Northern Ireland

[FoxyPV]

So because you consider N.Ireland another country it becomes fact instead of opinion. You will be implying the Isle of White is French next. While I totally agree with the futility of sectarianism which you pointed out very well you have to understand that the majority of the people in N.Ireland want to stay as part of the uk as is their guaranteed democratic right. This latest concession to the republicans about only flying the union jack on special occasions at Belfast hall is seen by the majority as another step towards capitulation and eventual unification with the South. In my opinion the loyalist have already seen what happens if you go down that route with the appointment of two I.R.A murderers masquerading as politicians and they are in no mood to stand for any more. A return to the dark days are just a step away only this time we will not see the introduction of British troops on the streets of Ulster again.

Absolute drivel.

The Free State does not want NI. It relinquished its claim to NI under the Good Friday Agreement.

I would agree with you in saying the majority of people would like to see NI remain within the UK and I include those from a catholic background in this because we share much more culturally with the UK than we do with down south and a trip across the border proves just that. The UK offers much more in the future than joining the South and the Euro.

The loyalists want to have their cake and eat it. They have been used to doing exactly the same thing that happened in City Hall last week for decades and they don't like when democracy does not go their way. Belfast City Council is now a nationalist council and they won the vote in the chamber to have this passed. It was concession to the Unionist fraternity by the Alliance to have the Union flag flying AT ALL over City hall.

BTW the Union flag only flies over Stormont (the seat of devolved power) on a limited number of days a year, so why the big fuss?

We will never see troops back on the streets of NI again because the factors that caused the Troubles to start are just not there. For all loyalists grumbling, there is not the institutionalised discrimination that there was then and it is their leaders who have sold them down the river through their ineffectual leadership, internal bickering and moves to the centre ground.

The rioting of recent nights has been mainly kids with nothing to do, who find it a bit of fun and who have been instigated to do it by loyalists as they know the cops are pretty much powerless to do anything against them.

[Finnegan]

Uhm, Northern Ireland and Scotland ARE different countries.

That's not opinion it's fact.

They're both member nations of the sovereign state and political union known as Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[flowwolf]

Absolute drivel.

The Free State does not want NI. It relinquished its claim to NI under the Good Friday Agreement.

I would agree with you in saying the majority of people would like to see NI remain within the UK and I include those from a catholic background in this because we share much more culturally with the UK than we do with down south and a trip across the border proves just that. The UK offers much more in the future than joining the South and the Euro.

The loyalists want to have their cake and eat it. They have been used to doing exactly the same thing that happened in City Hall last week for decades and they don't like when democracy does not go their way. Belfast City Council is now a nationalist council and they won the vote in the chamber to have this passed. It was concession to the Unionist fraternity by the Alliance to have the Union flag flying AT ALL over City hall.

BTW the Union flag only flies over Stormont (the seat of devolved power) on a limited number of days a year, so why the big fuss?

We will never see troops back on the streets of NI again because the factors that caused the Troubles to start are just not there. For all loyalists grumbling, there is not the institutionalised discrimination that there was then and it is their leaders who have sold them down the river through their ineffectual leadership, internal bickering and moves to the centre ground.

The rioting of recent nights has been mainly kids with nothing to do, who find it a bit of fun and who have been instigated to do it by loyalists as they know the cops are pretty much powerless to do anything against them.

Absolute drivel eh ? Being so dismissive does not make your point any stronger especially when you go on to say " I agree with you etc " not quite so absolute then ? As N.Ireland is still a part of the UK by democratic design the people of N.Ireland have every right to have the Union Jack flying over their local government offices as do all local councils in the UK. Wether the council is nationalist or not has no bearing on that fact, as you said. so why the big fuss not to fly it ? If they get away with yet another concession what next the flying of the Tri colour because the council is run by republicans ? Try going to Dublin and tell them not to fly the Tri Colour over their Hall because it might up set any protestants living there.

As for the so called Good Friday agreement it was nothing more than a blue print for future unification with the South by the use of stealth and long time scale.Hence allowing murdering terrorists to become legitimate politicians to help smooth the way. Do you really think the IRA have given up their claim to a united Ireland ?. So what exactly do the so called nationalist ( republican ) council object to with the flying of their own ( N.Ireland) national flag if it means so little to them ? I presume they had to take an oath to the state before they could become a councillor ?

And again with all respects if you think this latest episode is just about kids with nothing to do then you are sadly mistaken.

[flowwolf]

Uhm, Northern Ireland and Scotland ARE different countries.

