seriously injuring of over 200 who were doing nothing more than having a good night out in Birmingham.

Funny how this kind of thing is often allowed to drift into the background.

Thanks go to fanatics who believed they had the right to inflict pain and suffering on people simply because of an ideological grievance - aren't fanatics wonderful!

Fanaticism is mental sickness caused by a blinkered mind.

My eldest son's father-in-law had his business in Belfast blown up three times by the IRA. He doesn't mention it because everyone in Belfast had their own tragic tale to tell and there came a point when they all had to get on with their lives, rather like British soldiers after the Second World War.

But, while the rubble of The Troubles may have slowly cleared, those involved will never forget and that goes for all those innocents who suffered on mainland Britain as well as in Northern Ireland.

But thanks for reminding me. It was a day that shattered so many lives and one which I know affected some of my later colleagues on the Birmingham Post & Mail very closely and very deeply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_pub_bombings

[Ultra]

The BBC's stories for Birmingham today include:

# Birmingham Labour MP in hospital

# Jarvis targets Stourbridge return

# McLeish thanks national managers

# Bristol double for buoyant Bears

# Penthouse sale nets £1m record

# Ask us about: Music details

# Swansea v Birmingham

# Plane lands with cracked window

# Brummies to reveal latest signing

# Edgbaston homeowners 'must sell'

Not one mention of it.

Shameful.

Maybe they've just moved on. I'm sure Birmingham has suffered other bombings during its history - like in World War 2.

Yet today the Germans are welcomed with open arms, and even hold a street market there in the weeks running up to Christmas.

There is also a large Irish community in Brum that would not need reminding of that day, not least because they were shamefully targeted in the days and weeks following those atrocities, which led to six innocent men spending many years in jail for crimes they did not commit.

[Daggers]

Maybe they've just moved on. I'm sure Birmingham has suffered other bombings during its history - like in World War 2.

Yet today the Germans are welcomed with open arms, and even hold a street market there in the weeks running up to Christmas.

There is also a large Irish community in Brum that would not need reminding of that day, not least because they were shamefully targeted in the days and weeks following those atrocities, which led to six innocent men spending many years in jail for crimes they did not commit.

Yes. You are right.

Let us forget all attrocities commited in days gone by because we all need "to move on".

[Bazaldo]

Maybe they've just moved on. I'm sure Birmingham has suffered other bombings during its history - like in World War 2.

Yet today the Germans are welcomed with open arms, and even hold a street market there in the weeks running up to Christmas.

There is also a large Irish community in Brum that would not need reminding of that day, not least because they were shamefully targeted in the days and weeks following those atrocities, which led to six innocent men spending many years in jail for crimes they did not commit.

You a big fan of morrissey, or was it the Leicester shirt for obvious reasons?

Good singer by the way.

Left high n dry by their own people while the real people who did it waked away scott free to maybe do more damage??

[Ultra]

You a big fan of morrissey, or was it the Leicester shirt for obvious reasons?

Good singer by the way.

As far as I know, it's a mock-up by the Sun. I doubt whether Moz really IS a City fan..

Left high n dry by their own people while the real people who did it waked away scott free to maybe do more damage??

As the provos planned, the vicious backlash against the Irish community caused anger and resentment, and maybe even created sympathy for their cause where none existed previously.

The Irish authorities probably know who really carried out the bombings. Yet they wouldn't extradite them because of the flaws in the English legal system.

[stez]

As far as I know, it's a mock-up by the Sun. I doubt whether Moz really IS a City fan..

As the provos planned, the vicious backlash against the Irish community caused anger and resentment, and maybe even created sympathy for their cause where none existed previously.

The Irish authorities probably know who really carried out the bombings. Yet they wouldn't extradite them because of the flaws in the English legal system.

which is pretty much what islamic extremists are doing now, so that it's muslims vs everyone else and judging by some of the views i've read recently, they're not doing to bad a job