The War in Iraq

[The Year Of The Fox]

I'm sure this topic has been covered on here many times before.

Tonight though, operations and occupation in Iraq ceases entirely,

At the start I was not cynical like most who were thinking we were just after oil. A country of people was living in a dictatorship, where had any of its people protested about anything (as the lefties over here had protested about us going to war) they would have been tied up and killed by government forces. A fact completely overlooked by protestors over here.

Of course, once you have committed forces to action and blood has been shed, you cannot then withdrawl the troops as any lives previously lost would've been in vain.

Thankfully Blair and then Brown continued, and pushed this through. Now thanks to our forces and these two, another country has been liberated and neutralised from any threat that at one time was of major worry to not only ourselves but to the whole of the middle east.

Today marks the end, and hopefully the hundreds of families with soldiers who were killed over there, can at least have some comfort knowing that a good job has finally been done and that their loved ones llives were not in vain.

edit. Should you chose the 'we shouldnt have stuck our noses in' option, then just stop and think about what we'd have felt like had we been living in occupied France during WW2. Or had England been invaded how we'd have felt. We'd have been crying out for help.

[zubi]

Im sure the families of and the 650,000 dead people feel liberated.

[The Year Of The Fox]

To me, thats just propaganda. Once you commit to an action theres always someone who's going to play on it and get stories out of it.

For every story like that there will be a story of an iraqi thanking us for what we've done

[Iwan is a Welshman]

I'm not sure what'd make it 'worth it'. I suppose if we've helped to create a progressive democracy in an unstable part of the world then it would've been worth it.

If we pull out and in ten years time end up back there then it would be harder to justify.

You're right about not pulling out once we'd started. I think the difficulty was the manner in which we went in in the first place. Blair made a complete hash of it. Should've took the U.N. stance. You can tell, with Libya, that we've learnt our lesson on that one. A Prime Minister won't rush us into a war without the support of the international community for a long, long time now.

Regardless I'm pleased to hear that things have reached the point where we can withdraw. You'dve thought more of a fuss would have been made about it in the press.

[The Year Of The Fox]

I'm not sure what'd make it 'worth it'. I suppose if we've helped to create a progressive democracy in an unstable part of the world then it would've been worth it.

If we pull out and in ten years time end up back there then it would be harder to justify.

You're right about not pulling out once we'd started. I think the difficulty was the manner in which we went in in the first place. Blair made a complete hash of it. Should've took the U.N. stance. You can tell, with Libya, that we've learnt our lesson on that one. A Prime Minister won't rush us into a war without the support of the international community for a long, long time now.

Regardless I'm pleased to hear that things have reached the point where we can withdraw. You'dve thought more of a fuss would have been made about it in the press.

The press only like to print bad things. Incidentally, I didn't know it was ryan giggs who's been nobbing that fit imogen thomas- ALLEGEDLEY.

And anyone who was up in arms big time about Iraq back in the day will now be eating humble pie today. Or finding stupid interente sites to still try and justify their own stance.

Hadn't the UN all agreed on action with Libya?

[zubi]

To me, thats just propaganda. Once you commit to an action theres always someone who's going to play on it and get stories out of it.

For every story like that there will be a story of an iraqi thanking us for what we've done

Propaganda? Like how Bush and Blair told the world about Saddam Hussains stock pile of WMD's... so refresh my memory, how many did they find?

Im all for the freedom of the people and the progress of Iraq. But in all honesty wasn't dropping bombs and firing mortars in heavily populated cities excessive?

[The Year Of The Fox]

Propaganda? Like how Bush and Blair told the world about Saddam Hussains stock pile of WMD's... so refresh my memory, how many did they find?

Im all for the freedom of the people and the progress of Iraq. But in all honesty wasn't dropping bombs and firing mortars in heavily populated cities excessive?

None, though I would laugh my tits off if they did one day find some.

I don't know if it was excessive to be fair and I wouldn't like to make that call as I know nothing about tactical wars at high level

[Finnegan]

I don't really give a shit about our motives for going to war, they're done and dusted and whether we agree or not it doesn't change anything.

What generally disgusts me though is the state that we (and the Americans) are leaving the place in. It's like there was absolutely no plan at all to establish security and normalcy in the country after Saddam had been ousted.

And I don't really think we can sit and claim that it's "just propaganda" that countless civilians were lost to carelessness and an inability to distinguish between hostile and civilian targets. There are endless stories ranging from brutality to negligence and while some of them are, no doubt, the product of intentional misinformation from NATO enemies, you'd have to be a complete and total muppet to think that the "enemy" in this instance have more resources for psy-ops than NATO itself. The Americans especially pump absolutely millions and millions in to psychological operations and I imagine very little about the war hits mainstream news without being vetted prior.