That's not opinion it's fact.

They're both member nations of the sovereign state and political union known as Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

By country I meant not seeing N.Ireland as a foreign country no more than I do Scotland or Wales all of which are still part of the UK. Sorry if it came over different to that.

[Finnegan]

By country I meant not seeing N.Ireland as a foreign country no more than I do Scotland or Wales all of which are still part of the UK. Sorry if it came over different to that.

Uh, a moment ago you were criticising someone claiming they were passing off opinion as to what is and isn't a country as fact.

Who cares how you "see" Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales if you want to discuss actual political, legal or historic status for these places?

It's q different country and has as much a different culture as the Isle of Wight does to France.

[FoxyPV]

Absolute drivel eh ? Being so dismissive does not make your point any stronger especially when you go on to say " I agree with you etc " not quite so absolute then ? As N.Ireland is still a part of the UK by democratic design the people of N.Ireland have every right to have the Union Jack flying over their local government offices as do all local councils in the UK. Wether the council is nationalist or not has no bearing on that fact, as you said. so why the big fuss not to fly it ? If they get away with yet another concession what next the flying of the Tri colour because the council is run by republicans ? Try going to Dublin and tell them not to fly the Tri Colour over their Hall because it might up set any protestants living there.

As for the so called Good Friday agreement it was nothing more than a blue print for future unification with the South by the use of stealth and long time scale.Hence allowing murdering terrorists to become legitimate politicians to help smooth the way. Do you really think the IRA have given up their claim to a united Ireland ?. So what exactly do the so called nationalist ( republican ) council object to with the flying of their own ( N.Ireland) national flag if it means so little to them ? I presume they had to take an oath to the state before they could become a councillor ?

And again with all respects if you think this latest episode is just about kids with nothing to do then you are sadly mistaken.

The bit I highlighted is absolutel drivel.

I don't think it is a big deal to fly the flag one way or another. The people who are making it a big deal are those on the streets protesting, when as I stated above that the Union flag only flies over government buildings on certain days of the year, to no protests whatsoever.

The is no flag for NI. The red cross on a white background with the star, crown and red hand is a loyalist flag.

The protestatns down south are Irish. There is not a widescale question of over national identity down south linked to cultural background.

There may be a gradual movement towards unification but it won't happen in my lifetime at least as the public and politicians down south have a much worse attitude to SF than the most ardent loyalists in the North. They openly call them murderers and terrorists. and want little to do with them.

The South doesn't want the North.

As far as I know, SF councillors take an oath which omits an allegiance to the British state or the monarchy.

The kids are ones throwing bricks, stones and fireworks and because of this it is much harder for the police to react with force. This tactic is used by both sides. The violence is being orchestrated by loyalist groups whilst the adults are taking part in the peaceful protests which are causing major havoc on the roads.

[flowwolf]

Uh, a moment ago you were criticising someone claiming they were passing off opinion as to what is and isn't a country as fact.

Who cares how you "see" Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales if you want to discuss actual political, legal or historic status for these places?

It's q different country and has as much a different culture as the Isle of Wight does to France.

As is Ulster to Southern Ireland. the difference being one is part of the uk the other is a foreign country.

[flowwolf]

The bit I highlighted is absolutel drivel.

I don't think it is a big deal to fly the flag one way or another. The people who are making it a big deal are those on the streets protesting, when as I stated above that the Union flag only flies over government buildings on certain days of the year, to no protests whatsoever.

The is no flag for NI. The red cross on a white background with the star, crown and red hand is a loyalist flag.

The protestatns down south are Irish. There is not a widescale question of over national identity down south linked to cultural background.

There may be a gradual movement towards unification but it won't happen in my lifetime at least as the public and politicians down south have a much worse attitude to SF than the most ardent loyalists in the North. They openly call them murderers and terrorists. and want little to do with them.

The South doesn't want the North.

As far as I know, SF councillors take an oath which omits an allegiance to the British state or the monarchy.

The kids are ones throwing bricks, stones and fireworks and because of this it is much harder for the police to react with force. This tactic is used by both sides. The violence is being orchestrated by loyalist groups whilst the adults are taking part in the peaceful protests which are causing major havoc on the roads.

There is a flag for N.Ireland it's called the Union Jack as part of the UK. The people making the big fuss about the flying of the union jack are are those councillors ( republicans ) who by omitting to take the oath to the British state and the monarchy have no right to office in the first place.

