Tigers Toulouse

[Guest MattP]

It's so rare it's not really worth an amendment to the rules. Yesterday was a freak, the side with the vested interest in the game stopping are nearly alwaysgoing to smack it straight out.

Toulouse had to take a chance sacking the scrum half, him dropping it was their risk to take.

Referees are very on the ball in rugby, if Clancy felt there was any cynicism there he'd have punished Tigers.

You'd have games going on forever if you started changing rules like that, you want to win a game you've the eighty odd minutes beforehand to get it done.

Rugby is an unforgiving game in its rules really, less pampering than football.

Fair enough. I dont watch enough to see how often it happens, just seems a bit strange the rules can allow a team can benefit from their own mistake.

[Finnegan]

Fair enough. I dont watch enough to see how often it happens, just seems a bit strange the rules can allow a team can benefit from their own mistake.

I appreciate it's a bit backwards but, as I say, its a freak and unlikely consequence of a sensible blanket rule.

[Guest]

It makes sense if you aren't either thick or being deliberately obtuse.

Saints and Tigers have historically always had financial clout and, obviously, so now do Sarries.

But the English league on the whole is a fairly poor one and the smaller clubs need the cap for parity. The like of Quins, Irish and Wasps have come to achieve better things in the sport since financial restrictions enforced a more level playing field.

Might not seem "fair" to Tigers fans but it's better for your national league on the whole.

The Welsh regions, for example, aren't losing their best players because we have a wage cap, we're losing our best players because we can't afford them because we're smaller clubs.

The wage cap is merely an aside.

So I'm thick because I don't agree with you?

a level playing field doesn't make our rugby better at all. What it has done is stop the richer well supported clubs from using their cash to get the players they could, therefore some of these players have gone to France where they can spend more.

We don't put a cap on the salaries of our businessman to make our business better. It's simply a false idea.

What it does is weakens the best teams in the league whilst making foreign teams stronger. The result is that the Foreign teams are more likely to win the honours and this will have a detrimental effect on the amount of money coming in for English teams. It'll become a vicious circle.

It has weakened the Tigers and put them on an uneven playing field with French teams.

I find the idea of regional teams even more ludicrous. That simply reduces the number of teams and means you have to travel further to see your "local" team. It crtainly worked for Irish teams in the H cup initially but even that has faltered now.

Why any Leicester or Northampton supporter would want to lose their team for an East Mids team is beyond me.

I guess you'd be happy with an amalgamated Leicester/Forest/rams team would you? Be serious!!

Now you can return to your name calling because I don't agree with you on another topic.

[Guest]

And I'm not sure why you are holding the welsh up as a beacon. Their teams have become very poor in club competitions and this has a knock on effect to their national side.

[Finnegan]

And I'm not sure why you are holding the welsh up as a beacon. Their teams have become very poor in club competitions and this has a knock on effect to their national side.

Yeah, Welsh clubs really are struggling domestically. I suppose that's why the Ospreys are the most decorated club in the Celtic League with four championships out of the nine competed in in the bag. Once champions Scarlets and twice runners up Cardiff have really let the country down, too.

Can't argue with a huge knock on effect to our national side, either. That's why we've won three Grand Slams since we regionalized during which time the best the English have mustered is a solitary four-win Championship in which they failed to pick up so much as the tripple crown, let alone a slam.

Oh how we suffer.

Do you even follow the sport?

So I'm thick because I don't agree with you?

I didn't call you thick, I offered it up as one of two possibilities. If it makes you feel better I actually was swaying more for 'deliberately obtuse.' I'm quite confident you knew exactly what I meant because it wasn't an opinion, it was a fairly obvious fact, and I don't actually think you ARE that retarded.

a level playing field doesn't make our rugby better at all. What it has done is stop the richer well supported clubs from using their cash to get the players they could, therefore some of these players have gone to France where they can spend more.

You need the salary cap to keep the other clubs in business, simple as that. Club rugby is fragile, most of England's clubs are tiny non-entities that would be blown away by European rugby's constant modernization if there were no restrictions to force parity. I get your Tigers bias and it's fair enough but given the status quo is hardly holding you back I don't see why you're bleating. You've still got half the England squad on your books and are in no real danger of losing them.

The reason the French are beating you in the Heineken Cup at the moment is largely because the French are better than you at rugby at the moment. The Tigers have a lot of England internationals, the French clubs have a lot of French internationals. French players are better, ergo they're beating you (though Hooky, Byrne and co' giving them a hand certainly can't hurt!)

Meanwhile it's the likes of Sale, Wasps and co' - who operate well below the cap - who are struggling to hold on to their better players. Not because they're not ALLOWED to pay them more but because they can't AFFORD to pay them more or they'd go under.