And that's without my El Empty hat on.

[ozleicester]

Fookin shambles, should never have been a part of it. The same applies for Libya.

Civil wars are not something others should be involved in, imagine that the outside world looks at the EDL as representative of the English and decides that they need support to over throw the current regime.

[zubi]

Fookin shambles, should never have been a part of it. The same applies for Libya.

Civil wars are not something others should be involved in, imagine that the outside world looks at the EDL as representative of the English and decides that they need support to over throw the current regime.

I agree, forget Iraq for one moment, why dont other countries concentrate on countries like the DR Congo, 400,000 women a year are being raped, gangs walk around harassing bystanders with weapons. If you want to help the world, send your army there. Or to North Korea, a tyrant like Kim Jong Il who doesnt allow basic human necessaties for his own people deserves to be invaded.

[The Doctor]

There is no way the Iraq war was worth it.

Democracy is a wonderful thing and is worth fighting for but Iraq was in a better state under saddam than it is the way we've left it.

Being a cynic i think we probably were just in there for the oil and the WMD's claim was bullshit being used to justify an unnecessary invasion.

Note that we haven't done anything about civil wars in Africa such as the Congo or Ivory Coast. Why not?

[DB11]

I don't know. That should be an option

[FoxyPV]

Stu - if you think destabilising the entire region, bringing to the fore sectarian hatred, destroying Iraq as a nation state, causing directly and indirectly the deaths and casualities of nearly a million people, wasting £10s/100s of billions, and destroying the name of the UK (it was bad beforehand) across the world worthwhile then you're a mug.

[Christoph]

Probably shouldnt have, the money could have been better spent elsewhere but ah well..

[The Year Of The Fox]

I take it you classed that region and iraq itself under sadaam as stable then?

If so your the mug

[Finnegan]

I take it you classed that region and iraq itself under sadaam as stable then?

If so your the mug

It was a hell of a lot better than it is now. My aunt's partner is Iraqi and like many he loathed Saddam but he'd tell you how good the infrastructure was there, compared to now. They had fantastic hospitals and universities, now the country's just chaos.

Oh, and as a silly aside:

[FoxyPV]

I take it you classed that region and iraq itself under sadaam as stable then?

If so your the mug

Saddam may have been an absolute mentalist who was fond of testing out chemical weapons on certain sections of his population but post - Saddam Iraq is a much much worse.

The fact that nearly a million people have been injured or killed since the invasion began sort of speaks for itself.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Its not much worse though. Thats the thing. Where the posters on here have got the notion that its worse I don't know.

All soldiers-not occupying forces- but soldiers who were training their forces to be self sufficient and to look after themselves. Baghdad airport is open, you can get flights there from here.

Markets are prospering once again. They live in a free country again.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Didnt see the poster speaking about his relative.

The foundations have been laid for iraq to become a normal country again.

[Guest Bilo]

What's worst about the invasion is that not only has it destroyed much infrastructure in Iraq, but it has also caused an enormous upsurge in sectarianism and Islamic extremism in what was under Saddam Hussein one of the most secular countries in the entire Middle East. Iraq was one of the few countries in the Middle East that had sweet FA to do with al-Qaeda, indeed Islamic extremists hated the Ba'ath regime for its lack of religious basis, but it has now become one of the hotbeds. It hasn't improved our safety as we can see by the attacks of 7/7 were the perpetrators were radicalised largely by their opposition to the Iraq war being manipulated and the average Iraqi is no better off than they were before.

That you can take a flight there is great, but good luck getting through a week in Baghdad or Mosul without getting shot at. The only part of Iraq that is remotely safe for Westerners these days is Kurdistan to the north.

[Finnegan]

The only part of Iraq that is remotely safe for Westerners these days is Kurdistan to the north.

Thank you, Top Gear!

[Guest Bilo]

Thank you, Top Gear!

I knew that before that episode, I'm just that cool.

Joking aside though, wasn't Kurdistan reasonably safe for Westerners before the war in Iraq due to the military restrictions imposed by the UN after the Gulf War?

[The Year Of The Fox]

I have great faith in HM Forces in that they would not leave until it was acceptable to do so. Fine the country is not perfect. But i'd expect that in countries that until recentley have known nothing but dictatorship.

[Finnegan]

The armed forces are just a tool. They're like a computer, they might show signs of intelligence in problem solving but ultimately they only do as they are commanded.

They would leave, and are leaving, Iraq in a total mess if the government order them to do so.

[zubi]

Iraq Veterans against the war.

Lets be honest, people like you and me know fu** all about the country unless we've been there and done that.

The only judgement we can make is by watching the news and seeing the pictures and making up our own minds, well in my opinion we fu*** up a country and murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.