Ask yourself if it is such a trivial thing with no importance why the Republican councillors want to change a long standing tradition as flying the union jack in the first place ? it's not as if Belfast is not part of the uk or the capital of N.Ireland is it. I really would like you to answer that one as I feel we will be getting a bit nearer as to the real reason those councillors want to ride roughshod of the wishes of the majority of the electorate. Oh and I still don't buy your argument that it is just kids causing the trouble, there are a lot of angry people in Belfast at the moment and that needs to be addressed before it's too late.

[FoxyPV]

There is a flag for N.Ireland it's called the Union Jack as part of the UK. The people making the big fuss about the flying of the union jack are are those councillors ( republicans ) who by omitting to take the oath to the British state and the monarchy have no right to office in the first place.

Ask yourself if it is such a trivial thing with no importance why the Republican councillors want to change a long standing tradition as flying the union jack in the first place ? it's not as if Belfast is not part of the uk or the capital of N.Ireland is it. I really would like you to answer that one as I feel we will be getting a bit nearer as to the real reason those councillors want to ride roughshod of the wishes of the majority of the electorate. Oh and I still don't buy your argument that it is just kids causing the trouble, there are a lot of angry people in Belfast at the moment and that needs to be addressed before it's too late.

The republicans are responding to their beliefs and have exercised their democratic right in getting something changed. The majority of the electorate in Belfast have voted for parties who have supported this decision or else the motion wouldn't have passed.

Personally I don't give a fiddlers what flag flies over city hall and for how many days a year.

The Union flag is the flag for Great Britain and NI as a whole, not solely NI.

There are many angry people in Belfast and across the province but the ones rioting are kids. The ones participating in peaceful protest are adults.

[flowwolf]

The republicans are responding to their beliefs and have exercised their democratic right in getting something changed. The majority of the electorate in Belfast have voted for parties who have supported this decision or else the motion wouldn't have passed.

Personally I don't give a fiddlers what flag flies over city hall and for how many days a year.

The Union flag is the flag for Great Britain and NI as a whole, not solely NI.

There are many angry people in Belfast and across the province but the ones rioting are kids. The ones participating in peaceful protest are adults.

And the rioters are responding to their beliefs. As I asked before what exactly IS their belief in banning the flying of the union Jack except on special occasions that they will nominate? again I ask what is their ulterior motive ?

Their democratic rights obviously do not go as far as taking the oath of allegiance which is the basis of all democracies across the world, therefore quite rightly the electorate in Ulster have every right to ask who are these people to tell them when and where they can fly their own countries flag. These people have no right to sit as councillors in the first place their tenure of office is null and void on legal grounds alone.

The only good thing to come out of this is now that they have shown their true colours and have absolutely no chance of being re elected. They masqueraded as a middle party to get protestant votes but now the mask is well and truly off.

[Vacamion]

And the rioters are responding to their beliefs. As I asked before what exactly IS their belief in banning the flying of the union Jack except on special occasions that they will nominate? again I ask what is their ulterior motive ?

Their democratic rights obviously do not go as far as taking the oath of allegiance which is the basis of all democracies across the world, therefore quite rightly the electorate in Ulster have every right to ask who are these people to tell them when and where they can fly their own countries flag. These people have no right to sit as councillors in the first place their tenure of office is null and void on legal grounds alone.

The only good thing to come out of this is now that they have shown their true colours and have absolutely no chance of being re elected. They masqueraded as a middle party to get protestant votes but now the mask is well and truly off.

Wolfo,

Rioters are rioting, not 'responding to their beliefs'. At least not responding legitimately and certainly not in a way that commands respect.

Your argument seems to be 'If you don't conform to my views, you are a worthless traitor and should be deprived of your democratic rights'.

That's not an argument.

[Oxfordfox83]

And the rioters are responding to their beliefs. As I asked before what exactly IS their belief in banning the flying of the union Jack except on special occasions that they will nominate? again I ask what is their ulterior motive ?

Their democratic rights obviously do not go as far as taking the oath of allegiance which is the basis of all democracies across the world, therefore quite rightly the electorate in Ulster have every right to ask who are these people to tell them when and where they can fly their own countries flag. These people have no right to sit as councillors in the first place their tenure of office is null and void on legal grounds alone.

The only good thing to come out of this is now that they have shown their true colours and have absolutely no chance of being re elected. They masqueraded as a middle party to get protestant votes but now the mask is well and truly off.