I find the idea of regional teams even more ludicrous. That simply reduces the number of teams and means you have to travel further to see your "local" team. It crtainly worked for Irish teams in the H cup initially but even that has faltered now.

Why any Leicester or Northampton supporter would want to lose their team for an East Mids team is beyond me.

I guess you'd be happy with an amalgamated Leicester/Forest/rams team would you? Be serious!!

I was pretty obviously taking the piss. Bristol / Bath are fierce rivals, Saints / Tigers is like the United / Liverpool of English rugby. It was a tongue in cheek remark referencing the fact that when they built the Welsh regions based on local areas they ended up making teams out of old and fierce rivals. Neath-Swansea under one banner, Ponty-Bridgend under another, etc. It caused uproar and was massively unpopular and is still now considered one of the reasons the regions are currently deemed to be failing off the pitch.

Though I do think that's an issue fairly unique to us, you can't really compare the environment of local Welsh rugby clubs to the sport in England, Scotland or France. Local rugby is a cultural phenomena in South Wales and old traditions and rivalries are still very important.

[ADK]

While i do occasionally watch rugby, it dosn't seem that interesting. Usually boils down to who has the best football player. From what i could gather toulouse had the better of the game but their footballer wasn't any good so we won.

[Finnegan]

While i do occasionally watch rugby, it dosn't seem that interesting. Usually boils down to who has the best football player. From what i could gather toulouse had the better of the game but their footballer wasn't any good so we won.

lol !!

[Guest]

Yeah, Welsh clubs really are struggling domestically. I suppose that's why the Ospreys are the most decorated club in the Celtic League with four championships out of the nine competed in in the bag. Once champions Scarlets and twice runners up Cardiff have really let the country down, too.

Can't argue with a huge knock on effect to our national side, either. That's why we've won three Grand Slams since we regionalized during which time the best the English have mustered is a solitary four-win Championship in which they failed to pick up so much as the tripple crown, let alone a slam.

Oh how we suffer.

How many Welsh teams have made the knockout stage of the Heineken cup this year?

when did a Welsh team last win the Heineken cup?

Why are Wales ranked in the third tier of teams for the World Cup?

Pull your head out of your ass and look at the PRESENT state of Welsh team rugby.

[Guest]

You need the salary cap to keep the other clubs in business, simple as that. Club rugby is fragile, most of England's clubs are tiny non-entities that would be blown away by European rugby's constant modernization if there were no restrictions to force parity.

There is no parity when all teams in a competition do not operate under the same restrictions. Your form of parity just weakens the English clubs compared to others. that isn't good for the English game.

[Guest]

Local rugby is a cultural phenomena in South Wales and old traditions and rivalries are still very important.

And this is a crime. Rugby is an innate part iof the Welsh persona.

[Guest MattP]

[Finnegan]

How many Welsh teams have made the knockout stage of the Heineken cup this year?

when did a Welsh team last win the Heineken cup?

Why are Wales ranked in the third tier of teams for the World Cup?

Pull your head out of your ass and look at the PRESENT state of Welsh team rugby.

The present state of Welsh rugby? We're the reigning grand slam champions, we just narrowly missed out on a world cup final to a controversial red card, we've got some of the best young backs in the Northern hemisphere and the Ospreys are the current domestic title holders.

We've dropped in the world rankings, yes, after a terrible Autumn series in which we were without a fair amount of our starting fifteen to injury and without our head coach because he's on Lions duty.

We're rightfully third favourites for this year's 6N, we are obviously in a dip of form, but you compare what we have now to what we had pre-regions?

We were annual wooden spoon fodder, we got smashed in the world cup, we'd drop eighty odd points to the likes of Australia, we'd never adapted to the modern game.

You seem completely and totally hung up on the Heineken Cup. That doesn't surprise me, most casual fans are, but it's not the be all and end all. Priority for any club should be it's own domestic league. Any RFU is going to set out it's rules and regulations with that competition in mind, not the Heineken Cup.

We don't compete so well in the HC because we don't have the clout of the French clubs. Not because of a salary cap but because we're little teams. Biarritz, Toulouse, Stade, Metro, Toulon, Clermont, these are huge sporting powers from - for the most part - big French cities. Llanelli is a town of a few thousand by comparison, our clubs get about ten thousand in the ground if we're lucky.

We don't win the Heineken Cup for the same reason Sparta Prague don't win the CL, in the modern game we're tiny. Regions didn't do that to us, nor did salary caps. Its just life.

You want Tigers to forgo the cap then they're going to have to start pushing for a European league because while they're shackled by the English league system the status quo will remain. And rightly so.