For my money, FoxyPV seems to have it spot on. Democracy is what has led them to change the flag flying rules. I'm honestly surprised they have the power to do so, but if they do then fine. Democracy is generally arse anyway, as Churchill observed, we just haven't found anything better yet.

The eloquent reasons FPV is spelling out seem to capture the reality, which is that reunification is nigh on impossible, as there's no appetite aside from disaffected Scots, a few old hacks and indolent youths. Unfortunately, getting worked up about something essentially trivial (flag-flying aids not goon to change anyone's existence) is what leads to all the trouble in the first place.

[flowwolf]

Yes but no one so far in this thread has answered my question, why do they want to change things in the first place ? if flag flying is so trivial why don't they choose to ignore it ? again I ask what is their reason to want to change. I don't suppose I will get an honest answer to that one or is it more simple that only they know what their motives are.

[flowwolf]

Wolfo,

Rioters are rioting, not 'responding to their beliefs'. At least not responding legitimately and certainly not in a way that commands respect.

Your argument seems to be 'If you don't conform to my views, you are a worthless traitor and should be deprived of your democratic rights'.

That's not an argument.

Vaca my argument is that those responcible for this farce are not democratic at all, their refusal to swear an oath of allegiance is tantamount to not recognising the very institution that they now weald such power in. The swearing of the oath is exactly there to root out traitors and are part of the rules before you can take office, so why were they allowed to take office in the first place?

Make no mistake sinn fein are behind all of this and as we all know they are the political wing of the I.R.A, and we all know how democratic the I.R.A are. That is the real reason for all of this. The so called nationalist community find the flying of the union Jack offensive so as soon as they get enough people elected ( all be it illegally ) they decide to do what they have always wanted to do. If they get away with this how long do you think it will be before they ban the flying of the union jack anywhere and at anytime ? I think you know the answer to that one.

The protestant community know this is the thin edge of the wedge. They have had to stomache seeing two murdering I.R.A commanders being accepted as M.P's both of whom like the councilors refused to take any oath. For goodnes sake politicians in this country are being jailed for fiddling expenses while to known murderers are allowed to take public office, If thats democracy you can sick it.

[Guest MattP]

Vaca my argument is that those responcible for this farce are not democratic at all, their refusal to swear an oath of allegiance is tantamount to not recognising the very institution that they now weald such power in. The swearing of the oath is exactly there to root out traitors and are part of the rules before you can take office, so why were they allowed to take office in the first place?

Can't argue with that, no idea how they got away with it.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Religion

I honestly think religion has little to do with it; it's just a coverall, an excuse - saying god wants this to happen therefore it must. Started off as a religious thing, but as I see it it's just too many people can't put the past behind them and blood begets blood."You killed ma pappy, so I must kill yours" and of course when the act of revenge is completed then that too must be avenged by the otherside... and so on and so forth.

What I really don't understand is this:

The Republic of Ireland isn't crowded, so if you want Irish governance for Irish people and sod all to do with Britain then go. You can live in a Irish homeland, it's called Ireland. Ireland was divided up because these people couldn't agree which state they wanted ruling them - and I can understand Irish people of those times hating, REALLY, REALLY, hating the British/English, we were absolute gits to them as we have been to many nations - but it seems to me that a choice was made, a deal was done and then a load of Irish people changed their minds. It is tradition that sees the republicans supported by the Catholics and the "unionists" ( I use the term loosely since I can't ever remember any British government or Monarch saying, "well done, we're really pleased you're keeping the flag flying over there!") by the Protestants. In much the same way I can't imagine Jesus saying, "well done boys, how many people did you kill in my name today?"

At the end of the day, the Irish are most Spanish immigrants (as the "English" are mainly germanic/nordic.) I don't think anyone can claim "this is our land for our people". We're all humans and we all live together on an increasingly small world - grow up and get on with it.

I'm looking at you too Israel/Palestine (though that's another can of worms!)

[flowwolf]

I honestly think religion has little to do with it; it's just a coverall, an excuse - saying god wants this to happen therefore it must. Started off as a religious thing, but as I see it it's just too many people can't put the past behind them and blood begets blood."You killed ma pappy, so I must kill yours" and of course when the act of revenge is completed then that too must be avenged by the otherside... and so on and so forth.