[Sparky]

I think the Welsh regions have done extremley well to win that many domestic titles when they are up against European giants like Leinster, Munster and more recently Ulster who are all very strong sides. The Heineken Cup is a wonderful tournament, sothern hemisphere players often mention that is the reason they come to Europe. Its a mystery to me why the Welsh haven't done better though. The Scarlets team that Tigers beat in the semi a few years back were a fantastic team to watch and Cardiff Blues also reached a semi. In club rugby no matter if its Wales, France, Ireland or England the holy grail is the Heineken Cup. What i cant argue with is the performance of the Welsh national side, the only problem for me is they fail to live with the expectation once they win a grand slam or get to a World Cup semi. Its as if they have to be the underdog to get the best out of them.

[Guest]

You seem completely and totally hung up on the Heineken Cup. That doesn't surprise me, most casual fans are, but it's not the be all and end all. Priority for any club should be it's own domestic league. Any RFU is going to set out it's rules and regulations with that competition in mind, not the Heineken Cup.

You kid yourself if you think that the domestic league is more important than the European Cups. Domestic leagues are so unimportant that the Welsh/Irish and Scots have scrapped theirs for the top teams and moved towards a euroleague. And your childish comment about me being a casual fan is apoor attempt to move the argument away from the facts.

[Guest]

Not because of a salary cap but because we're little teams.

Again this is wrong. I spoke with Richard only a few months ago and he is clear that the Salary cap is restricting the Tigers attempts to beat the French.

I find your comments on the French teams uneducated. Nearly all French Rugby union teams are in the south (and mostly SW) of France. There is not a large distance between them.

Do you know the population of Biarritz - who you named - perhaps compare it to the population of Leicester and other teams before you say it's because of size and regional dominance.

The French teams are good because they love their rugby, work hard are trained well and can spend more money on players giving them the pick of talent from the Southern Hemisphere and now from England too.

[Finnegan]

Banging my head on a ****ing wall here, aren't I? I take it back, you ARE dense.

I'm not talking exclusively about the Tigers. Leicester are a one-off, a super club, probably the only Northern Hemisphere side (except maybe Toulouse) that's worthy of comparison to Super Rugby sides.

The salary cap is supposed to be holding them back, that it's doing so is a sign it's working. Complaining your Heineken Cup effort is damaged as a result is completely missing the point. The cap is there to defend the smaller clubs, without whom YOU DON'T HAVE A LEAGUE.

Jesus.

You want the RFU to do something, get your internationals on central contracts to top up their salaries and force them to stay at English clubs.

[Finnegan]

Besides, who are the Tigers losing to France exactly? The last high profile transfer was Castro and that fell through because you satisfied his wage demands.

[Guest]

Besides, who are the Tigers losing to France exactly? The last high profile transfer was Castro and that fell through because you satisfied his wage demands.

So maybe you don't follow as well as you make out. There are a few players that the Tigers wanted to sign but couldn't. In fact every signature and re-signature is dependant on the CAP.

But because I disagree with you I must be dense/thick. I may be wrong in some things but you are as blinkered as the people you critisize in the General forum. Your empathy skills are severely lacking considering the work that I understand you have done/do.

I think this "conversation" has gone as far as it can. time to move on.

[Finnegan]

Ugh, whatever. You've got no interest in listening and discussing rugby you just want to get on your soap box and cry that life is unfair for the country's biggest club.

[Guest]

Ugh, whatever. You've got no interest in listening and discussing rugby you just want to get on your soap box and cry that life is unfair for the country's biggest club.

[Guest]

Anyone watching this afternoon?

Those who feel the need to turn this into a Football> Rugby debate need not reply.

[leicsmac]

I'll be keeping an eye.

Sadly I think Toulon at home are probably the most formidable team in club rugby and they'll have too much for us.

Hope I'm wrong though...if we come through this one it'll be the biggest win for Tigers since being the only team to beat Munster at Thomond in the HC.

[leicsmac]

Thought the match started at 5.30 BST, not 5.30 GMT

9-6 to the Tigers at half time - decent showing so far, but Floods 10 minutes off has allowed Toulon back into this.

[Guest Bilo]

Winning 9-6 at the moment, so the cap isn't having too much of an impact.

On the note of the cap, how boring would be the Premiership be if it wasn't in place? Tigers would destroy the league every year and it'd suffer from the same kind of monopoly the SPL will suffer from for the next few years.

[Guest]

Indeed.

Tigers seem like they're in a confident mood though. We've been more consistent in terms of errors so far but I can't imagine they'll have it all their own way second half.