What I really don't understand is this:

The Republic of Ireland isn't crowded, so if you want Irish governance for Irish people and sod all to do with Britain then go. You can live in a Irish homeland, it's called Ireland. Ireland was divided up because these people couldn't agree which state they wanted ruling them - and I can understand Irish people of those times hating, REALLY, REALLY, hating the British/English, we were absolute gits to them as we have been to many nations - but it seems to me that a choice was made, a deal was done and then a load of Irish people changed their minds. It is tradition that sees the republicans supported by the Catholics and the "unionists" ( I use the term loosely since I can't ever remember any British government or Monarch saying, "well done, we're really pleased you're keeping the flag flying over there!") by the Protestants. In much the same way I can't imagine Jesus saying, "well done boys, how many people did you kill in my name today?"

At the end of the day, the Irish are most Spanish immigrants (as the "English" are mainly germanic/nordic.) I don't think anyone can claim "this is our land for our people". We're all humans and we all live together on an increasingly small world - grow up and get on with it.

I'm looking at you too Israel/Palestine (though that's another can of worms!)

What an absolute cracker of a post, :thumbup: nothing more to say realy except well said Trav.

[Guest MattP]

I honestly think religion has little to do with it; it's just a coverall, an excuse - saying god wants this to happen therefore it must. Started off as a religious thing, but as I see it it's just too many people can't put the past behind them and blood begets blood."You killed ma pappy, so I must kill yours" and of course when the act of revenge is completed then that too must be avenged by the otherside... and so on and so forth.

What I really don't understand is this:

The Republic of Ireland isn't crowded, so if you want Irish governance for Irish people and sod all to do with Britain then go. You can live in a Irish homeland, it's called Ireland. Ireland was divided up because these people couldn't agree which state they wanted ruling them - and I can understand Irish people of those times hating, REALLY, REALLY, hating the British/English, we were absolute gits to them as we have been to many nations - but it seems to me that a choice was made, a deal was done and then a load of Irish people changed their minds. It is tradition that sees the republicans supported by the Catholics and the "unionists" ( I use the term loosely since I can't ever remember any British government or Monarch saying, "well done, we're really pleased you're keeping the flag flying over there!") by the Protestants. In much the same way I can't imagine Jesus saying, "well done boys, how many people did you kill in my name today?"

At the end of the day, the Irish are most Spanish immigrants (as the "English" are mainly germanic/nordic.) I don't think anyone can claim "this is our land for our people". We're all humans and we all live together on an increasingly small world - grow up and get on with it.

I'm looking at you too Israel/Palestine (though that's another can of worms!)

Stunning post. Shame it's a thread that won't get much exposure.

[flowwolf]

Stunning post. Shame it's a thread that won't get much exposure.

Oh I don't know it won't be long until photo shop boy gets to hear about it , then we will be in for all maner of unfunny visual gags. :D

[Guest MattP]

Oh I don't know it won't be long until photo shop boy gets to hear about it , then we will be in for all maner of unfunny visual gags. :D

Hopefully Bobby and his violin case.

[ACF]

I honestly think religion has little to do with it; it's just a coverall, an excuse - saying god wants this to happen therefore it must. Started off as a religious thing, but as I see it it's just too many people can't put the past behind them and blood begets blood."You killed ma pappy, so I must kill yours" and of course when the act of revenge is completed then that too must be avenged by the otherside... and so on and so forth.

What I really don't understand is this:

The Republic of Ireland isn't crowded, so if you want Irish governance for Irish people and sod all to do with Britain then go. You can live in a Irish homeland, it's called Ireland. Ireland was divided up because these people couldn't agree which state they wanted ruling them - and I can understand Irish people of those times hating, REALLY, REALLY, hating the British/English, we were absolute gits to them as we have been to many nations - but it seems to me that a choice was made, a deal was done and then a load of Irish people changed their minds. It is tradition that sees the republicans supported by the Catholics and the "unionists" ( I use the term loosely since I can't ever remember any British government or Monarch saying, "well done, we're really pleased you're keeping the flag flying over there!") by the Protestants. In much the same way I can't imagine Jesus saying, "well done boys, how many people did you kill in my name today?"

At the end of the day, the Irish are most Spanish immigrants (as the "English" are mainly germanic/nordic.) I don't think anyone can claim "this is our land for our people". We're all humans and we all live together on an increasingly small world - grow up and get on with it.

I'm looking at you too Israel/Palestine (though that's another can of worms!)

[FoxyPV]

I honestly think religion has little to do with it; it's just a coverall, an excuse - saying god wants this to happen therefore it must. Started off as a religious thing, but as I see it it's just too many people can't put the past behind them and blood begets blood."You killed ma pappy, so I must kill yours" and of course when the act of revenge is completed then that too must be avenged by the otherside... and so on and so forth.

What I really don't understand is this:

The Republic of Ireland isn't crowded, so if you want Irish governance for Irish people and sod all to do with Britain then go. You can live in a Irish homeland, it's called Ireland. Ireland was divided up because these people couldn't agree which state they wanted ruling them - and I can understand Irish people of those times hating, REALLY, REALLY, hating the British/English, we were absolute gits to them as we have been to many nations - but it seems to me that a choice was made, a deal was done and then a load of Irish people changed their minds. It is tradition that sees the republicans supported by the Catholics and the "unionists" ( I use the term loosely since I can't ever remember any British government or Monarch saying, "well done, we're really pleased you're keeping the flag flying over there!") by the Protestants. In much the same way I can't imagine Jesus saying, "well done boys, how many people did you kill in my name today?"

At the end of the day, the Irish are most Spanish immigrants (as the "English" are mainly germanic/nordic.) I don't think anyone can claim "this is our land for our people". We're all humans and we all live together on an increasingly small world - grow up and get on with it.

I'm looking at you too Israel/Palestine (though that's another can of worms!)

Two state solutions do not work especially when there is a cultural / ethnic difference at the heart of it. Here and Israel/ Palestine confirm that.

The choice was made by the unionist govt at the time who wanted to stay part of the UK but realised that a 6 county solution was the only feasible way forward in order for the new state of NI to be taken seriously. A four county solution meant that they had a massive in built majority but it was felt this option left NI too small and vunerable yet a 9 county solution meant that there would be a catholic majority and that the unionists would lose power. The south would not have let a 9 county option happen regardless but were content to lose Armagh and Fermanagh to ensure some semblance of peace.

I wouldn't say that anyone chnaged their minds, just that there was a sizeable minority who found themselves and their families continuing to live within a british state when they may have chose otherwise had the option been available to them. The Free State was a rural economy at the time of partition so for all those people in Belfast and the like who had industrial jobs, there would have been no work for them had they decided to move south.

The demographics of NI mean that soon those from a perceived RC background will outnumber their protestant counterparts and it will be interesting to see what happens in the next 50 years. Although I still can't see a united Ireland happening.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, it's a bit glib to say if you don't like the nation that has sovereignty and governance over you, **** off across the border to the place that does meet your beliefs.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Two state solutions do not work especially when there is a cultural / ethnic difference at the heart of it. Here and Israel/ Palestine confirm that.

The choice was made by the unionist govt at the time who wanted to stay part of the UK but realised that a 6 county solution was the only feasible way forward in order for the new state of NI to be taken seriously. A four county solution meant that they had a massive in built majority but it was felt this option left NI too small and vunerable yet a 9 county solution meant that there would be a catholic majority and that the unionists would lose power. The south would not have let a 9 county option happen regardless but were content to lose Armagh and Fermanagh to ensure some semblance of peace.

I wouldn't say that anyone chnaged their minds, just that there was a sizeable minority who found themselves and their families continuing to live within a british state when they may have chose otherwise had the option been available to them. The Free State was a rural economy at the time of partition so for all those people in Belfast and the like who had industrial jobs, there would have been no work for them had they decided to move south.

The demographics of NI mean that soon those from a perceived RC background will outnumber their protestant counterparts and it will be interesting to see what happens in the next 50 years. Although I still can't see a united Ireland happening.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, it's a bit glib to say if you don't like the nation that has sovereignty and governance over you, **** off across the border to the place that does meet your beliefs.

I appreciate that, but then, so many people actually do it. Think of all the ex-pats in Spain who were fed up of Britain being taxed to the hilt (and who surprisingly want back in as soon as they contract a life-threatening illness.) People want their cake and eat it. LIFE ISN'T PERFECT - you just make the best you can of it. The UK of 2012 is not Nazi Germany, it's not even the UK of 1912. As states go, it's very tolerable when you look around the world. As is Ireland. In fact, tax rates and a few lesser laws aside, there's practically no difference to being Irish and being British to my mind. I'd quite happily emigrate to Ireland - it's a nice place and no need to make any huge changes. Like I said if what matters to you is the fact that the piece of earth you reside on is called Ireland, what's stopping you?

[flowwolf]

I would just like to say thanks to all the contributers on this thread, it has been informative and well conducted. That in it's self makes a nice change.

[FoxyPV]

Watching BBC1 at the moment is making me even more embarrassed to reside in this theocratic, regressive, shitty backwater .

****ing sickening!